Melee and Bow
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DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
Show me an optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use light attack weaves.
That everyone uses it just means that option is good. The reason people run bow back bar is because the melee trees have too few dots to double bar them, and rhe ones they do have are weaker.0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
Show me an optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use light attack weaves.
That everyone uses it just means that option is good. The reason people run bow back bar is because the melee trees have too few dots to double bar them, and rhe ones they do have are weaker.
You just made my point. Bow isnt just a good option... its mandatory. If EVERYONE uses something.. that doesn't mean it's simply good.
Again, I don't want to kill bow/bow or melee/bow. I just want melee/melee to be a competitive option.1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
Show me an optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use light attack weaves.
That everyone uses it just means that option is good. The reason people run bow back bar is because the melee trees have too few dots to double bar them, and rhe ones they do have are weaker.
You just made my point. Bow isnt just a good option... its mandatory. If EVERYONE uses something.. that doesn't mean it's simply good.
Again, I don't want to kill bow/bow or melee/bow. I just want melee/melee to be a competitive option.
So let me get this straight, you want to nerf an effective ability simply and only because it doesn't have a competitor instead of giving a competitor to another skill line?
My point, which you conveniently missed, was that you could completely and utterly demolish the damage of endless hail, and bow will outperform any dual melee build because there is no substitute for the dots it gives (and a pretty gnarly ultimate tbh).
Hence the light attack comment.
Your idea hinges on bow getting nerfed so another playstyle can be viable. Not only will it not accomplish this, like at all, but you're assuming everyone agrees that bow and melee should for some reason be on par with anything else competitively.
I want sword and shield double bar to do as much damage as dual wield and bow now. Please tell me why it should not.Edited by DocFrost72 on March 20, 2019 5:42PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
Show me an optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use light attack weaves.
That everyone uses it just means that option is good. The reason people run bow back bar is because the melee trees have too few dots to double bar them, and rhe ones they do have are weaker.
You just made my point. Bow isnt just a good option... its mandatory. If EVERYONE uses something.. that doesn't mean it's simply good.
Again, I don't want to kill bow/bow or melee/bow. I just want melee/melee to be a competitive option.
Melee/melee is not going to be competitive with Bow/Melee in PVE DPS, and its not just because of Endless Hail. Its also because there are plenty of fights that are designed to be best fought from range.
Bow/Bow faces a little bit of the same problem since there are fights where you want everyone to be close...but you can use bows in melee range so its less of a problem.
Its almost like ZOS wants there to be variety in fights and having the Bow/Melee playstyle allows players to fluidly adapt to the majority of the fights in PVE combat on top of it having the best DPS rotation. BOTH factors lead to the dominance of the bow/melee meta: Endless Hail's superior DOT and the fluidity of combat demands both ranged and melee options.
Now, if you really want to make Melee/Melee viable in a variety of fights instead of making most stamina classes useless outside of melee range, ZOS needs to add ranged stamina morphs to our class skills or to guild lines. For example, a Stamina Warden can actually fight in both melee and ranged with a Melee/Melee build because they have Cutting Dive and Subterranean Assault. My Stam Sorc, on the other hand, is useless in a ranged fight if I use a Melee/Melee build because Hurricane need to be in melee ranges to be effective. So I always use a Bow/Melee on my Stam Sorc DD in PVE, not just because of Endless Hail, but because I need that ranged option in order to be effective in any possible fight I get into.
Melee/Melee is only viable in all PVE fights if the stam build can use a ranged attack from another source (like class of guild skills). Otherwise, its best suited only for those fights where you can fight like a brawler, which definitely isn't true for all PVE fights.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grianasteri wrote: »Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.
It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.
I think the point being made is that its just silly. In reality, combat just is not like that, in a fight, vs a single enemy or multiple enemies one is not going to continually shift between a bow and a melee weapon. So from a RP or lore kind of perspective, its just wrong.
Game play wise it works OK, I have no issue swapping bars and understanding why a bow increases dps etc. But that isnt the point.
Yes, but since when do fantasy games try to emulate real life?
As you said, game play wise it works. It would require a total overhaul to make it so it did not. That is probably not worth it.
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
So let me get this straight, you want to nerf an effective ability simply and only because it doesn't have a competitor instead of giving a competitor to another skill line?
Whether you buff other options or nerf the outlier, balance is the goal. I dont care if they buff cleave and blade cloak instead.
