For an average player, who still manages to do most end game content, as a healer, dps or a tank, I do find it quite frustrating when people get upset if one single skill isnt available or is nerfed, as if use of that character or role hinges on a single skill.

It doesnt.

Annoying as it may be, adapt, there are multiple ways to tank and group effectively.

Having said that, I do like some of the ideas mentioned.

Mojmir wrote: »

simple solution, implement spears into the game and give them tank morphs

That’s an interesting idea. Spear? Shield and spear? Certainly a weapon you can see holding a boss at bay and taunting them. I think for many it would fit the aesthetic better. And many do care about the aesthetics, sometimes even min/maxers who are mostly crunching the numbers.

Hate the Tank enabling DPS meta and would rather have stuff like Crusher dropped off the face of Nirn than further enable that playstyle; Not saying I'm against support options being available but as just that, an option rather than some player mandated requirement.

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Even though we cry about nerfes happening all the time, the dps increased every patch which made content easier. Reducing the effectiveness of 1 handed weapons was the right step. Most players adapted anyways by now.

Aside from that: Many tanks were using different weapons on their back bars for ages already.
E.g.: Bow (dot tank), Healing staff (vDSA with 3 stam dds for example), Frost staff (for mag based tanking), Lightning staff (for off balance and more utility)

Having more variety isn't a bad thing, get over it. And if you didn't care about providing more utility to your group by using anything different than the old double SnB before I really doubt that you truly care about 1k less penetration now.

PS: healers can use infused crushing too.

U have not tanked

Thank you!

As I was going down this thread I was quoting every post that needed an answer and then you typed the exact correct thing lol thank you friend I was cringing the whole time

As for the poll, I’m in favor of both the first and second option but I think putting a passive in 1h&s would be easier for Zos.

Zenimax doesn't need to do anything on this, because not everyone perceives this role as having to do all the debuff-work. The ball is in the court of players, who should perhaps play a bit less with calculators.

Same as the issue with parses on a DD: It doesn't matter what you can do on paper, if you are dead, you'll do 0. So what if the enchantments are halved, the feeling for me playing both bars with 1h/shield hasn't changed at all. So it shouldn't really matter at the end of the day, as long as you keep the foe's attention on you and stay alive doing that.

Myrkgrav wrote: »

Shawn_PT wrote: »

Stop dumping so much responsibility on the tank and I'll probably start enjoying it again.

lol this really is my biggest issue with tanking. I main tank, I love the role, and it's a role/niche I usually play across any game. It really is so thankless though. People get so uptight if you die. And if healer isn't pulling weight or DD isn't outputting enough and you die-- h o l y c h r i s t get ready to get FLAMED. It's YOUR fault, no matter if it was or not. You can be the last one alive and it's still your fault somehow. Don't even get me started on primadonnas that think you should taunt every add or trash mob. No little DD, you should output more damage and petition AoE taunt to be added to the game. I'm gonna taunt the big bad, I'm going to turn him away from you, and you're going to do your job and kill him.

I'd say 99% of people I play with are really nice. They don't get mad at me, they explain mechanics if I can do something better, they work as a team. But those couple people man... I really don't know why they don't tank since they're apparently so god-tier at it looooooool. The abuse is unreal.

Absoutely, it makes sense now, how many tanks seems to see this as an issue now. It wouldn't surprise me at all, if that topic coming up here, was the result of that kind of flaming you mentioned.

Protossyder wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Protossyder , the issue with having crusher from WoE is that it's tricky to target it with ground AoEs when adds are around. Crusher will only proc on one target - the closest one at the moment of WoE cast - and will latch onto that target until WoE is recast. And to add insult to injury, ESO's proximity calculation is a marvel of randomness, I often see my FoO fireball going astray even when I'm literally hugging the boss. And especially if tank just chained in and rooted the adds, there's a chance that the crusher will proc on wrong target.

Yes, I am fully aware of that.

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Even though we cry about nerfes happening all the time, the dps increased every patch which made content easier. Reducing the effectiveness of 1 handed weapons was the right step. Most players adapted anyways by now.

Aside from that: Many tanks were using different weapons on their back bars for ages already.
E.g.: Bow (dot tank), Healing staff (vDSA with 3 stam dds for example), Frost staff (for mag based tanking), Lightning staff (for off balance and more utility)

Having more variety isn't a bad thing, get over it. And if you didn't care about providing more utility to your group by using anything different than the old double SnB before I really doubt that you truly care about 1k less penetration now.

PS: healers can use infused crushing too.

