Why not make Skyshards and Mages Books account bound.

Siohwenoeht · March 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

If it's changed to what you want, the people on the other side will be upset.

So, while I understand that this seems to be true, what I can't wrap my head around is why. You say that the value is subjective and clearly that must be the case (though I tend to think it's actually just pettiness), but I can't figure out what value there is at all in repeating these.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

The grind is self imposed.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

but my last alt to reach level 50 had 80% of the skyshards complete just by playing, not actively searching them out.

So? It sounds like it's not so much "play your way" as it is "play your way so long as it's how I want you to play" when you say things like this. So I should avoid PVP altogether so eventually I'll have encountered all of the shards and books that you have? That's pretty selfish and petty. This isn't a fun game mechanic for me at all and changing it to better suit my needs doesn't in any way take away from how you want to play. Keeping it so it meets your preference does impact how I want to play though, so no, we're not exactly being fair.

Fair would be to mark a waypoint on the map when you first pickup a skyshard, lorebook or close a rift and then add the actual item to your account-wide inventory. YOU can revisit the waypoint however many times you want, while I can just have fond memories and get on with my life when my alt hits 50.

I'm sorry if my example of my latest alt was misconstrued, the only point I was making was that skyshards/lorebooks are only a grind if the player makes them one. Simply levelling your character and picking them up when you see them will give you more than enough skill points. Unless, of course, the player chooses to level by grinding dolmens/skyreach etc.

I can't understand why someone would want to play that way but I'm not making threads insisting that playstyle be altered or eliminated.

Again, my example was to show how easy it is to actually pick up skyshards and books without grinding for them but you think that is selfish and petty.

ANY grind is only a grind because the player makes it one. Tell you what, eliminate skyshards as a mechanism for skill points. Make them the "points of interest." I'll bet those skill points are put behind some other mechanic that some players won't enjoy either. It's a never ending cycle.

Make a shared way point account wide after picking them up. Then alts can go straight for them.

starkerealm · March 2019

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

That's the thing. Skill points as a whole? No. I think the 143 from Skyshards is a middle ground. It's enough to significantly accelerate character advancement, without completely breaking advancement.

I'm not sure if you saw the furnishing suggestion above, but that would 108 Skill Points for the base game map (I think), with a significantly higher TV/voucher costs per point after that, also requiring that you'd completed the related Skyshard hunter achievements. So, that might be a more viable option than just going, "okay, here, have it, go wild."

The furnishing option could be a possible solution. At the very least, I DO think that skyshards/lore books should appear on the map for everyone without the use of addons.

Interesting note about Lorebooks: There's three or four locations for each. So, puting those on the map gets pretty cluttered. That said, the addon does have a feature where lorebooks (and/or skyshards) will only show up once certain prerequisites are met. Like clearing the adventurer achievement, the explorer achievement, or finishing the zone's main quest. I could see some system where lorebooks are highlighted on the map based on some prerequisite, or if they're on the compass (which is also an option in the addon.)

Here's a screenshot:

It's a little messy, and I am cheating a little bit, because I have Editic Memory turned on as well, there. Even just activating the compass markers for undiscovered books would be a huge help to the console crowd, though.

heaven13 wrote: »

However, I think if ZoS ever came out with a skyshard catch-up type mechanic like this, it would likely be crown store only similar to riding lessons. Either you collect them as intended, or you pay x amount of crowns for all skyshards in a single zone for a single character. Probably wouldn't include Cyro as an option, or DLC zones (because that would probably be more coding work to run check if person owns DLC or is ESO+ and therefore should have access to those skyshards in the first place).

If it's tied directly to the achievements, then it wouldn't really matter if either owning the DLC or having ESO+, it will indicate that at some point the player did have access to the zone. Ironically, I would be a little surprised if this made it into the crown store.

That said, and this is backend stuff I'm not really sure of. But it might be possible to have the furniture set a flag if you log in on a character with the achievement, unlocking that furnishing's ability to grant you the shards, and if that flag hadn't been set simply marking the unknown shards on the map.

srfrogg23 · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not enough to have CP be account wide? That was specifically designed to make the game more alt friendly as a player reward for playing the game.

It's an outlook question. What does your game value? The sanctity of the character as a role-playing tool, or the player as someone who controls their character.

This isn't a binary thing either. There were account wide unlocks before Champion Points were a thing. The first ones were a little harder to see. Like the Palomino and Imperial Horses, which were still sold to the player, but only cost one gold. Then the Dye System was added.

Champion points are an awkward concession. It's a bend of the idea that, as an MMO, the game needs a long form character advancement system. Many players, if they get to "the end," will get bored and wander off. Veteran Ranks were designed to alleviate that, but it was still finite. CP was an attempt to skirt around that, still providing a long term advancement ladder, but also providing concessions to the idea that grinding endlessly wouldn't be fun.

I mean, there were problems. Without a spending cap, some people rocketed away to the point that there were several players with over 1k CP before the spending caps were implemented.