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.
Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.
That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.
Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?
I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.
You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.
What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.
Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.
So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?
I dont agree with your logic at all. If you balance cleave and blade cloak to be on the level of hail, you dont kill bow/bow, you just give players the option to NOT use a bow.
Okay sorry to be blunt, but this is just so stupid comment that says how much you actually put thoughts to what you say. If cleave, blade cloak andd hail are same strength, the only viable build will be the one utilizing both 2 of them.Edited by SodanTok on March 20, 2019 9:02PM0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.
Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.
That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.
Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?
I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.
You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.
What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.
Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.
So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?
I dont agree with your logic at all. If you balance cleave and blade cloak to be on the level of hail, you dont kill bow/bow, you just give players the option to NOT use a bow.
Okay sorry to be blunt, but this is just so stupid comment that says how much you actually put thoughts to what you say. If cleave, blade cloak andd hail are same strength, the only viable build will be the one utilizing both 2 of them.
but this is just such a stupid comment*
that shows how much thought you actually put into what you say*
the only viable builds will be those that utilize 2 of them*
You probably shouldn't call anyones comments stupid.
Now if we can stay on topic without resulting to insults, I will respond to your point.
If, like you say, the 'only' viable builds would utilize any two of cloak, hail, or cleave, then that would still be more viable combinations than we have now. So.... you tell me how having MORE viable build options is a bad thing.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.
Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.
That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.
Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?
I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.
You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.
What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.
Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.
So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?
I dont agree with your logic at all. If you balance cleave and blade cloak to be on the level of hail, you dont kill bow/bow, you just give players the option to NOT use a bow.
Okay sorry to be blunt, but this is just so stupid comment that says how much you actually put thoughts to what you say. If cleave, blade cloak andd hail are same strength, the only viable build will be the one utilizing both 2 of them.
but this is just such a stupid comment*
that shows how much thought you actually put into what you say*
the only viable builds will be those that utilize 2 of them*
You probably shouldn't call anyones comments stupid.
Now if we can stay on topic without resulting to insults, I will respond to your point.
If, like you say, the 'only' viable builds would utilize any two of cloak, hail, or cleave, then that would still be more viable combinations than we have now. So.... you tell me how having MORE viable build options is a bad thing.
Because your suggestion doesnt really make any more meta options. The meta will go with what's most effective. That's only ever going to be one thing.
As long as ESO has fights that need ranged AND melee options, the meta will be Bow/Melee, not Melee/Melee.
Moreover, in this this thread, we have people asking for 3 options:
Bow/Melee (the current meta)
Melee/Melee (struggles with ranged fights, but viable, if not optimal)
Bow/Bow (viable, but not optimal)
The problem we're discussing here with buffing Cleave and Blade Cloak to match Endless Hail is that the meta builds will require 2 out of the 3 Dots.
That leaves us with only two possible playstyles.
Bow/Melee (endless hail/Cleave OR Blade Cloak)
Melee/Melee (Cleave AND Blade Cloak, still struggles with ranged fights)
Obviously, your solution increases the competitiveness of Melee/Melee relative to Bow/Melee, though I doubt it would surpass it given the variety of fights in PVE. The clear Loser is Bow/Bow, who can still only access one of those DOTs.
So if your sole goal is to improve Melee/Melee builds as viable DPS in PVE, your solution works.
However in terms of making Melee/Melee the meta for stam builds, it's insufficient as it doesn't tackle stamina builds who lack ranged class skill/guild skill options which is necessary for fights where players have to fight from range. It definitely fails to deliver on what Bow/Bow users want, as they fall even farther behind on DPS.2 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
So let me get this straight, you want to nerf an effective ability simply and only because it doesn't have a competitor instead of giving a competitor to another skill line?
Whether you buff other options or nerf the outlier, balance is the goal. I dont care if they buff cleave and blade cloak instead.
But should sword and shield double bar do the same damage as all other options?0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »
So let me get this straight, you want to nerf an effective ability simply and only because it doesn't have a competitor instead of giving a competitor to another skill line?
Whether you buff other options or nerf the outlier, balance is the goal. I dont care if they buff cleave and blade cloak instead.
But should sword and shield double bar do the same damage as all other options?
No, but only because I tank and I don't want any more DDs spamming Puncture
Edited by VaranisArano on March 21, 2019 12:01AM0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »
So let me get this straight, you want to nerf an effective ability simply and only because it doesn't have a competitor instead of giving a competitor to another skill line?
