Corpier wrote: »

How much dps a class should do, should depend on multiple factors. To simplify these factors here we will break them down into risk/reward, the selfish/enabling dps it does, and the rotation difficulty. Previously, in another post found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/463441/currently-best-to-worst-stamina-dps-classes/p1 I made a statement on why stamina nightblade may do more damage than it should considering the low risk and enabling dps relative to other stamina classes. While this initial post will focus more on stamina, due me being more familiar with stamina than magicka and already having written about it, I hope others in the comments can discuss magicka more thoroughly as the ideas can apply to most aspects of group play.

First lets begin by establishing a concept most players are already likely familiar with. Risk vs. reward should make a difference in dps. The more danger a player puts themselves in by playing a certain way, the more reward should be gained by playing well despite the increased difficulty. If a class/playstyle is ranged or has increased mobility inherent in its damage dealing It should do less dps because it is not in as much danger as a damage dealer in melee range or has the speed to move out of danger more easily. If a class/playstyle has mitigation, damage shields, or self healing inherent in its damage dealing it should do less dps as it can survive more easily. This is what initially prompted the statement that Stamina Nightblade might not deserve to do the most dps out of stamina classes. To use Stamina Nightblade as an example for how much damage a class should do compared the risk, difficulty, and enabling dps:

The reason being is that Stamina Nightblade actually one of the lowest risk stamina classes. They get major defensive buffs from their spammable. They have the sustain to not need to heavy attack and don't have any channeled abilities to get stuck in. They have better sustain and survivability in combat than most other classes in most situations (not all, especially if you count magicka and minitrials). If you want to get into enabling dps, with its cheap ultimate Incap it can buff its group with War Machine. Their pre-execute rotation may be one of the hardest among stamina, but their execute dps (when in most content mechanical difficulty goes up) is the easiest in the game.

Please be aware, this is not a "nErF NiGhTbLaDeS" thread. The point is to address how much damage a class DESERVES to do based on the difficulty for the player and how much damage the class does by itself vs. how much it enables for a group. This does not call for a nerf to nightblades as much as a redistribution of power so that each class provides similar merits for group play by providing different strengths balanced with different weaknesses. In this the point is to understand why Nightblade performs so well, and that to balance classes there needs to be strengths and weaknesses that affect the player and the group.

In contrast to Stamina Nightblade each stamina variant of a class has strengths and weaknesses in different areas and to different degrees. Stamsorc has similar survivability from Hurricane, but lack the sustain and enabling dps. Stamplar can enable dps with Power of The Light and War Machine with the Sweep ult, but lacks survivability and sustain. Stamden has good sustain and can enable dps with the bear and War Machine (and can provide Minor Toughness without a Warden Healer), but lacks survivability. DK lacks it all, and I would advocate should have the highest potential dps if its rotation wasn't so mindnumbingly easy. The rotations of stamsorc and sDK are easier to preform than those of Stamden and Stamina Nightblade, with Stamplar's in a middle difficulty to preform. While I will not cover rotation difficulty in detail in this initial post I would like to advocate that it would be beneficial for all classes to have complex and dynamic skills that would allow them to have a static and dynamic rotation available with the latter rewarding more damage than the former.

The second topic regards selfish vs. enabling damage. Classes/builds that enable more dps should do slightly less dps themselves. When it works well the buff provided often increases group dps much more than the penalty on the individual. If you want to think of it practically, then the amount of dps one person enables for the group could pretty much be added to their own parse as it is that valuable to the group when done right. There are multiple sources of enabling dps currently found in game:

The Minor Buffs provides by using certain class skills are a passive form of this. Active forms include Templars using Power of the Light to provide Minor Fracture/Breach. Damage dealers with cheap ultimates using War Machine or Master Architect. It especially can be seen in the game's current support meta with tanks and healers giving up selfish options for sets like Ebon/Alkosh or Olorime/Jorvulds that buff the group instead of increasing the individual player's performance in their role.

To summarize my personal gameplay philosophy is that risk/reward and selfish/enabling attributes of a class should effect how much dps it does. By that logic stamina nightblade should not be the highest preforming dps while having low risk (for stamina) and high enabling dps to the point that people ask "why should I bring any other class to group?"

Ideally the reason to play one class over another should be a multilayered question and should function like: Does a class have more survival tools (sustain/mitigation/self-healing/mobility) built into their damage dealing abilities but do less damage overall? Then its probably better for beginners that don't know mechanics and don't need the dps since they aren't pushing score. Does the class offer buffs or utility for the group? Is someone already playing that class and providing that buff or utility? If not maybe I should play it, if so maybe I should play a class that will provide a different buff or utility, or play a more selfish class with slightly more damage.

So in my ideal model for a group, only 1-3 players would play the top dps class, and those would be the best dps in the group after other enabling dps buffs are provided by others, so that it would maximize the give/take and sacrifice/gain mentality that should exist in good group play.

Thank you for reading, and please post your thoughts on group dps in the comments.