Once the caps did come in, that became the new, "level cap," that a lot of people viewed as mandatory for "true endgame," even though the entire system was designed to subvert that.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points are specific to a character. If EVERYTHING that SOMEONE thinks is boring is made account wide, then why bother with a leveling system?

Except, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about specific systems that are... let's say, "without repetitive entertainment value." It's not that collecting skyshards is boring, it's that once you've done it a couple times, (and I do mean collect them all), the novelty factor starts to wear out.

At least with Lorebooks, they do have multiple potential locations, so you can stumble across one in the wrong place as a nice surprise. You don't get that if you're using an addon, or looking up guide, but an attempt was made.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why bother with progression systems at all?

At that point, the important question to ask is, "which systems improve the player's experience, and which do not?"

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Just make a lobby based adventure game with character archetypes like Team Fortress 2.

Amusingly, DCUO has this as an optional mode. So, someone did. And... it's not that great.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wonder why they dont make a PvE version of Overwatch? Maybe because it would be boring as hell?

Blizarrd did. Apparently the dayjob element was what dragged down the experience. You were creating your own superhero, but you also were expected to do stuff as your alter ego.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is an RPG.

In 2019, that classification has become so vague as to be meaningless. Dark Souls is an RPG. Far Cry 5 has RPG-elements. Destiny is an RPG. The Division is an RPG. The XCOM reboot and XCOM 2 could be called Tactical RPGs. Everything in the Immersive Sim sub-genre is an RPG.

ESO is an RPG, but everything after having a basic progression system, is up in the air.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Progression systems and character specialization are important aspects of the RPG genre.

And yet, the last two single player games from Bethesda Game Studios eschewed this entire concept, in favor of temporary focuses that could eventually be leveled past.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points, skyshards, lorebooks, and yes, some grinding are the ways that this game facilitates those mechanisms.

Currently. Sort of. Skyshards and Lorebooks are collectibles. There's compelling reasons for Lorebooks to be per character (again, fresh characters with Meteor would be a bad situation.)

However, the actual purpose of skyshards is to get you to explore the world. Look at the cryptic hints in the achievement. They're out there, and the team wants you to poke around looking for them. They're there to encourage you to take in the sights.

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

Just because you think it is boring or pointless doesn't mean that the alternative you are presenting is better. First, you're arguing for this change based of the mistaken belief that everyone needs all of them to play the game. It has been established that as long as you're not sitting in one place grinding mobs to 50, you should have enough books and skyshards at max level to be viable for end game with minimal preparation.

Second, you are focusing too intently on skyshards. I'm certain the intent was NOT for players to use a 3rd party guide to go on a personal quest to pick up all skyshards one after another. Yeah - that's going to be boring as hell just running from one skyshard to the next. You're supposed to pick them up while you're doing the quest content and zone exploration.

No. The development team does not need to bend over backwards to implement a change like this because you and some others insist on trying to play "efficiently" by powering through 50 levels as quickly as possible then opening a guide and doing nothing else other than hunting down 143 skyshards over the span of a few hours.

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

ArenGesus · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

The one nitpick there is just the Cyrodiil shards, specifically the hostile Temple shards, so that was why I was suggesting the original block of... I think 324 skyshards should be a group. Specifically to avoid devaluing that element of collecting the base game shards. Though, at the same time, there is a dye and a furnishing (a replica Skyshard) associated with that achievement. Also, it occurs to me, that giving players the shard in the Wailing Prison may break things. So, yeah, not completely opposed to the idea of even further fracturing.

That said, every post launch zone, including Craglorn? Yeah. So, if you wanted the IC's you'd need to get all 13 in there first, then with that achievement, and the vouchers or TV, you could grab the map for your alts.

TV's kinda a weird currency, because there's not really much to do with it, and for it to work, people need to be willing to fight over it. I think that's why the containers have TV costs, but I could be mistaken about that thought process.

My suggestion for breaking them into zones is more to meet a larger set of play styles - a lot of people will never PVP, so locking the collectibles behind TV and making it so you have to clear Cyrodiil before you get them will just be a different way of forcing some players to play in a way that they don't want to in order to gain access - which is something this thread is basically all about undoing.

Zone clears are a good breakdown in my opinion for a couple of reasons - you already have achievements in-game for them and this would just be an additional collectible to go along with something that already exists. Also, it means that you have the ability to earn the achievement for the number of zones you're likely to want to make use of. I'm thinking of PVP players here, who are less likely to spend all of their time grinding away open-world if they don't have to. They can pick up a couple of zones (Cyrodiil being one of them) and then get back to what they really would rather be doing.

starkerealm · March 2019

eso_lags wrote: »

Zos should just stop being lazy and give console players a lorebook and skyshard map in the base game. But zos is out of touch with the game, community, and especially the console community.

And PC players shouldn't even comment negatively on this because they have the add ons, which make it 10000 times easier, so they could never understand. .

I do understand. I was playing back when there were no addons for them, and before there were maps online. I remember.