Whether you buff other options or nerf the outlier, balance is the goal. I dont care if they buff cleave and blade cloak instead.
But should sword and shield double bar do the same damage as all other options?
I would say no, but I also wasnt aware sword and shield was a damage focused weapon line.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.
Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.
That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.
Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?
I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.
You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.
What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.
Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.
So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?
I dont agree with your logic at all. If you balance cleave and blade cloak to be on the level of hail, you dont kill bow/bow, you just give players the option to NOT use a bow.
Okay sorry to be blunt, but this is just so stupid comment that says how much you actually put thoughts to what you say. If cleave, blade cloak andd hail are same strength, the only viable build will be the one utilizing both 2 of them.
but this is just such a stupid comment*
that shows how much thought you actually put into what you say*
the only viable builds will be those that utilize 2 of them*
You probably shouldn't call anyones comments stupid.
Now if we can stay on topic without resulting to insults, I will respond to your point.
If, like you say, the 'only' viable builds would utilize any two of cloak, hail, or cleave, then that would still be more viable combinations than we have now. So.... you tell me how having MORE viable build options is a bad thing.
More? How is in any way removing viable ranged stam builds to allow melee builds swing big sword for 3 skill casts on back not a bad thing?
Plus dw/2h, dw/bow, 2h/bow and 2h/dw is like 4 melee combinations, such an improvement over current dw/bow, 2h/bow and bow/bow of 3 combintions and 2 different styles (melee, ranged) /insert facepalm of your choice/Edited by SodanTok on March 21, 2019 11:36AM0 -
norrisnick✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
What mag DPS doesn't use a vMA blockade and double inferno (minus some sorcs)?
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Colecovision wrote: »Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.
Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.
Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?
Because if a ranged build does the same dps as a melee build, then there would literally be no reason to bring a melee dps, because in most if not all games, it's more dangerous to be in a monsters face.
Unless being in melee made you a harder target (brawler, rally, bloodthirsty, blood craze, berserker strike, rend, blade cloak).
Too bad it doesn't amirite?
Those are the survival morphs of the mele skills and is shows ZoS totally gets survival vs damage as a concept. If those skills do actually match the survivability of range then they should do the same damage as a bow/bow build. They don't, nor is it close. But even if you use the damage only morphs like rending slashes instead of blood craze and Thrive in chaos instead of rend, then the >bow is still better<. It's simply not balanced.
Elder Sticks Online. (some sticks have a string)
I see people are already latching onto the 60k hedna parse and calling it gospel. Tell me, how many videos of end game score pushing can you find me with all stam as bow-bow? On what classes other than NB, sorc and warden could bow even outperform dw bow? Lastly, and this one is no a slight against hedna, but how do you think he got that parse?
With a tank spamming webs for him. Lol.
Going back to survivability, stam is tougher than magicka full stop. Your resistances are higher (on comparable classes) and you're likely to be in the big springs pool like everyone else. One shots are really the issue here, and I don't know any one shot that isn't mechanical and several very dangerous mechanics that are deadly at any range (warrior shield/wave, chain lightning, how about troll shockwave in SO? Lightning in AS? Oh, oh, I know: another, the spheres in HoF first boss? )
TL;DR Melee has a kit that mitigates damage while doing damage and ranged (stam) does not. Unless of course you wanna open your wallet for summerset, maybe.
I just wanted to clarify some of your points, because they are a bit off.
1. You wont see many videos of a full 8 bow/bow raid for several reasons:
A) Bow/Bow only became a viable option in the current patch.
There is no testing available that confirms that with 8 stam the synergy works well, that is something that needs to be tested.
C) There are fights where Bow/Bow is a clear DPS loss, so it will never be used.
However there are plenty of fights where it can be game breaking, such as on Assembly general, where you can outrange his stomp mechanic, which is a huge DPS gain.
2. Bow/Bow works best on Warden/Stamblade and less so on other classes, in the following order: Stamplar>Sorc>DK, because of the toolkit available to those classes.
