Melee and Bow

LeonAkando

I am surprised this is not discussed much, if at all, but why hasn't ZOS taken any action to separate the Melee and Bow playstyle?

It's disruptive, I feel to the opportunities of combat design. Stamina gameplay is always Melee + Bow.
Why can't there be Bow + Bow gameplay, a ranged Stam user. (Similar to DStaff + DStaff).
Why is there no Dual Melee Gameplay? Something like Dual Wield + 2H.

It feels like Melee + Bow SHOULD do less dps than focusing on one, as a cost for the added flexibility of gaining a ranged stance by weapon swapping.
However, instead you're stuck using a bow in melee range which isn't very exciting or intuitive.

So many times when people get into the game they're disappointed "What do you mean I can't play an Archer competitively?".
It invalidates a common fantasy trope of the Pathfinder/Tracker/Hunter, which was provided with the Warden class. (Along with it's Druidic/Naturalist and Cryomancer aesthetics).
A bear pet, a bow, and a menagerie of wildlife.

I'd like to see ZOS implement some changes that break up this stamina duo, in favor of pure melees and ranged Stam, to add some variety to the very similar Stam playstyles.

dazee

I would like instead for a combo or dedicated ranged or melee stam to both be viable. without one being head and shoulders better.

KhajiitFelix

Umm.... You can pull even 60k DPS with bow bow build, not sure what are you talking about.

Stx

Bow/bow works great, but any other combo of melee weapons that doesn't back bar a bow loses a ton of dps due to no endless hail and no way to proc back bar enchants (other than blade cloak).

It is a huge balance and design flaw.

Honestly when I started playing again recently I was very surprised that aoe abilities were used in a single target rotation at all. It feels so clunky to use caltrops and endless hail in a single target fight. No way they should deal more damage to a single target than single target dots do, that's balancing 101.

But anyway I would love to play 2H / dual wield or sword and board back bar in pve but you lose too much damage from endless hail.

VaranisArano

Sure, you can play with just a bow if you want. You can even go DW + Two hander if you want.

But most endgame or PVP builds look at how to get the most of the strengths of your weapons with fewer of the weaknesses. That's why the meta is what it is. Each of the weapons do something better than the others, which is why you see them used in combination most od the time unless you have a particular playstyle you want to pursue.

So for Bow + DW in PVE, you combine the fantastic Bow DOTs with DW's heavy hiting single Target skills and spammable.

For DW + Bow in PVP, you combine the range of the Bow with the heavy hitting spammables, bleed and AOE from DW

For DW + 2Hander in PVP, you combine the spammables from DW with the mobility, burst damage, and execute from 2Hander.

I used a Bow + 2hander build on my PVP StamWarden, for the mobility, bleeds, and burst of the 2hander, along with the range of the bow. I was either picking off enemies from a distance or brawling in the thick of things with very little in between, so those two weapons made sense foe the build.

2Hander tends to be less used in PVE, just because it has less sustained AOE damage or DOTs, which makes it a less effective option against mobs and bosses in terms of pure DPS.

So you certainly can limit yourself to one type of weapon, like the Bow, but you'll give up the strengths of a second weapon type. That won't matter if you can hit your desired DPS numbers without it. Its viable, provided you have enough skill to pull it off. But viable isnt the same thing as meta.

Gilvoth

main reason people dont like bow users in their group is because bow is slow and bow skills take a long time to cast making our damage per second output less then other weapons.
if bow skills were faster, would help alot to bring up the acceptance and dps of bow damage.

idk

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

LeonAkando

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Umm.... You can pull even 60k DPS with bow bow build, not sure what are you talking about.

I've never witnessed nor heard of this.

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

It's disruptive to fantasies. Any competitive player wants to play strong builds- but Melee + Bow in Melee range is a weird feeling meta build, and it's a shame people cant live out their bow/bow or melee/melee fantasies.

VaranisArano

LeonAkando wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Umm.... You can pull even 60k DPS with bow bow build, not sure what are you talking about.

I've never witnessed nor heard of this.