I'll just double post this:

Skyshards + Lorebooks, without any setting applied to clean things up, is very messy. Like, it looks messy. I'm all for them being put on your compass, and I think the filters options being there but set to off wouldn't be the worst thing, but, yeah, this does not look great. It's also a little misleading, because Glenumbra looks better than most zones, when they're turned on.

That said, the compass options? You should have those, no question.

ghastley · March 2019

The latest alts that I've levelled up have around 100-120 skill points, of which 64 came just from the levelling process itself.

I have chosen mostly to collect skyshards for the remainder, but I could equally have done more skill-point-rewarding quests in Cadwell's Silver/Gold instead. I've done a bit of that along the way, because those quests and the skyshards are often in the same general area.

I'm not going to create a new one just to see if it's possible to get there without any skyshards at all, because I think at least one MQ quest requires you to use a skyshard to advance. But apart from that, it does seem possible to avoid all other skyshards, and still have a completely built character.

Since those characters have different classes and skill sets, (or I wouldn't have bothered creating them), I need to run them through the learning process of actually playing the game, so they advance their skills to the point where I can spend the points. That's the grind that you can't avoid - learning the skills, which also means learning, as a player, how to use them.

starkerealm · March 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

The one nitpick there is just the Cyrodiil shards, specifically the hostile Temple shards, so that was why I was suggesting the original block of... I think 324 skyshards should be a group. Specifically to avoid devaluing that element of collecting the base game shards. Though, at the same time, there is a dye and a furnishing (a replica Skyshard) associated with that achievement. Also, it occurs to me, that giving players the shard in the Wailing Prison may break things. So, yeah, not completely opposed to the idea of even further fracturing.

That said, every post launch zone, including Craglorn? Yeah. So, if you wanted the IC's you'd need to get all 13 in there first, then with that achievement, and the vouchers or TV, you could grab the map for your alts.

TV's kinda a weird currency, because there's not really much to do with it, and for it to work, people need to be willing to fight over it. I think that's why the containers have TV costs, but I could be mistaken about that thought process.

My suggestion for breaking them into zones is more to meet a larger set of play styles - a lot of people will never PVP, so locking the collectibles behind TV and making it so you have to clear Cyrodiil before you get them will just be a different way of forcing some players to play in a way that they don't want to in order to gain access - which is something this thread is basically all about undoing.

Zone clears are a good breakdown in my opinion for a couple of reasons - you already have achievements in-game for them and this would just be an additional collectible to go along with something that already exists. Also, it means that you have the ability to earn the achievement for the number of zones you're likely to want to make use of. I'm thinking of PVP players here, who are less likely to spend all of their time grinding away open-world if they don't have to. They can pick up a couple of zones (Cyrodiil being one of them) and then get back to what they really would rather be doing.

Yeah, that's a fair point. It leaves two orphan shards. The one in the Wailing Prison and the lone one in Cyrodiil. Though, I suppose, Cyrodiil could be sold as a single zone (requiring all four achievements) and nothing would be lost. So, yeah, that is a valid point.

I was thinking of avoiding granularity somewhat... but, at the same time, if you could actually look at the maps and see the shards on them, that would be pretty cool. It'd also be much harder if you had a meta-achievement one which wrapped up the base game's 20/22 zones into a single map.

heaven13 · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

I do somewhat agree with you here, @starkerealm.

Unfortunately, skillpoints are tied to skyshards, at least 143 of them. There could always be a game update to decouple skyshards from skillpoints, where shards are only an exploration achievement (akin to the Lightbringer, I like M'aiq, etc achievements) but those skillpoints would have to go somewhere and I doubt that the people that want the associated skillpoints made accountwide would prefer a different method of acquiring them.

That's the thing. Skill points as a whole? No. I think the 143 from Skyshards is a middle ground. It's enough to significantly accelerate character advancement, without completely breaking advancement.

I'm not sure if you saw the furnishing suggestion above, but that would 108 Skill Points for the base game map (I think), with a significantly higher TV/voucher costs per point after that, also requiring that you'd completed the related Skyshard hunter achievements. So, that might be a more viable option than just going, "okay, here, have it, go wild."

The furnishing option could be a possible solution. At the very least, I DO think that skyshards/lore books should appear on the map for everyone without the use of addons.

Interesting note about Lorebooks: There's three or four locations for each. So, puting those on the map gets pretty cluttered. That said, the addon does have a feature where lorebooks (and/or skyshards) will only show up once certain prerequisites are met. Like clearing the adventurer achievement, the explorer achievement, or finishing the zone's main quest. I could see some system where lorebooks are highlighted on the map based on some prerequisite, or if they're on the compass (which is also an option in the addon.)

