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Bow/Bow is actually viable, easy to learn, fun and effective
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Weisstag✭✭✭So i did 6m parse, changed mundus to shadow since it feels somewhat better out of a sudden and got this, ill do few more and will see if i can push it higher, i have bad ping whole day so yeah
Edited by Weisstag on March 6, 2019 5:22PMIam an EU player...so Iam pretty used to suffering3 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198Edited by DoonerSeraph on March 6, 2019 6:14PM1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.
Technically it never exceeds minor berserk because it never buffs anything more than bow skills ^^0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.
Technically it never exceeds minor berserk because it never buffs anything more than bow skills ^^
This0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just about every combination can be viable. Most people are used to stricter mmorpgs so they only understand meta concepts.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.
Technically it never exceeds minor berserk because it never buffs anything more than bow skills ^^
Really? It says it buffs "bow abilities", which normally would include basic attacks along with skills.
Of course, that would still exclude Caltrops, Lightweight Beast Trap (if used), and monster set procs (if any).0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Judas Helviaryn wrote: »I feel that the rotation on my Bow/Bow Warden is way too complicated when I compare it to my magSorc.
There are just too many things that need constant refreshing. Doesn't feel very intuitive and I keep messing up so bad that my DPS is lower when I try to do it "right" than when I just spam poison injection and subassault with light attacks (and Relequen).
All the things I need to refresh on magSorc are power surge, wall of elements, liquid lightning, shields and c-frags on demand.
On my Stamden I got Lotus, Caltrops, Injection, Subassault, Endless hail, Relequen, trap and netch.
4vs8
I wouldn't think about a rotation like individual skills. Map out the timers on paper, in your head, or on screen recording while you figure out the parse, and commit it to muscle memory. You're doing the parse for the same amount of time on either, assuming they're equally powerful.
Treat it like a rotation. The same way RTS players make opening, midgame, and endgame build orders for the competitive scene.
PVE is a lot more proactive, just like PVP is reactive. Less variables, and they're all known. Plan!
@Judas Helviaryn That's what I did on my magSorc. I just learned what I needed to do and the rest is muscle memory. Sorc also has the advantage of getting a sound, graphic and buff display when a c-frag is ready.
My stamden has just too much to do. It's too complicated to develop muscle memory for. A big part in this is probably the delay of every skill that makes harder to "feel" what you are doing. Do you have any tip for me beyond that?This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would this work on something other than warden with no less than a 5k dps loss on a near perfect rotation.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions0 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »Would this work on something other than warden with no less than a 5k dps loss on a near perfect rotation.
I think sets can probably carry you to 40k dps with any setup. I’m currently testing this on DK on the PTS, but haven’t perfected the build/rotation yet. Even still, I’m approaching 40k despite DK having next to nothing applicable other than cost reduction to snipe.Edited by Draxys on March 11, 2019 5:25AM2013
rip decibel1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It can be pushed forward to radicolous numbers especially when used with shadow silk synergy which bow/bow setups have the easiest acces to. Here's achievement of someone who is testing lately with that setup.
Edited by Juhasow on March 11, 2019 5:31AM1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭It can be pushed forward to radicolous numbers especially when used with shadow silk synergy which bow/bow setups have the easiest acces to. Here's achievement of someone who is testing lately with that setup.
Don’t Mages have the same access to this and also is this the meta for any build to run... I’m confused.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »It can be pushed forward to radicolous numbers especially when used with shadow silk synergy which bow/bow setups have the easiest acces to. Here's achievement of someone who is testing lately with that setup.
Don’t Mages have the same access to this and also is this the meta for any build to run... I’m confused.
It's posion/physical dmg synergy that scales out of wep crit which makes it better for stamina setups. It have 12 meters minimum range someobody needs to be away from place where ability was thrown on the ground that's why bow setups are best for most organic use of it without overcomplicating rotation. It's not the meta...for now. Time will tell what will happen.Edited by Juhasow on March 11, 2019 5:41AM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.
