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The Alcast no CP vMOL run, is CP really the culprit in power creep?
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Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
The problem with CP is not that it directly generate that much raw power. Without the red CP tree you'll notice they all had to build a lot more defensively (one of them even went as far as getting over 20k health on top of defensive monster set). Without these trade off you can build for even more damage while still surviving the content.
If I remember correctly the whole run was actually because ZOS asked Hodor to do it as test for how impactful CP was.
And it showed CP was no where near as impactful as many thought.Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 8:56PM4 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There is a difference between power creep of CPs and power creep of sets. When it comes to sets each role especially DD invests into sets directly improving the most needed aspect of that role for example DDs are wearing full damage dealing setups. When it comes to CPs , power creep from that system is increasing damage , healing , sustain etc all together. So yeah when we compare damage from sets vs dmg from CPs then sets win but when we compare sets vs whole spectrum of CPs then CP system provides higher increase in power creep.1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
The problem with CP is not that it directly generate that much raw power. Without the red CP tree you'll notice they all had to build a lot more defensively (one of them even went as far as getting over 20k health on top of defensive monster set). Without these trade off you can build for even more damage while still surviving the content.
If I remember correctly the whole run was actually because ZOS asked Hodor to do it as test for how impactful CP was.
And it showed CP was no where near as impactful as many thought.
It actually showed opposite. If team that normally finishes vMoL in 15 minutes , gets highest scores and could do it with closed eyes now struggles to do it , wipes and needs 2 hours to finish then it shows how impactfull CPs are. It's also worth to mention it was not fully "0 Cp run" since they've spent 300 CP at certain point on last boss.Edited by Juhasow on March 8, 2019 5:23AM5 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭one thread says theres powercreep the other thread says the vet dlc dungeon completion rates are beyond abysmal.
ill fix it for you so it makes sense:
theres power creep in the top 5% of players.
only a few years left to go now....
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard3 -
DivineFirstYOLO✭✭✭✭Animation canceling top end macros are power creep
animation canceling and macros here we go again XD
Just recently I had to level a stam NB for raid, did 4-5 dummy tests every day to become better..thats like 10 mins of work. Maybe you should do the same so you do not have to cry about animation canceling and macros any more.Edited by DivineFirstYOLO on March 7, 2019 10:58PMZerg Squad
Godslayer x 4
Pro questing fees for RPers in Cyrodiil, pay your taxes!
PC - EU8 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
The problem with CP is not that it directly generate that much raw power. Without the red CP tree you'll notice they all had to build a lot more defensively (one of them even went as far as getting over 20k health on top of defensive monster set). Without these trade off you can build for even more damage while still surviving the content.
If I remember correctly the whole run was actually because ZOS asked Hodor to do it as test for how impactful CP was.
And it showed CP was no where near as impactful as many thought.
It actually showed that Alcast was right. Most of the DPS they lost can be accounted for by them changing their builds to be more defensive. However, even though they were stacking higher health and wearing defensive monster sets they were still getting one shotted constantly.
And we're talking about a team which clearly know the mechanics and how to deal with them.
CP is not the only contributor to the power creep but it definitely is one of them.1 -
Zedrian✭✭✭one thread says theres powercreep the other thread says the vet dlc dungeon completion rates are beyond abysmal.
ill fix it for you so it makes sense:
theres power creep in the top 5% of players.
In the new DLC dungeons you don’t need big DPS to clear them. In fact the developers made it so that if you burst through mechanics your group will be overwhelmed. A good example is Vykosa in Moon Hunter Keep where taking it slow is better than bursting through the percentages. On the other hand knowing the mechanics is key to completing the instance and your comment about completion rate being abysmal only means that the majority of the players don’t know the mechanics.
vMoL isn’t difficult if you are attentive to the mechanics... especially on PC.... If your group doesn’t have enough DPS to phase Rakkhat, then going through the lunar phase is really easy if the group is well organized. For all the vet and hard mode trials, what is time consuming is to learn the mechanics, positioning and team coordination.
Removing CP only widens the gap between newer players and experienced players because experienced players know to adapt and as someone said in this post, the flat value stats you gain from the first 300CP is massive in comparison to the remaining 510 CPs.