Here's a screenshot:

It's a little messy, and I am cheating a little bit, because I have Editic Memory turned on as well, there. Even just activating the compass markers for undiscovered books would be a huge help to the console crowd, though.

heaven13 wrote: »

However, I think if ZoS ever came out with a skyshard catch-up type mechanic like this, it would likely be crown store only similar to riding lessons. Either you collect them as intended, or you pay x amount of crowns for all skyshards in a single zone for a single character. Probably wouldn't include Cyro as an option, or DLC zones (because that would probably be more coding work to run check if person owns DLC or is ESO+ and therefore should have access to those skyshards in the first place).

If it's tied directly to the achievements, then it wouldn't really matter if either owning the DLC or having ESO+, it will indicate that at some point the player did have access to the zone. Ironically, I would be a little surprised if this made it into the crown store.

That said, and this is backend stuff I'm not really sure of. But it might be possible to have the furniture set a flag if you log in on a character with the achievement, unlocking that furnishing's ability to grant you the shards, and if that flag hadn't been set simply marking the unknown shards on the map.

I was going off the assumption that IF skyshards became a crown store purchase (rather than an in-game purchase with gold/telvar) they would not require achievements, similar to how buying housing with crowns bypasses the achievements necessary for gold purchase.

I actually quite like that last suggestion - have a particular zone's achievements on a particular character when viewing the skyshard item would grant them to that alt. Not having the achievements marks on map. Something similar could be done for lorebooks so if you complete the storyline for the Mages Guild and interact with the purchasable books on an alt (maybe some additional giant reference book because holy crap the furnishing slots it takes for the collections is insane), that alt gets all the lorebooks checked off as collected. If you haven't completed the story, interacting with the book marks where on the map that book was found.

I like it. Could definitely get behind this kind of compromise which is a step above the "can see on map compromise" but not so 'gimme' that there's no effort involved at all other than just creating the alt itself or leveling it to 50.

ArenGesus · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

if you had a meta-achievement one which wrapped up the base game's 20/22 zones into a single map.

Yes, like a huge tapestry map you can hang on the wall of your manor. That would be enough to get at least some people to try for 100% completion. The in-game achievements are lacking true motivators at the moment anyway, in my opinion.

Edit: I think I misread your comment a little. But what I thought you were suggesting is that there could also be a larger achievement for full completion, which would also be really cool - I think not what you were saying though...

starkerealm · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

The game is fine.

Sure. However, that is not a valid reason to avoid looking for ways to further improve it.

Tandor · March 2019

eso_lags wrote: »

Zos should just stop being lazy and give console players a lorebook and skyshard map in the base game. But zos is out of touch with the game, community, and especially the console community.

And PC players shouldn't even comment negatively on this because they have the add ons, which make it 10000 times easier, so they could never understand. .

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

ArenGesus · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

ArenGesus · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

1. Finding random points on a map is not "playing".
2. I still can't see an actual argument against. So, you don't see the point of making the change. That doesn't mean others don't. I don't get how this negatively impacts you in any way whatsoever. And I'm willing to bet you can't either.

srfrogg23 · March 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

The game is fine.

Sure. However, that is not a valid reason to avoid looking for ways to further improve it.

Ok. Let us know when you actually have a suggestion that will improve the game.

srfrogg23 · March 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

1. Finding random points on a map is not "playing".
2. I still can't see an actual argument against. So, you don't see the point of making the change. That doesn't mean others don't. I don't get how this negatively impacts you in any way whatsoever. And I'm willing to bet you can't either.

I don't believe we will ever find the true Scottsman, either. But, while we're looking, we might get lucky and stumble upon a skyshard or 3.

Tandor · March 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all. Optional changes to the main structure of the game also means the developers having to run two different and readily interchangeable systems alongside each other - a recipe for disaster in terms of both the complexity of the coding and the effect on performance.

As for people who play exclusively for PvP, there are plenty of PvP-only titles which are often based around the instant creation of fully maxed and well-balanced characters which is what they are arguing for here in a game that isn't designed around that agenda. If they choose instead to play a PvE-centred title with optional PvP then they should accept that they can't expect to dictate the form of the PvE in the open world - just as I don't expect as a PvE player to dictate the form of the PvP in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, or in some other game that is centred around PvP with optional PvE.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all.

Okay, now I'm confused. Isn't that the exact argument that has been brought up to defend the counterposition that skyshards should not be account-wide? That it is entirely optional to collect them, because you really don't need them to make viable end-game builds? So now you're saying that you do need them actually? I really don't get it.

And let's be honest, people get kicked from groups anyway for completely irrational reasons that have nothing to do with those players actual performance in a lot of cases. Just because lots of people are jerks. Having more skill points or not would change nothing about that.

ArenGesus · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all. Optional changes to the main structure of the game also means the developers having to run two different and readily interchangeable systems alongside each other - a recipe for disaster in terms of both the complexity of the coding and the effect on performance.

As for people who play exclusively for PvP, there are plenty of PvP-only titles which are often based around the instant creation of fully maxed and well-balanced characters which is what they are arguing for here in a game that isn't designed around that agenda. If they choose instead to play a PvE-centred title with optional PvP then they should accept that they can't expect to dictate the form of the PvE in the open world - just as I don't expect as a PvE player to dictate the form of the PvP in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, or in some other game that is centred around PvP with optional PvE.