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

How much dps a class should do, should depend on multiple factors. To simplify these factors here we will break them down into risk/reward, the selfish/enabling dps it does, and the rotation difficulty. Previously, in another post found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/463441/currently-best-to-worst-stamina-dps-classes/p1 I made a statement on why stamina nightblade may do more damage than it should considering the low risk and enabling dps relative to other stamina classes. While this initial post will focus more on stamina, due me being more familiar with stamina than magicka and already having written about it, I hope others in the comments can discuss magicka more thoroughly as the ideas can apply to most aspects of group play.

First lets begin by establishing a concept most players are already likely familiar with. Risk vs. reward should make a difference in dps. The more danger a player puts themselves in by playing a certain way, the more reward should be gained by playing well despite the increased difficulty. If a class/playstyle is ranged or has increased mobility inherent in its damage dealing It should do less dps because it is not in as much danger as a damage dealer in melee range or has the speed to move out of danger more easily. If a class/playstyle has mitigation, damage shields, or self healing inherent in its damage dealing it should do less dps as it can survive more easily. This is what initially prompted the statement that Stamina Nightblade might not deserve to do the most dps out of stamina classes. To use Stamina Nightblade as an example for how much damage a class should do compared the risk, difficulty, and enabling dps:

The reason being is that Stamina Nightblade actually one of the lowest risk stamina classes. They get major defensive buffs from their spammable. They have the sustain to not need to heavy attack and don't have any channeled abilities to get stuck in. They have better sustain and survivability in combat than most other classes in most situations (not all, especially if you count magicka and minitrials). If you want to get into enabling dps, with its cheap ultimate Incap it can buff its group with War Machine. Their pre-execute rotation may be one of the hardest among stamina, but their execute dps (when in most content mechanical difficulty goes up) is the easiest in the game.

Please be aware, this is not a "nErF NiGhTbLaDeS" thread. The point is to address how much damage a class DESERVES to do based on the difficulty for the player and how much damage the class does by itself vs. how much it enables for a group. This does not call for a nerf to nightblades as much as a redistribution of power so that each class provides similar merits for group play by providing different strengths balanced with different weaknesses. In this the point is to understand why Nightblade performs so well, and that to balance classes there needs to be strengths and weaknesses that affect the player and the group.

In contrast to Stamina Nightblade each stamina variant of a class has strengths and weaknesses in different areas and to different degrees. Stamsorc has similar survivability from Hurricane, but lack the sustain and enabling dps. Stamplar can enable dps with Power of The Light and War Machine with the Sweep ult, but lacks survivability and sustain. Stamden has good sustain and can enable dps with the bear and War Machine (and can provide Minor Toughness without a Warden Healer), but lacks survivability. DK lacks it all, and I would advocate should have the highest potential dps if its rotation wasn't so mindnumbingly easy. The rotations of stamsorc and sDK are easier to preform than those of Stamden and Stamina Nightblade, with Stamplar's in a middle difficulty to preform. While I will not cover rotation difficulty in detail in this initial post I would like to advocate that it would be beneficial for all classes to have complex and dynamic skills that would allow them to have a static and dynamic rotation available with the latter rewarding more damage than the former.

The second topic regards selfish vs. enabling damage. Classes/builds that enable more dps should do slightly less dps themselves. When it works well the buff provided often increases group dps much more than the penalty on the individual. If you want to think of it practically, then the amount of dps one person enables for the group could pretty much be added to their own parse as it is that valuable to the group when done right. There are multiple sources of enabling dps currently found in game:

The Minor Buffs provides by using certain class skills are a passive form of this. Active forms include Templars using Power of the Light to provide Minor Fracture/Breach. Damage dealers with cheap ultimates using War Machine or Master Architect. It especially can be seen in the game's current support meta with tanks and healers giving up selfish options for sets like Ebon/Alkosh or Olorime/Jorvulds that buff the group instead of increasing the individual player's performance in their role.

To summarize my personal gameplay philosophy is that risk/reward and selfish/enabling attributes of a class should effect how much dps it does. By that logic stamina nightblade should not be the highest preforming dps while having low risk (for stamina) and high enabling dps to the point that people ask "why should I bring any other class to group?"

Ideally the reason to play one class over another should be a multilayered question and should function like: Does a class have more survival tools (sustain/mitigation/self-healing/mobility) built into their damage dealing abilities but do less damage overall? Then its probably better for beginners that don't know mechanics and don't need the dps since they aren't pushing score. Does the class offer buffs or utility for the group? Is someone already playing that class and providing that buff or utility? If not maybe I should play it, if so maybe I should play a class that will provide a different buff or utility, or play a more selfish class with slightly more damage.

So in my ideal model for a group, only 1-3 players would play the top dps class, and those would be the best dps in the group after other enabling dps buffs are provided by others, so that it would maximize the give/take and sacrifice/gain mentality that should exist in good group play.

Thank you for reading, and please post your thoughts on group dps in the comments.

I wish people would quit hating on nightblades personally.