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

It's disruptive to fantasies. Any competitive player wants to play strong builds- but Melee + Bow in Melee range is a weird feeling meta build, and it's a shame people cant live out their bow/bow or melee/melee fantasies.

Bow/Bow or DW/2H are viable, assuming the player has enough skill.

But they aren't the PVE meta. They don't do as much DPS as efficiently for most Players as Bow/DW. They can't, not unless ZOS significantly changes how those weapon skills work in order to make your suggestions the new meta.

What I'm hearing is essentially "I want to play a non-meta, but still viable playstyle...and I want ZOS to make it the meta."

I can't say I agree. I like the synergy between the 3 weapon lines for different aspects of gameplay like I laid out in my earlier comment. I don't think the weapon lines need to be changed, especially when Bow/Bow or DW/2H are viable. That's as much my personal opinion as you calling Bow/DW a "weird feeling meta" or that you can't live out your fantasies because the alternatives are not strong builds.

Ultimately, you have to make the choice everyone does:

Do I follow the meta or do I play the way I like?

Stx

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

Grianasteri

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

I think the point being made is that its just silly. In reality, combat just is not like that, in a fight, vs a single enemy or multiple enemies one is not going to continually shift between a bow and a melee weapon. So from a RP or lore kind of perspective, its just wrong.

Game play wise it works OK, I have no issue swapping bars and understanding why a bow increases dps etc. But that isnt the point.

Stx

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.

Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.

VaranisArano

Grianasteri wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

I think the point being made is that its just silly. In reality, combat just is not like that, in a fight, vs a single enemy or multiple enemies one is not going to continually shift between a bow and a melee weapon. So from a RP or lore kind of perspective, its just wrong.

Game play wise it works OK, I have no issue swapping bars and understanding why a bow increases dps etc. But that isnt the point.

I understand your point and the OP's that mixing bow/ranged with DW/melee feels wrong for you.

I disagree, for me.

I'm going to wave off the realism argument, because if we wanted realism, we'd only have one weapon. Or swapping would have a long cooldown before we could use skills. Certainly, one wouldn't swap between two bows or daggers and greataxe in a real fight either. That doesnt seem like a likely change for ZOS to make, so I'll move on because if we start talking about what different people think is "silly" about the combat and where to draw the line, we'll never stop.

The OP wants a sharp distinction between range and melee playstyles to become the meta as opposed to the current, which is a combination of range (bow) and melee (DW).

I don't see that sharp distinction in how I play. In vMA, I am constantly prioritizing both ranged and melee targets. In PVP, I am facing enemies at multuple ranges at once! In most dungeons, there are fights best done from range and fights best done from melee. And no, I can't compensate with my class skills because I'm a stam build and don't have many to begin with. In fact, I play a stamina sorc most often, so if you draw a distinction between melee and ranged, I get pigeon holed into using DW/2H if I want to use my class skill Hurricane My only option for range is the bow.

So if the OP really wants that sharp distinction, we have to look at changing how ESO designs its encounters. Those encounters have to be equally viable for ranged-only and melee-only, and ESO has to stop mixing the two. Then, ESO needs to take a look at their stamina class skills if they don't want certain classes pigeonholed into range or melee.

Until that time, I feel no need to give up the flexibility of Bow + melee for a roleplayers range-only or melee-only playstyle even though those can be viable. They don't fit how I play ESO. I would even add that they don't mesh particularly well with how ESO designs its PVE encounters, which is one reason they are viable but not the meta.

If you want to play ranged only or melee only for the sake of your immersion, you go right ahead. its viable. As for myself, I will play how I think best fits the combat encounters I have regularly, and for ESO that means I have a mix of ranged and melee skills from both my bow and my melee weapon.

Personally, I don't expect ZOS to make the types of overall changes it would take for Bow/Bow or a melee only build to become the PVE meta for everyone. Viable, certainly, as it is now. But not the meta.

SodanTok

Stx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.

Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.

That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.

Vuron

Grianasteri wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

I think the point being made is that its just silly. In reality, combat just is not like that, in a fight, vs a single enemy or multiple enemies one is not going to continually shift between a bow and a melee weapon. So from a RP or lore kind of perspective, its just wrong.