Oh please, nobody is getting kicked for not having skill points. If that were the case it would be happening already because it is possible to grind for them today - the only thing different would be the lack of time sink for those who do, otherwise no appreciable difference whatsoever. And none for you, period.

And if you're trying to play competitive content, you're going to have these points regardless - you'll just have gone through the grind. Two different, interchangeable systems? What are you talking about? You go visit places where the waypoints are. I won't. It's one system. It benefits neither of us over the other and takes nothing away from your game play because you still get to go to those map locations while I don't have to.

I think you're just being silly and resistant for no reason, so I guess it's not worth discussing. There are good suggestions in this thread for actual changes, but it's not worth trying to discuss them with somebody who is just going to point at straw men regardless of the suggestion or its merit.

Androconium · March 2019

Good grief.

Tandor · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all.

Okay, now I'm confused. Isn't that the exact argument that has been brought up to defend the counterposition that skyshards should not be account-wide? That it is entirely optional to collect them, because you really don't need them to make viable end-game builds? So now you're saying that you do need them actually? I really don't get it.

And let's be honest, people get kicked from groups anyway for completely irrational reasons that have nothing to do with those players actual performance in a lot of cases. Just because lots of people are jerks. Having more skill points or not would change nothing about that.

I don't see where the confusion arises. I said that making the easy availability of them on an account-wide basis optional wouldn't work, and to answer your second point it would be yet another unfounded reason to kick people as well as removing the level playing field for those competitive players who opted not to use account-wide skill points they hadn't earned on that particular character. As you rightly say, elitist jerks kick players for no good reason already, this would just give them further cause in their minds to do so.

CassandraGemini · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all.

Okay, now I'm confused. Isn't that the exact argument that has been brought up to defend the counterposition that skyshards should not be account-wide? That it is entirely optional to collect them, because you really don't need them to make viable end-game builds? So now you're saying that you do need them actually? I really don't get it.

And let's be honest, people get kicked from groups anyway for completely irrational reasons that have nothing to do with those players actual performance in a lot of cases. Just because lots of people are jerks. Having more skill points or not would change nothing about that.

I don't see where the confusion arises. I said that making the easy availability of them on an account-wide basis optional wouldn't work, and to answer your second point it would be yet another unfounded reason to kick people as well as removing the level playing field for those competitive players who opted not to use account-wide skill points they hadn't earned on that particular character. As you rightly say, elitist jerks kick players for no good reason already, this would just give them further cause in their minds to do so.

I was confused (or still am a little honestly, but I can't quite say if that's because we're kind of talking past each other or if I misinterpret something of what you wrote, because I'm not a native speaker) because it has been pointed out so many times in this thread by people who are against account-wide skyshards that there's no real reason to make them available for every toon since you don't even need that many skill points for viable builds. Which might be true, depending on how you play, but it is also beside the point of what we're actually talking about here. Anyway, now instead of sticking to this, that you don't really need them, which to me would consequently mean that it shouldn't matter then if someone opted not to benefit from something like this if it were to be implemented, because you could still go and get however many you feel you need normally, you said, that effectively you do need them to be competitive? Somehow this just seems like a contradiction to me.

Also, would people in dungeons (those elitist jerks you mentioned, and absolutely correctly) even be able to see whether or not someone had more or less skill points? I mean, you can't now, so why would you somehow be able to see that then? If you can still make a good build with less skill points, why would anyone even notice that you're lacking them then?

Androconium · March 2019

Not this record!!!

Not this recorrrrrrdddd!!!!!!!?!?

Androconium · March 2019

SNSquietxXSTORM wrote: »

Why hasn't this been put into the game? Specially for console players that don't have mods to show them. It makes so much sense leaving you focusing on questing and leveling for the End Game. It makes you not want to create other characters. Make it simpler guys just my thoughts.

This is why you can't have nice things.
Try not to have these thoughts in future.

Tandor · March 2019

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all.

Okay, now I'm confused. Isn't that the exact argument that has been brought up to defend the counterposition that skyshards should not be account-wide? That it is entirely optional to collect them, because you really don't need them to make viable end-game builds? So now you're saying that you do need them actually? I really don't get it.

And let's be honest, people get kicked from groups anyway for completely irrational reasons that have nothing to do with those players actual performance in a lot of cases. Just because lots of people are jerks. Having more skill points or not would change nothing about that.

I don't see where the confusion arises. I said that making the easy availability of them on an account-wide basis optional wouldn't work, and to answer your second point it would be yet another unfounded reason to kick people as well as removing the level playing field for those competitive players who opted not to use account-wide skill points they hadn't earned on that particular character. As you rightly say, elitist jerks kick players for no good reason already, this would just give them further cause in their minds to do so.