Technically it never exceeds minor berserk because it never buffs anything more than bow skills ^^
Really? It says it buffs "bow abilities", which normally would include basic attacks along with skills.
Of course, that would still exclude Caltrops, Lightweight Beast Trap (if used), and monster set procs (if any).
@FrancisCrawford I mean, bow light attacks are still bow skills, at least by ZoS standards, but % of bow abilities rarely even reaches 50% of DPS (and that is usually already with 4-6% from long shots), therefore 8% to all abilities will simply be always superior to 12% to bow abilities, hency why only warden and nightblades can even think of scenario of going far away (still need to take care of healing and getting major courage buff)
For example long long time ago (so dont take it as currently relevant piece of info) playing stamsorc and standing within hurricane range was doing same or even more dps than standing far away to fully benefit from long shots.Edited by SodanTok on March 11, 2019 11:59AM1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Somber97866 wrote: »Don't you lose a lot of dps the closet you get?
Long shots does not increase your damage in any meaningful way, the damage increase is lower than minor berserk, because of how it is calculated ☹️
How so? Naively, I'd think they would be subject to the same haircut -- in or reasonably close to the 30-35% range for most builds that I've calcuated out -- that other +damage% numbers are. What's different in the way Long Shots is accounted for?
Quoting @SodanTok below.Sure, use a bow, but that had nothing to do with bow/bow builds. My point is the entire design of bows from the ground up looks like it’s designed for pvp.
Sure you can stay max range on a bow, just don’t expect any buffs or heals, it’s at odds with all the healing mechanics of the game. You can either stand in a spot where you’ll get healing and buffs (between the healer and the boss) or stay in a spot to take advantage of using a bow, the dps a bow/bow can hit are irrelevant.
Thinking bow/bow is about staying in 28m range to get 12% (additive with CP) boost to only bow skills is so so 2016... Only newbs are running around behind healer because they dont understand the passive damage boost is negligible and also outperformed by minor berserk in every situation (in case you cant get it yourself).
It is additive with CP.
Also a very useful diagram on his comment quoted here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5790198#Comment_5790198
Thanks!
Looks like it matches or exceeds Minor Berserk from 17 or more meters out, although the excess is capped at 2% except under unrealistically perfect circumstances. But hey, if there's free Minor Berserk closer in, and you're not on a class that gets it anyway, that's obviously the better way to go. Besides, my bow/bow focus is currently DK, and Flames of Oblivion only has a 15 meter range.
Technically it never exceeds minor berserk because it never buffs anything more than bow skills ^^
Really? It says it buffs "bow abilities", which normally would include basic attacks along with skills.
Of course, that would still exclude Caltrops, Lightweight Beast Trap (if used), and monster set procs (if any).
@FrancisCrawford I mean, bow light attacks are still bow skills, at least by ZoS standards, but % of bow abilities rarely even reaches 50% of DPS (and that is usually already with 4-6% from long shots), therefore 8% to all abilities will simply be always superior to 12% to bow abilities, hency why only warden and nightblades can even think of scenario of going far away (still need to take care of healing and getting major courage buff)
For example long long time ago (so dont take it as currently relevant piece of info) playing stamsorc and standing within hurricane range was doing same or even more dps than standing far away to fully benefit from long shots.
Got it. Thanks!
The thing is, I've only played one bow/bow build, and that the past few weeks. And in my case, bow really is a huge fraction of the damage, because the spammable is Lethal Arrow, the character doesn't have Caltrops yet, and since she in fact doesn't even have Vigor I don't want to take the magicka away from Green Dragon Blood to spend on Fires of Oblivion instead.
Besides, the Minor Berserk discussion is moot for me for the same reasons I care so much about self-healing; I'm duoing with a partner who is a fine tank but provides no more heal-other support than I am.
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satanio✭✭✭✭
Viable substitution for relequen is hundings or automaton.Facefister wrote: »"Viable" build followed by an obligatory parse with relequen.0