Game play wise it works OK, I have no issue swapping bars and understanding why a bow increases dps etc. But that isnt the point.

This basically describes Hawkeye from the Avengers so I'm not sure how someone couldnt accept it as "somewhat" reality... it is a game.

Hawkeye uses his bow in melee range and even uses his bow as a melee weapon.

Stx

SodanTok wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.

Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.

That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.

Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?

I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.

You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.

Colecovision

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

I wish:
1. Endless hail only worked from 10+ meters away
2. there was a 2h skill that did more damage than endless hail against npcs. They could use an arena weapon to make it happen. They could even make it a 2h skilled weapon that required rending slashes to buff it, so people could never use it at the same time as endless hail.

VaranisArano

Colecovision wrote: »

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?

And why should either of those options better than using bow+melee? I find that ESO's combat encounters favor having the flexibility to use both ranged and melee options for my stam builds. Certainly there are fights in PVE where I can't be in melee range for large portions of the fight and, no, I don't have ranged class skills to make up for not having a bow on a stam sorc.

Stx

VaranisArano wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?

Because if a ranged build does the same dps as a melee build, then there would literally be no reason to bring a melee dps, because in most if not all games, it's more dangerous to be in a monsters face.

DocFrost72

Stx wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?

Because if a ranged build does the same dps as a melee build, then there would literally be no reason to bring a melee dps, because in most if not all games, it's more dangerous to be in a monsters face.

Unless being in melee made you a harder target (brawler, rally, bloodthirsty, blood craze, berserker strike, rend, blade cloak).

Too bad it doesn't amirite?

Colecovision

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?

Because if a ranged build does the same dps as a melee build, then there would literally be no reason to bring a melee dps, because in most if not all games, it's more dangerous to be in a monsters face.

Unless being in melee made you a harder target (brawler, rally, bloodthirsty, blood craze, berserker strike, rend, blade cloak).

Too bad it doesn't amirite?

Those are the survival morphs of the mele skills and is shows ZoS totally gets survival vs damage as a concept. If those skills do actually match the survivability of range then they should do the same damage as a bow/bow build. They don't, nor is it close. But even if you use the damage only morphs like rending slashes instead of blood craze and Thrive in chaos instead of rend, then the bow is still better. It's simply not balanced.

Elder Sticks Online. (some sticks have a string)

dazee

LeonAkando wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Umm.... You can pull even 60k DPS with bow bow build, not sure what are you talking about.

I've never witnessed nor heard of this.

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

It's disruptive to fantasies. Any competitive player wants to play strong builds- but Melee + Bow in Melee range is a weird feeling meta build, and it's a shame people cant live out their bow/bow or melee/melee fantasies.

Remember that bow/melee fantasies are just as valid. don't nerf those too much either.

Stx

dazee wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

Umm.... You can pull even 60k DPS with bow bow build, not sure what are you talking about.

I've never witnessed nor heard of this.

idk wrote: »

Unsure why OP takes issue with a DW/bow build. It works and works fine. It is not disruptive. It is not like we have to move further away to use our bow skills then move back in to use our DW skills.

It works fine. If it aint broke don't fix it.

It's disruptive to fantasies. Any competitive player wants to play strong builds- but Melee + Bow in Melee range is a weird feeling meta build, and it's a shame people cant live out their bow/bow or melee/melee fantasies.

Remember that bow/melee fantasies are just as valid. don't nerf those too much either.

If someone has a fantasy about firing a whole quiver of arrows into the air, and then standing inside the strike zone for those arrows... Maybe they need an intervention!

DocFrost72

Colecovision wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Standing behind the healer with 2 bows shouldn't do more damage than mele weapons right on top of the boss. If people aren't with me on that fundamental idea, then I don't know what to say.

Why not? I feel like I'm missing something here.

Why should a melee-only build automatically do more damage than a ranged-only build?

Because if a ranged build does the same dps as a melee build, then there would literally be no reason to bring a melee dps, because in most if not all games, it's more dangerous to be in a monsters face.

Unless being in melee made you a harder target (brawler, rally, bloodthirsty, blood craze, berserker strike, rend, blade cloak).

Too bad it doesn't amirite?