I was confused (or still am a little honestly, but I can't quite say if that's because we're kind of talking past each other or if I misinterpret something of what you wrote, because I'm not a native speaker) because it has been pointed out so many times in this thread by people who are against account-wide skyshards that there's no real reason to make them available for every toon since you don't even need that many skill points for viable builds. Which might be true, depending on how you play, but it is also beside the point of what we're actually talking about here. Anyway, now instead of sticking to this, that you don't really need them, which to me would consequently mean that it shouldn't matter then if someone opted not to benefit from something like this if it were to be implemented, because you could still go and get however many you feel you need normally, you said, that effectively you do need them to be competitive? Somehow this just seems like a contradiction to me.

Also, would people in dungeons (those elitist jerks you mentioned, and absolutely correctly) even be able to see whether or not someone had more or less skill points? I mean, you can't now, so why would you somehow be able to see that then? If you can still make a good build with less skill points, why would anyone even notice that you're lacking them then?

It would be contradictory, if I'd said it. What I said was that people who opted not to get the account-wide skills when they hadn't earned them on that character would be kicked from groups because the elitist jerks would consider them inferior - regardless of whether they were or not. I suspect they would know whether you had all the skill points either by asking you, stating a minimum requirement when recruiting a group, or by spotting which skills you were using - or failing to use. Also, players who opted not to have all the account-wide skill points available to them wouldn't be playing on a level playing field in competitive content with those who had taken all those skill points - no matter how significant they were.

I don't think in any event that anyone is arguing - I'm certainly not - that extra skill points aren't useful, or even that they're not needed ultimately, what they're saying is that you don't need all the skill points when you create a character - or even the moment it hits level 50 - for that character to be viable.

Androconium · March 2019

No it isn't...

Sylvermynx · March 2019

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The argument against this is: "I don't want this or see any need for it so you are not allowed to have it even if you see it as an annoying grind. You are just an idiot because you don't see it my way."

I wonder how many who oppose this do not allocate any CP for a new character since that is an unfair boost for new alts.

I haven't, except on my former main, a stamblade (which is damn hard to play with my ping). My alts don't need CP until they hit 50. So *shrug*.

Kidgangster101 · March 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not enough to have CP be account wide? That was specifically designed to make the game more alt friendly as a player reward for playing the game.

It's an outlook question. What does your game value? The sanctity of the character as a role-playing tool, or the player as someone who controls their character.

This isn't a binary thing either. There were account wide unlocks before Champion Points were a thing. The first ones were a little harder to see. Like the Palomino and Imperial Horses, which were still sold to the player, but only cost one gold. Then the Dye System was added.

Champion points are an awkward concession. It's a bend of the idea that, as an MMO, the game needs a long form character advancement system. Many players, if they get to "the end," will get bored and wander off. Veteran Ranks were designed to alleviate that, but it was still finite. CP was an attempt to skirt around that, still providing a long term advancement ladder, but also providing concessions to the idea that grinding endlessly wouldn't be fun.

I mean, there were problems. Without a spending cap, some people rocketed away to the point that there were several players with over 1k CP before the spending caps were implemented.

Once the caps did come in, that became the new, "level cap," that a lot of people viewed as mandatory for "true endgame," even though the entire system was designed to subvert that.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points are specific to a character. If EVERYTHING that SOMEONE thinks is boring is made account wide, then why bother with a leveling system?

Except, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about specific systems that are... let's say, "without repetitive entertainment value." It's not that collecting skyshards is boring, it's that once you've done it a couple times, (and I do mean collect them all), the novelty factor starts to wear out.

At least with Lorebooks, they do have multiple potential locations, so you can stumble across one in the wrong place as a nice surprise. You don't get that if you're using an addon, or looking up guide, but an attempt was made.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Why bother with progression systems at all?

At that point, the important question to ask is, "which systems improve the player's experience, and which do not?"

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Just make a lobby based adventure game with character archetypes like Team Fortress 2.

Amusingly, DCUO has this as an optional mode. So, someone did. And... it's not that great.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wonder why they dont make a PvE version of Overwatch? Maybe because it would be boring as hell?

Blizarrd did. Apparently the dayjob element was what dragged down the experience. You were creating your own superhero, but you also were expected to do stuff as your alter ego.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

This is an RPG.

In 2019, that classification has become so vague as to be meaningless. Dark Souls is an RPG. Far Cry 5 has RPG-elements. Destiny is an RPG. The Division is an RPG. The XCOM reboot and XCOM 2 could be called Tactical RPGs. Everything in the Immersive Sim sub-genre is an RPG.

ESO is an RPG, but everything after having a basic progression system, is up in the air.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Progression systems and character specialization are important aspects of the RPG genre.

And yet, the last two single player games from Bethesda Game Studios eschewed this entire concept, in favor of temporary focuses that could eventually be leveled past.

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Skill points, skyshards, lorebooks, and yes, some grinding are the ways that this game facilitates those mechanisms.

Currently. Sort of. Skyshards and Lorebooks are collectibles. There's compelling reasons for Lorebooks to be per character (again, fresh characters with Meteor would be a bad situation.)