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

How much dps a class should do, should depend on multiple factors. To simplify these factors here we will break them down into risk/reward, the selfish/enabling dps it does, and the rotation difficulty. Previously, in another post found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/463441/currently-best-to-worst-stamina-dps-classes/p1 I made a statement on why stamina nightblade may do more damage than it should considering the low risk and enabling dps relative to other stamina classes. While this initial post will focus more on stamina, due me being more familiar with stamina than magicka and already having written about it, I hope others in the comments can discuss magicka more thoroughly as the ideas can apply to most aspects of group play.

First lets begin by establishing a concept most players are already likely familiar with. Risk vs. reward should make a difference in dps. The more danger a player puts themselves in by playing a certain way, the more reward should be gained by playing well despite the increased difficulty. If a class/playstyle is ranged or has increased mobility inherent in its damage dealing It should do less dps because it is not in as much danger as a damage dealer in melee range or has the speed to move out of danger more easily. If a class/playstyle has mitigation, damage shields, or self healing inherent in its damage dealing it should do less dps as it can survive more easily. This is what initially prompted the statement that Stamina Nightblade might not deserve to do the most dps out of stamina classes. To use Stamina Nightblade as an example for how much damage a class should do compared the risk, difficulty, and enabling dps:

The reason being is that Stamina Nightblade actually one of the lowest risk stamina classes. They get major defensive buffs from their spammable. They have the sustain to not need to heavy attack and don't have any channeled abilities to get stuck in. They have better sustain and survivability in combat than most other classes in most situations (not all, especially if you count magicka and minitrials). If you want to get into enabling dps, with its cheap ultimate Incap it can buff its group with War Machine. Their pre-execute rotation may be one of the hardest among stamina, but their execute dps (when in most content mechanical difficulty goes up) is the easiest in the game.

Please be aware, this is not a "nErF NiGhTbLaDeS" thread. The point is to address how much damage a class DESERVES to do based on the difficulty for the player and how much damage the class does by itself vs. how much it enables for a group. This does not call for a nerf to nightblades as much as a redistribution of power so that each class provides similar merits for group play by providing different strengths balanced with different weaknesses. In this the point is to understand why Nightblade performs so well, and that to balance classes there needs to be strengths and weaknesses that affect the player and the group.

In contrast to Stamina Nightblade each stamina variant of a class has strengths and weaknesses in different areas and to different degrees. Stamsorc has similar survivability from Hurricane, but lack the sustain and enabling dps. Stamplar can enable dps with Power of The Light and War Machine with the Sweep ult, but lacks survivability and sustain. Stamden has good sustain and can enable dps with the bear and War Machine (and can provide Minor Toughness without a Warden Healer), but lacks survivability. DK lacks it all, and I would advocate should have the highest potential dps if its rotation wasn't so mindnumbingly easy. The rotations of stamsorc and sDK are easier to preform than those of Stamden and Stamina Nightblade, with Stamplar's in a middle difficulty to preform. While I will not cover rotation difficulty in detail in this initial post I would like to advocate that it would be beneficial for all classes to have complex and dynamic skills that would allow them to have a static and dynamic rotation available with the latter rewarding more damage than the former.

The second topic regards selfish vs. enabling damage. Classes/builds that enable more dps should do slightly less dps themselves. When it works well the buff provided often increases group dps much more than the penalty on the individual. If you want to think of it practically, then the amount of dps one person enables for the group could pretty much be added to their own parse as it is that valuable to the group when done right. There are multiple sources of enabling dps currently found in game:

The Minor Buffs provides by using certain class skills are a passive form of this. Active forms include Templars using Power of the Light to provide Minor Fracture/Breach. Damage dealers with cheap ultimates using War Machine or Master Architect. It especially can be seen in the game's current support meta with tanks and healers giving up selfish options for sets like Ebon/Alkosh or Olorime/Jorvulds that buff the group instead of increasing the individual player's performance in their role.

To summarize my personal gameplay philosophy is that risk/reward and selfish/enabling attributes of a class should effect how much dps it does. By that logic stamina nightblade should not be the highest preforming dps while having low risk (for stamina) and high enabling dps to the point that people ask "why should I bring any other class to group?"

Ideally the reason to play one class over another should be a multilayered question and should function like: Does a class have more survival tools (sustain/mitigation/self-healing/mobility) built into their damage dealing abilities but do less damage overall? Then its probably better for beginners that don't know mechanics and don't need the dps since they aren't pushing score. Does the class offer buffs or utility for the group? Is someone already playing that class and providing that buff or utility? If not maybe I should play it, if so maybe I should play a class that will provide a different buff or utility, or play a more selfish class with slightly more damage.

So in my ideal model for a group, only 1-3 players would play the top dps class, and those would be the best dps in the group after other enabling dps buffs are provided by others, so that it would maximize the give/take and sacrifice/gain mentality that should exist in good group play.

Thank you for reading, and please post your thoughts on group dps in the comments.

I wish people would quit hating on nightblades personally.

I don't think its hate, some people just don't like the class or bored of it. There needs to be a push to classes left behind. blades are fine. sdk and stamsorc are still behind and are stuck with rotations that are bland and not rewarding.