Those are the survival morphs of the mele skills and is shows ZoS totally gets survival vs damage as a concept. If those skills do actually match the survivability of range then they should do the same damage as a bow/bow build. They don't, nor is it close. But even if you use the damage only morphs like rending slashes instead of blood craze and Thrive in chaos instead of rend, then the >bow is still better<. It's simply not balanced.

Elder Sticks Online. (some sticks have a string)

I see people are already latching onto the 60k hedna parse and calling it gospel. Tell me, how many videos of end game score pushing can you find me with all stam as bow-bow? On what classes other than NB, sorc and warden could bow even outperform dw bow? Lastly, and this one is no a slight against hedna, but how do you think he got that parse?

With a tank spamming webs for him. Lol.

Going back to survivability, stam is tougher than magicka full stop. Your resistances are higher (on comparable classes) and you're likely to be in the big springs pool like everyone else. One shots are really the issue here, and I don't know any one shot that isn't mechanical and several very dangerous mechanics that are deadly at any range (warrior shield/wave, chain lightning, how about troll shockwave in SO? Lightning in AS? Oh, oh, I know: another, the spheres in HoF first boss? )

TL;DR Melee has a kit that mitigates damage while doing damage and ranged (stam) does not. Unless of course you wanna open your wallet for summerset, maybe.

SodanTok

Stx wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.

Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.

That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.

Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?

I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.

You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.

What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.

Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.

So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?

dazee

How about we get rid of seperate spell and weapon damage as well as making abilities scale on max total stats like ultimates do. then hybrids would make a return.

AcadianPaladin

Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.

And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.

Protossyder

Look, you can play whatever the f you want, but although you are definitely misinformed since bow bow already is a more or less viable option (in combination with the undaunted synergy), you still need to get over the fact that there is and will always be a meta.

Stx

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Um, I only have three stam characters - and all three of them are bow/bow. Anyone who thinks bow/bow is an easy or overpowered path is crazy. Endless Hail is not at all over the top, however, it (along with caltrops) is quite important to the foundation of bow/bow playstyle.

And don't be mistaken - bow/bow is a desirable playstyle. Many simply do not play it because of the challenges involved. A nerf that impacts bow/bow is a really bad idea.

Endless hail isnt over the top? Really...

Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use endless hail. Show me any optimal stamina dps build that doesn't use a bow. Must be a coincidence!

Stx

SodanTok wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You're saying DW/2Hand is competitive with dw/bow for pve dps?

It depends on What you mean by "competitive". Losing hail is huge but I have seen parses with dw/2h that hit ~40k and that is more then enough for all content in the game, short of timed vet trials.

By competitive, I mean pulling on average the same dps. You answered my question which is no.

Bows deal too much damage currently, mainly endless hail, and that should be fixed.

That would take huge fixing. Basically giving DW and 2H as good DoT as Hail and by that basically murdering bow/bow in process. Or totally nerfing hail to uselessness and finding spot for similiar dot on different tree. Completely gutting VMA bow in process.

Lowering the damage of hail would take HUGE fixing?

I dont want to ruin bow/bow builds but the obvious reason that bow/bow is viable and double of any other stamina weapon isnt is because bows deal so much more damage with a certain skill being a huge part of the rotation.

You dont have to nerf an ability into uselessness in order to balance it, come on now. Cleave and blade cloak should be more on the level of endless hail. They have the advantage of being easier to land on moving targets but that's okay from a balance perspective because melee builds are at a higher risk than ranged.

What do you not understand on what I said?
Either Hail deals as much damage as cleave and blade cloak now => Stamina DD in trials are dead, bow/bow is dead.
or
Cleave and blade cloak deal as much damage as hail now => Just bow/bow is dead.

Endless Hail and to some degree VMA Bow are literally balance backbone of stam builds. So yes, touching it would be huge operation.

So whats it gonna be? Do we murder all stam DDs or just ranged stamDDs so the already best variation - melee stam DD - get more diversity in their melee toolkit?

I dont agree with your logic at all. If you balance cleave and blade cloak to be on the level of hail, you dont kill bow/bow, you just give players the option to NOT use a bow.