However, the actual purpose of skyshards is to get you to explore the world. Look at the cryptic hints in the achievement. They're out there, and the team wants you to poke around looking for them. They're there to encourage you to take in the sights.

In a lot of ways, skyshards really are one shot. Coming back later will never provoke exactly the same kind of reaction as your first trip there. (This is ignoring a few shards that are very poorly positioned.) Sometimes you have to poke around an old ruin, other times, there's a vista in front of you as you consume the shard. But, once you've seen that once, it'll be familiar the next. Encouraging players to chase the shards repeatedly does a disservice to the system. Not a huge one, but in small ways.

Should skill points be account wide? I don't think so.

Should skyshards? Maybe.

Should lorebooks? Probably not. Because that's a skill line unlock you're forcing. Though I do understand, and am sympathetic to the people who want all the guild lines to be account wide. I just don't agree with them.

Just because you think it is boring or pointless doesn't mean that the alternative you are presenting is better. First, you're arguing for this change based of the mistaken belief that everyone needs all of them to play the game. It has been established that as long as you're not sitting in one place grinding mobs to 50, you should have enough books and skyshards at max level to be viable for end game with minimal preparation.

Second, you are focusing too intently on skyshards. I'm certain the intent was NOT for players to use a 3rd party guide to go on a personal quest to pick up all skyshards one after another. Yeah - that's going to be boring as hell just running from one skyshard to the next. You're supposed to pick them up while you're doing the quest content and zone exploration.

No. The development team does not need to bend over backwards to implement a change like this because you and some others insist on trying to play "efficiently" by powering through 50 levels as quickly as possible then opening a guide and doing nothing else other than hunting down 143 skyshards over the span of a few hours.

The game is fine. If anything, it rewards people effectively for playing the open world content and punishes people for ignoring that content for the sake of "efficiency".

Okay so you are basically saying there is only 1 way to play this game and it is your way, glad we established that.

Now let's talk about all the different ways to actually play the game. (And you can't say people shouldn't play these ways why you ask? Because zos hasn't removed them as options from the game to gain experience from. If they didn't want it as a way to xp they would have removed xp gain from places and forced xp only through quests like you are insisting here.)

Quests- after the first play through some people really could care less and press skip as fast as possible to get through it. And on top of that it gives very small amounts of experience.

Cyrodil- some people only like open world pvp and you gain experience in there.

Battlegrounds- you can spam them to level up and you even get a daily random that gives a nice chunk of xp.

Dungeons- you can spam them or you can que for the random daily for a huge xp reward.

Dolmains- you can play with as many people as you want here and you gain decent experience.

Grinding- you can play with 1 other person for maximum results and it is by far the fastest way to gain xp.

Xp scrolls/events- right now people are getting 100% xp for free. If the event isn't up they sell scrolls in the crown store.

So in fact you are wrong that your way is the correct way to play the game. People that only like pvp are forced to run pve for gear and monster sets. Pve players have to run some form of pvp to get moves.

I don't get why you want people that enjoy things not to play them because you don't think it is correct? Did you make the game or did zos? Because last I checked if zos wanted the game to strikly be quest based then they would remove all other xp options from the game.

All people want are quality of life changes in some form so they don't have to spend hours grinding things they have no interest in after ready doing it once.

Pve players use to cry about how hard it was to get vigor and caltrops because it was "to much of a grind in content they hated" and the xp for the skill lines got nerfed making it so you can have it in 3 hours if you join a Zerg. And that is actual content.......

What people want is to not go to place x hit button rinse and repeat. It is not hard content but it will surely put you to sleep trying to do it. Zos cares about $$$$ and they lose money when people don't make new toons because that's less stuff bought from their crown store (toon slot and xp scrolls). In the end that means less money for zos to create new content and keep the game alive meaning it dies eventually, quality of life stuff only helps the game keep running

CassandraGemini · March 2019

Tandor wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

This PC player is perfectly entitled to comment negatively on this. I have never had a single addon installed, and I never will as I have no need for them. Like console players, however, I do have access to the clues in the journal as to the locations involved so far as the skyshards are concerned, and as the clear intention of the developers is presumably that people should play the game rather than jump to the endgame (otherwise they would already have provided that option including especially for additional characters) the fact remains that players will come across the skyshards and lorebooks as they play the game - always assuming that after "X" number of characters they don't recall where they are anyway.

So, what is your argument against? I agree, you're entitled to an opinion and comment, but I'm not sure why you're negative on it. Yes, the devs had an original intent - that doesn't mean it was a great idea (or even particularly well executed). If this is optional, so that you can still use the clues to find overland collectibles, while those who don't want to are free to avoid that - would that be satisfactory?

A lot of people play exclusively for pvp. Are you suggesting that they should play what the devs intended, or focus on what they enjoy?

If you want my reasons for arguing against this, just read my earlier comments on this thread and the countless others like it. Those reasons include why options don't work - if someone opts not to benefit from account-wide skill points (which is what this is about, it's only indirectly about lorebooks and skyshards) then that's just another reason to kick them from groups or deny them a level playing field in any competitive content - so it ends up not being optional at all.