The two problems I have with the game is:
1) the game does not teach new players to perfect their gameplay... especially true on console which widens the gap
2) the older content keeps getting easier because Zenimax keeps nerfing the difficulty levels as to make them accessible to newer players. Making it boring for the experience PvE players
Edited by Zedrian on March 7, 2019 11:56PM4 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few rings true here, while there are players who play ESO on 24/7 basis, they need to cater for the players who don't get the time to farm for 6 hours looking for equipment or learning mechanics of vMA over and over
The very few are the ones who provide 90 % of the jobs, think of this when you say things like this.
Design soley for elite is not good, and neither is the contrary
They don't really. In a broader economic sense it's SMEs that provide the overwhelming majority of jobs.0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro)
Dunno what server you're on.1 -
russelmmendoza✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am so glad well known eso community players are showing no cp achievements.
Because a gaming company keeps insisting that their cp points is the culprit of many wrong things in their game.0 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would be cool to see the same run being done with Champion Points(capped at whatever the cap was when Thieves Guild released) but with old sets that were more popular around that time like Julianos/Hundings, Willpower/Agility,etc.0 -
Girl_Number8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Both CP and gear are source of insane power creep and BOTH need deep and thorough nerf (removal of CP as power enhamcing thing and change to utility one)
Not really, when you have been playing the same content for years and are the top leader board players that actually work with Zos testing things out. People use their buzz words more then actual thinking. It is called experience and they did not do this on every platform, so go do a non cp Vet trial and see how you do. Most players cannot even complete the Vet dlc dungeons as it is now because I am always hearing requests for Zaan on the golden vendor every week. Show us your achievements and all the skins you have earned before asking for nerfs and your godly builds that make everything too easy. [edit]
[edited for non-constructive comment]
Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on March 8, 2019 6:52PM3 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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Short, sweet, and painfully truthful.Dragneel1207 wrote: »CP is not the cause for the power creep.
If is it so then i should be powerful with the cp i have
and i am not powerful
Well done, @Dragneel1207 , seriously.
There are exceptions you're missing here, not the least of which is the players behind the run.russelmmendoza wrote: »I am so glad well known eso community players are showing no cp achievements.
Because a gaming company keeps insisting that their cp points is the culprit of many wrong things in their game.
It's not just one thing. CP's are part of it. Gear is part of it. Experience and skill are part of it.
The trick is going to be getting the latter to have a much larger effect than the former does without making it too extreme.
They're in the midst of trying to figure out how to unwreck a train, because for every time they've tried some method to dial things back, they've turned around and marketed things two steps further in the wrong direction.
People don't like losing power, so once they started, the only direction they could go was forward without pissing almost everybody off.
Now they get to figure out how they're going to try to salvage this for both ceiling, floor, and everything in between.
That's a job I sincerely do not envy.
Edited by Merlin13KAGL on March 8, 2019 4:08AMJust because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS2 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro)
Dunno what server you're on.
Yeah, I’m curious about that as well. Sotha has been a dead campaign for pretty much as long as I’ve played...
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Lifemocker✭✭✭I don’t think that just because the best group in the game is able to pull this off means that cp doesn’t buff damage a lot.
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Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lifemocker wrote: »I don’t think that just because the best group in the game is able to pull this off means that cp doesn’t buff damage a lot.
Their dps with defensive optimization and no-cp now is the same as their initial clears with 310cp (~30k dps per person)
So logically, the majority of that damage power does not come from CP. Primarily it comes from experience, new gear, new foods (double max stat + double sustain foods vs ye olde dual-stat foods), enchant changes, and light attack buffs
I will give you that defensive power of CP is significant, but clearly it’s not a make or break thing for the groups with experience. What it would break is the progression groups, the new players just getting into vet trials and vet DLC achievement runs. It would not make the causal or mid-tier playerbase any closer to the endgame raid communities’ skill levels. If anything it would set them even further apart.1 -
Lifemocker✭✭✭Lifemocker wrote: »I don’t think that just because the best group in the game is able to pull this off means that cp doesn’t buff damage a lot.
Their dps with defensive optimization and no-cp now is the same as their initial clears with 310cp (~30k dps per person)
So logically, the majority of that damage power does not come from CP. Primarily it comes from experience, new gear, new foods (double max stat + double sustain foods vs ye olde dual-stat foods), enchant changes, and light attack buffs
Of course not majority of the damage comes from cp but it does boost damage enough to notice the difference.