3. Obviously the main part of parsing high with Bow/Bow is the webs synergy that pushes it significantly ahead of the DW/Bow meta, but thats like fracture buffing damage, it is something that will be there in a good group and that tanks (especially DK) can easily sustain. And if you are wondering how the two compare against eachother (DW/Bow VS Bow/Bow) - here is a direct comparison with the same sets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&t=221s
4. Survivability:
A)In most cases range survivability is a LOT better than range (few exceptions to that obviously exist), so I disagree completely with the notion that range is more vulnerable. If you like I can give you a "by boss" breakdown. Look at this video and tell me how much danger am I in VS melee on this fight?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4gYR-Af_z4
Note that popcorn for me is easily avoided, with a ton of space AND I can keep hitting the boss while kiting. If the group was 8 bow/bow , not much would change because the diameter around the boss would be a lot bigger than it currently is for melee, and thus there is a ton more room to spread. One shot mechanics at range? Like what? There are not many one shot mechanics and they are primarily the result of a tank error. What range can face is burst damage, but the issue is that if you DO have 8 stam you would still stack them together just at range from boss, so it would be the same as the current melee stacks. If you do not have 8 melee then you would have to have a strat that keeps the range safe, however in most cases its really not dangerous. I have kited vMoL HM meteors as a stam melee, I have done backroom on HM and all I used was vigor (no cloak) and it felt safe. You just need a good group and the knowledge of when to dodge roll.
So all in all, Bow/Bow at least for now has a place in PvE, but I would like to see it buffed, so as you say it wouldnt need the web proc to do better than Melee builds.0 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
Show me an optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use light attack weaves.
That everyone uses it just means that option is good. The reason people run bow back bar is because the melee trees have too few dots to double bar them, and rhe ones they do have are weaker.
@DocFrost72 sooo...what's the answer? this is half a post
make the dots in the melee trees stronger, right? just because things are the way they are doesn't mean they need to stay that way...skingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
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ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The underlying question seems to be whether a weapon type like bow should be restricted so that you need to use a second type of weapon to cover the gaps.
Bows seem to have been adjusted to be able to provide all the varieties. Single- or multi-target, short or long range, instant or DoT. Why shouldn't other weapons, DW included, equally have full coverage? As long as the mobs have full coverage, you need to defend against the same things, so it shouldn't matter whether you're close in or far away.
Using a single weapon to cover everything means only needing to develop one skill line, so you need some offsetting factor to make using two desirable, and that's hard to balance. I tried 2H on both bars, and that didn't work. I have another character doing 2xbow, which is better, and a tank with 2xS&B, which may also work out.
The same issues apply to mages using two destro staves, but that's wandering off topic.0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭The underlying question seems to be whether a weapon type like bow should be restricted so that you need to use a second type of weapon to cover the gaps.
Bows seem to have been adjusted to be able to provide all the varieties. Single- or multi-target, short or long range, instant or DoT. Why shouldn't other weapons, DW included, equally have full coverage? As long as the mobs have full coverage, you need to defend against the same things, so it shouldn't matter whether you're close in or far away.
Using a single weapon to cover everything means only needing to develop one skill line, so you need some offsetting factor to make using two desirable, and that's hard to balance. I tried 2H on both bars, and that didn't work. I have another character doing 2xbow, which is better, and a tank with 2xS&B, which may also work out.
The same issues apply to mages using two destro staves, but that's wandering off topic.
People are doing Bow/Bow precisely because the other weapons fill no gaps and offer next to nothing for PVE ranged dps. Hawkeye stacks were intruduced as a measure to improve the performance as an archer without significantly helping builds playing as melee.
Playing melee you get the primary benefits of bows from the back bar with little investment. Someone playing ranged with a bow has to run into melee to apply dots from DW/2H, much less use the majority of melee skills. The same is not true in reverse, playing melee one can run 2h/DW or DW/DW or 2H/2H or DW/Bow or 2H/Bow or S&B and any combination thereof and have all the benefits of every single weapon skill line with the exception of one bow passive(long shots).
If bows should be "restricted" to getting support from another line then Endless Hail and Poison Inject should have a minimum range requirement just like Shadow Silk Synergy.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭norrisnick wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
What mag DPS doesn't use a vMA blockade and double inferno (minus some sorcs)?
Apples and oranges. Stamina dps has 3 different skill lines to choose from, magicka dps has one.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭norrisnick wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.
And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.
Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...
Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!
What mag DPS doesn't use a vMA blockade and double inferno (minus some sorcs)?
Apples and oranges. Stamina dps has 3 different skill lines to choose from, magicka dps has one.
And also apples to oranges, because magicka DPS have a lot more useful class skills to chose from than stamina DPS.1