Okay, now I'm confused. Isn't that the exact argument that has been brought up to defend the counterposition that skyshards should not be account-wide? That it is entirely optional to collect them, because you really don't need them to make viable end-game builds? So now you're saying that you do need them actually? I really don't get it.

And let's be honest, people get kicked from groups anyway for completely irrational reasons that have nothing to do with those players actual performance in a lot of cases. Just because lots of people are jerks. Having more skill points or not would change nothing about that.

I don't see where the confusion arises. I said that making the easy availability of them on an account-wide basis optional wouldn't work, and to answer your second point it would be yet another unfounded reason to kick people as well as removing the level playing field for those competitive players who opted not to use account-wide skill points they hadn't earned on that particular character. As you rightly say, elitist jerks kick players for no good reason already, this would just give them further cause in their minds to do so.

I was confused (or still am a little honestly, but I can't quite say if that's because we're kind of talking past each other or if I misinterpret something of what you wrote, because I'm not a native speaker) because it has been pointed out so many times in this thread by people who are against account-wide skyshards that there's no real reason to make them available for every toon since you don't even need that many skill points for viable builds. Which might be true, depending on how you play, but it is also beside the point of what we're actually talking about here. Anyway, now instead of sticking to this, that you don't really need them, which to me would consequently mean that it shouldn't matter then if someone opted not to benefit from something like this if it were to be implemented, because you could still go and get however many you feel you need normally, you said, that effectively you do need them to be competitive? Somehow this just seems like a contradiction to me.

Also, would people in dungeons (those elitist jerks you mentioned, and absolutely correctly) even be able to see whether or not someone had more or less skill points? I mean, you can't now, so why would you somehow be able to see that then? If you can still make a good build with less skill points, why would anyone even notice that you're lacking them then?

It would be contradictory, if I'd said it. What I said was that people who opted not to get the account-wide skills when they hadn't earned them on that character would be kicked from groups because the elitist jerks would consider them inferior - regardless of whether they were or not. I suspect they would know whether you had all the skill points either by asking you, stating a minimum requirement when recruiting a group, or by spotting which skills you were using - or failing to use. Also, players who opted not to have all the account-wide skill points available to them wouldn't be playing on a level playing field in competitive content with those who had taken all those skill points - no matter how significant they were.

I don't think in any event that anyone is arguing - I'm certainly not - that extra skill points aren't useful, or even that they're not needed ultimately, what they're saying is that you don't need all the skill points when you create a character - or even the moment it hits level 50 - for that character to be viable.

Yeah, that's absolutely true - that you can make an end-game viable character without "grinding" skyshards. For me that was never the point anyway, that I somehow felt a need to have all those skill points to make a good build. It is more that I really just don't like the fact that there are so many "run all over the maps to collect xyz for character development" mechanics in this game. That just seems lazy and unimaginative to me and in the long run, the more alts I create the more I lack the motivation to keep doing this because it gets worse and worse over time.

But this is also the reason why I still think that ultimately it wouldn't make a difference to the "elistist jerks" kicking people from PUGs. Because you can absolutely make good end-game builds with less skill points than the max (or even close to the max). I only have a great many skill points on my main who is also my crafter, which is what ate up most of the added skill points I got after completing my actual build. The others have much less (as many as I could bring myself to collect via skyshards when other sources like questlines and dungeons were running dry), but they're still end-game viable, so really this just comes down to a question of convenience. Which is actually kind of a big deal for someone who doesn't have so much effective play-time.
But, yeah, what I was actually trying to say is, since you can make good builds without a whole slew of skill points I don't believe the possibility for account-wide skyshards would make the behavior in dungeons worse than it already is (and I've seen some bad things on that front, people proposing to kick others when they themselves were the actual problem for instance, and being kicked myself from a normal dungeon by a group of high cp people who probably thought my then cp 200 toon would not be able to keep up with them - before we even entered the dungeon). People already come up with really bad excuses to kick others or they don't give any reason for it at all and just do it for the fun of it. I don't think the added skill points would change that a whole lot.

ProfessorKittyhawk · March 2019

Mages guild books is how you level the mages guild skill line. If you're going to make that account wide and make every character start off with the same amount of books/level, then do the same for fighters guild/daedra and undead killed. In fact, do the same for dark brotherhood and thieves guild because who wants to to grind through contracts and heists and sacraments to level those? And also, why not max out the psijic skill line too so we don't have to hunt down rifts again and again and again? In fact, once you've done everything on one character just make EVERYTHING available on all future characters. Titles. Achievements. Remove pvp alliances because why not? Max those out once we've maxed all the pvp skill lines out for one character. Remove any and all challenge or grind from the game because that's what mmo's are all about. This is a game. We shouldn't have to WORK to become the best there ever was at any given thing on any given class or build.

</sarcasm>

Androconium · March 2019

I'm not dead yet.....