I’m now actually interested to see what the difference actually is. I don’t remember seeing tests with no cp.0 -
SaintSubwayy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good players are the problem.
Jeah lets ban everybody that deals over 40k dps on a dummy.....
pls gimme the stuff you're smoking, so i can calm down my nerves
PC EU
vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vSS HM / vKA HM
Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Dawnbringer / Griphon Heart / Master Angler / Spirit Slayer1 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭He´s right though.
People get better. Once you figure something out in this game, be it combat technique, hotkeys, optimising gear... you are stronger, pretty much permanently.
The fundamental problem is still (dead horse turning to mincemeat) that ZOS has so far insisted on putting in only one difficulty setting for much of the content, and intending it to be non-challenging for the new player.
And stopping players from progressing statswise, or worse, dialing them back, would be a really bad 'solution' imo.Edited by MaleAmazon on March 8, 2019 8:33AM0 -
polgarah✭✭✭It actually showed opposite. If team that normally finishes vMoL in 15 minutes , gets highest scores and could do it with closed eyes now struggles to do it , wipes and needs 2 hours to finish then it shows how impactfull CPs are. It's also worth to mention it was not fully "0 Cp run" since they've spent 300 CP at certain point on last boss.
It actually showed opposite because you're forgetting that vMoL was design for people with more than 500 cps
Edited by polgarah on March 8, 2019 9:13AM0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Please, dont nerf the game for 99% of players for the 1% to be slightly happier than it already is...2 -
MaselClass RepresentativeGenerally the increased power we got from CPs, gear, skill changes etc. led to a homogenisation of classes where they took power away from them to compensate, which is harmful to the unique feeling that classes should have.
We talked about that with the devs and hopefully, we got a point across where we dont want to be feeling powerful because of gear/cp/generic skills, but we want classes to feel unique and get a feeling of distinguishable power from them in all roles.
PC EU
All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA4 -
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Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tonnopesce wrote: »the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro)
Dunno what server you're on.
If you consider pve nightcap or pvdoor real pvp... i dunno manEdited by Tonnopesce on March 8, 2019 10:40AMSignature0 -
bol✭✭✭What this run showed is the importance of the Red CP tree more than anything else. The mechanics are so unforgiving that they require a certain amount of damage mitigation to complete. The damage lost due to having 0 cp was actually not that large, as you have to attribute lots of DPS loss to the usage of defensive builds and most importantly due to the fact that they were not running 8 stamblade DDs for the run. Even by using full CP with the group composition they had they would not be even close to making any record finishing times. But lets not make this about balance thread, it is just a fact we need to take into considerations when comparing group damage output.
So to recap, what this run showed is that the mechanics in the game require certain damage mitigation to complete or they are simply impossible. So the so called power creep from the CP is actually required to complete the content. A well coordinated group consisting of best players needed 300cp to complete this content. How much CP does a group of more casual players need? 810? 1000? How much CPs would a PUG group need?0 -
xMovingTarget✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well. I quit eso end 2015. At that point we hit around 25k dps if everything went fine.
Returned in november. With my dk and the same gear and cp I had back when I quit, I instantly hit 35-40k dps. So they must have increased skills etc. This is not mainly gear or cp. Not at all.Edited by xMovingTarget on March 8, 2019 11:17AM0 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Ironically, skills were nerfed
CP+Gear need a HUGE nerf to bring it down to the base game because power creep has spiraled out of control and its starting to screw up the whole game.0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ironically, skills were nerfed
CP+Gear need a HUGE nerf to bring it down to the base game because power creep has spiraled out of control and its starting to screw up the whole game.
I simply cannot believe that people ask to be nerfed like that because top 1% of players say that the hardest content is to easy for them.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 8, 2019 11:31AM2 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Player power adjustments require content adjustments too. It isnt to be done in isolation, JUST remove CP and nerf gear, but ENTIRE (upper level) content difficulty reworked (as i have said quite a few times so far)
Because such insane power creep is very very bad for long term propsepcts as it obsoletes 99% of the game.Edited by MikaHR on March 8, 2019 11:35AM1