U have not tanked

Oh, I did and do. I even have a froststaff/flamestaff mag dk off tank for vCR+X who deals up to 30k, but he is still in testing phase.

I dont want to be rude but in a progression group and pugs u will be kicked or made fun of or simply someone giving idiotic advices(who never tanked) if a tank does not follow meta or dies once with non meta build
even if u do the job right

Its good to know that u r group accepts u r build(btw u mentioned off tank but our concern is main tank primarily)
We are not asking to remove something or add something its just that staff became BIS. I mean i can still run both s&b but i will be given second priority

btw alkosh is only good for organised groups where u can get good uptime and ZoS maked it as a medium set, their vision of tank seems to be different from players and tank are going to get nerfs until we get it right.

Grianasteri wrote: »

For an average player, who still manages to do most end game content, as a healer, dps or a tank, I do find it quite frustrating when people get upset if one single skill isnt available or is nerfed, as if use of that character or role hinges on a single skill.

It doesnt.

Annoying as it may be, adapt, there are multiple ways to tank and group effectively.

Having said that, I do like some of the ideas mentioned.

@Grianasteri
Could u plz mention those multiple ways.

Kelces wrote: »

Zenimax doesn't need to do anything on this, because not everyone perceives this role as having to do all the debuff-work. The ball is in the court of players, who should perhaps play a bit less with calculators.

This. So much this. It is not a game issue. It is a mentality issue. DDs are the gods. Everyone must bend over and give them every single buff in the game, even if it makes things a nightmare for us. But hey who cares if the tank is having a hard time, that one guy is pulling 55k consistently through the entire trial, he's so amazing. Except that then the tank dies because they were struggling, the 55k becomes 0, and the group wipes. I would much rather have people pull less DPS but stay alive, stay consistent, and stay calm, than shove the usual discourse about how 'Guild' does it this way and 'Player' does it that way, hence that's exactly how YOU are going to do it because we say so.

When players are going to run hard content and progress from wiping 30 seconds into the trial to consistently clearing it, survivability should be priority number one. One thing that annoyed me to no end was when working on HM DLC trials. Progress group said I HAVE to have this setup. Because I HAVE to keep Alkosh uptime close to 100%. I HAVE to keep Blockade and crusher close to 100%. I HAVE to be able to sustain and heal myself to full with no healer. I HAVE to. I HAVE to.

No. I don't HAVE to. As tank it's my job to keep the boss in place and taunted, and don't die while doing so. If it's new and hard content I still don't feel at ease doing, I'd much rather be wearing proper armor and using proper skills than tanking the hardest bosses in the game while wearing a paper sack and a magical stick. If the DDs can only pull 30k and start whining that it is not enough when I decide to be selfish, then perhaps one of them should be the buff-b!tch and sacrifice their numbers to increase everyone else's. The tank would tank and NOT die, buffs would be up 100% up all the time, and everyone would be happy.

But no. It's always the same old deal with "the more DPS we pull the easier it will be to clear it." I say no. Not if in order to get content cleared we make the tank's job incredibly harder, despite them still being in the process of learning how to run content. A dead tank is ten times worse than saving a handful of minutes clearing the trial. IF we manage to clear it at all. After everyone knows what's going on and have broken into their roles, then work on improving speed/DPS/buff uptime.

When I comment sometimes how I had to tank vAS HM with a vMA lightning staff the reactions I get are "wtf!!" "but why???" "how is that even possible??" and "why don't the DDs do that?? It's THEIR job not yours!"

Yeah. It should be.

Boy this turned into another rant. Just comes to show how upset it made me, having people tell me how I should tank in order to boost their numbers. Ignore the fact that I am not having fun at all and am struggling to fulfil a role that I have done for so long, just because the top 0,001% of the players do it that way.

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Protossyder , the issue with having crusher from WoE is that it's tricky to target it with ground AoEs when adds are around. Crusher will only proc on one target - the closest one at the moment of WoE cast - and will latch onto that target until WoE is recast. And to add insult to injury, ESO's proximity calculation is a marvel of randomness, I often see my FoO fireball going astray even when I'm literally hugging the boss. And especially if tank just chained in and rooted the adds, there's a chance that the crusher will proc on wrong target.

Yes, I am fully aware of that.

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Even though we cry about nerfes happening all the time, the dps increased every patch which made content easier. Reducing the effectiveness of 1 handed weapons was the right step. Most players adapted anyways by now.

Aside from that: Many tanks were using different weapons on their back bars for ages already.
E.g.: Bow (dot tank), Healing staff (vDSA with 3 stam dds for example), Frost staff (for mag based tanking), Lightning staff (for off balance and more utility)

Having more variety isn't a bad thing, get over it. And if you didn't care about providing more utility to your group by using anything different than the old double SnB before I really doubt that you truly care about 1k less penetration now.

PS: healers can use infused crushing too.

U have not tanked

Oh, I did and do. I even have a froststaff/flamestaff mag dk off tank for vCR+X who deals up to 30k, but he is still in testing phase.

I dont want to be rude but in a progression group and pugs u will be kicked or made fun of or simply someone giving idiotic advices(who never tanked) if a tank does not follow meta or dies once with non meta build
even if u do the job right

Its good to know that u r group accepts u r build(btw u mentioned off tank but our concern is main tank primarily)
We are not asking to remove something or add something its just that staff became BIS. I mean i can still run both s&b but i will be given second priority

btw alkosh is only good for organised groups where u can get good uptime and ZoS maked it as a medium set, their vision of tank seems to be different from players and tank are going to get nerfs until we get it right.

Sorry, but I have disagree. I didn't came up with a random tank build and claimed that it's superior to everyone else's . It only works in this specific trial with our current group setup (in vet dungeons too, but it's not optimal...). I provide everything I am supposed to along with up to 30k dps.
Yes, Alkosh only works in good groups, but I don't think that ZoS has a "different vision" since they could've changed that set a long time ago already. They are obviously just trying to balance the game and that "nerf" was a step in the right direction.

If you don't want to play with a staff on your back bar just don't do it. But there will always be a meta, get over it.

Protossyder wrote: »

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Protossyder , the issue with having crusher from WoE is that it's tricky to target it with ground AoEs when adds are around. Crusher will only proc on one target - the closest one at the moment of WoE cast - and will latch onto that target until WoE is recast. And to add insult to injury, ESO's proximity calculation is a marvel of randomness, I often see my FoO fireball going astray even when I'm literally hugging the boss. And especially if tank just chained in and rooted the adds, there's a chance that the crusher will proc on wrong target.

Yes, I am fully aware of that.

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Even though we cry about nerfes happening all the time, the dps increased every patch which made content easier. Reducing the effectiveness of 1 handed weapons was the right step. Most players adapted anyways by now.

Aside from that: Many tanks were using different weapons on their back bars for ages already.
E.g.: Bow (dot tank), Healing staff (vDSA with 3 stam dds for example), Frost staff (for mag based tanking), Lightning staff (for off balance and more utility)

Having more variety isn't a bad thing, get over it. And if you didn't care about providing more utility to your group by using anything different than the old double SnB before I really doubt that you truly care about 1k less penetration now.

PS: healers can use infused crushing too.

U have not tanked

Oh, I did and do. I even have a froststaff/flamestaff mag dk off tank for vCR+X who deals up to 30k, but he is still in testing phase.

I dont want to be rude but in a progression group and pugs u will be kicked or made fun of or simply someone giving idiotic advices(who never tanked) if a tank does not follow meta or dies once with non meta build
even if u do the job right

Its good to know that u r group accepts u r build(btw u mentioned off tank but our concern is main tank primarily)
We are not asking to remove something or add something its just that staff became BIS. I mean i can still run both s&b but i will be given second priority

btw alkosh is only good for organised groups where u can get good uptime and ZoS maked it as a medium set, their vision of tank seems to be different from players and tank are going to get nerfs until we get it right.

Sorry, but I have disagree. I didn't came up with a random tank build and claimed that it's superior to everyone else's . It only works in this specific trial with our current group setup (in vet dungeons too, but it's not optimal...). I provide everything I am supposed to along with up to 30k dps.
Yes, Alkosh only works in good groups, but I don't think that ZoS has a "different vision" since they could've changed that set a long time ago already. They are obviously just trying to balance the game and that "nerf" was a step in the right direction.

If you don't want to play with a staff on your back bar just don't do it. But there will always be a meta, get over it.

I mean the tank getting sacrificed for improving group dps rather than survivability (current meta)
i think the zos might have slightly different idea like the set can be used on a dd rather than on a tank and this opens for utility roles

ezio45 wrote: »

i mean lighting is better than ice staff. if my tank is running an ice staff im probably kicking them.... just being honest

but ya they should further refine this. Its sucks that tanks are forced to run a lighting staff

At random dungeons?

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

What's wrong with a destro/resto back bar on a tank?

This, I've always used a resto staff on my backbar for off heals and the passives.