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The Alcast no CP vMOL run, is CP really the culprit in power creep?
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are people acting like power creep can only come from one source? Of course CP leeds to power creep, but so do new sets and about half of the balance decisions they make. You know what else leads to power creep? Practice and knowledge of older content.
This line of thinking is the same nonsense that drives political memes on facebook, pretending that there is only one cause for any effect. In reality, that is almost never the case.10 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.Edited by Tonnopesce on March 7, 2019 5:20PMSignature0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!9 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The real problem here is viewing power creep through the eyes of the less then 1% that make up a class of extraordinary players. For the rest of us, power creep, to whatever extent it actually exists and has a measurable affect, is a welcome relief that can assist us through more difficult content. It's troubling that ZOS sees CP as the root of power creep, or even that power creep is an issue at all.8 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭
lol no doubt. It must be a coincidence I was a much better player 18 years ago when I had the time to play 50+ hours a week.1 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You know what else leads to power creep? Practice and knowledge of older content.
Whoa, you’re right! ZOS please nerf knowledge and skill!!! 🤣🤣🤣
3 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
Anyone, barring someone with a physical or mental handicap (and I daresay I've seen some with one or both still able to overcome obstacles to be good at this game), can complete vMoL if they're willing to put in the time. When that place dropped, it took quite a while before any teams cleared vet, and it took people running it over and over, hammering out mechanics day after day, before they finally got it. This was all before people were hitting the numbers they have now, and back when CP was capped at around 600-something. I don't know where players got the idea they should be able to waltz into any content and just smash through it without putting in some hours and some sweat, and if they can't do it on the first try, it's the game's fault, but that is absolutely absurd.
Yes, these guys were able to pull this off when most of the rest of the community lacks the immediate ability to do so, but they have logged likely hundreds of hours in there, and know those mechanics better than anyone by now. I'm not saying power creep doesn't exist, but I will say it isn't the reason most people don't have completes in the end game content. The completes are low because interest in actually working toward a goal while putting in the time to get there is lacking. And you know what? That's actually fine. This content (on vet) is not for the person who only has the time or inclination to play an hour or two a week, and there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to play that way. What IS wrong however, is someone playing that way, and then refusing to acknowledge that some content will be inaccessible to them as a natural result of their choices. I 100% guarantee you, if more players began putting in the hours to actually focus on progressing the difficult content, they'd get their completes. I don't mean jumping into an experienced group and getting half carried while trying desperately not to die too often, but actually working with a team of equal experience, and learning it together, like the first teams did.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero6 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You know what else leads to power creep? Practice and knowledge of older content.
Whoa, you’re right! ZOS please nerf knowledge and skill!!! 🤣🤣🤣
It seems like some people never want the average player to be able to complete older content.
They want this "perceived" power creep addressed becuase more than the 1% of the players might be able to finally do older content as new content is released.
That seems to be the definition developing for power creep.Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 6:18PM5 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.3 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »You know what else leads to power creep? Practice and knowledge of older content.
Whoa, you’re right! ZOS please nerf knowledge and skill!!! 🤣🤣🤣
It seems like some people never want the average player to be able to complete older content.
They want this "perceived" power creep addressed becuase more than the 1% of the players might be able to finally do older content as new content is released.
That seems to be the definition developing for power creep.
Please point out who said that. If that were the case then I wouldn't see zone chat spammed with guilds looking for raiders like I do now.They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Raammzzaa✭✭✭✭✭It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.
I don’t see how a low CP player going into Vivec, and getting packed up by an 810 forces nerfs to anything. Other than that if they’re a snowflake they’ll run to the forum and cry for a nerf to whatever they think killed them other than themselves, which is unfortunately all too common.
3 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 7:12PM4 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.
I don’t see how a low CP player going into Vivec, and getting packed up by an 810 forces nerfs to anything. Other than that if they’re a snowflake they’ll run to the forum and cry for a nerf to whatever they think killed them other than themselves, which is unfortunately all too common.
...
Dynamic between players affected by that instance of power creep. Not some low level going into a CP campaign.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
firedrgn✭✭✭✭✭Lets be real here. They were completing this with cp and older sets a long time ago. Im not supprised i can be done with new sets and no cp.
I would not be suprised if they can do them naked or broom and bucket like Gilliam did vma a long time ago.
They are not the majority of players tho.
I would be disappointed if tTonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
Seems irrelevant as everyone has access to the same cp same sets.
Or no cp same sets.
Its already been sloved has it not. Someone that
Is Going into a cp campaign with no cp and then crying about power creep needs help in decision making.
0 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.
I don’t see how a low CP player going into Vivec, and getting packed up by an 810 forces nerfs to anything. Other than that if they’re a snowflake they’ll run to the forum and cry for a nerf to whatever they think killed them other than themselves, which is unfortunately all too common.
Yeah well you actually already answered...Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
Ok i'm all for level advantage but Cp are not levels, they are not related to gear after a certain point, when i go in cp cyrodill if someone have less than 500 cp it gets basically erased.
The issue here is that we have 1 game with both pvp and pve and guess what? the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro) and in pve we have a massive face-roll issue where everyone ignore the game mechanics and burn down everything with RAW POWER, going back to the thread when Hodor started the trial Alcast himself was "worried" about half of the people in the raid had never done the lunar phase in the last vmol boss because usually they burned down before the mechanics happens...
You know... power creep exist and honestly i don't know how to solve it but i like more sets and unique abilities rather than % of power.
Told this i'm at 810++ cp so i have everything to lose here, but simply i don't care, if the game become better overall.
Edited by Tonnopesce on March 7, 2019 7:26PMSignature0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭It doesn't matter if CP contributes to power creep. All that matters is whether the CP system is good for the game. I don't think it is.0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.
I don’t see how a low CP player going into Vivec, and getting packed up by an 810 forces nerfs to anything. Other than that if they’re a snowflake they’ll run to the forum and cry for a nerf to whatever they think killed them other than themselves, which is unfortunately all too common.
Yeah well you actually already answered...Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
Ok i'm all for level advantage but Cp are not levels, they are not related to gear after a certain point, when i go in cp cyrodill if someone have less than 500 cp it gets basically erased.
The issue here is that we have 1 game with both pvp and pve and guess what? the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro) and in pve we have a massive face-roll issue where everyone ignore the game mechanics and burn down everything with RAW POWER, going back to the thread when Hodor started the trial Alcast himself was "worried" about half of the people in the raid had never done the lunar phase in the last vmol boss because usually they burned down before the mechanics happens...
You know... power creep exist and honestly i don't know how to solve it but i like more sets and unique abilities rather than % of power.
Told this i'm at 810++ cp so i have everything to lose here, but simply i don't care if the game become better overall.
Actually CP PvP Cyro is more popular. For BG I have no idea. As for PvE I do believe power creep is possible but CP is not the cuase if it is a real issue. My belief is the issue is scalable content and gear, not that power creep in of itself is the problem.Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 7:32PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.
Power creep is the accumulated power level that is a result of using character power as an incentive to keep playing/play new content. It doesn't require any power difference between different characters.
Now, "power" isn't a single item that you can substract and expect to find any meaningful information.
Adding the same amount of "power" to all player characters will still change the dynamic between them, this has to be corrected to ensure a somewhat enjoyable PvP gameplay, and so we get nerfs to class defining skills in exchange for CP and stat boosting sets.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.
Power creep is the accumulated power level that is a result of using character power as an incentive to keep playing/play new content. It doesn't require any power difference between different characters.
Now, "power" isn't a single item that you can substract and expect to find any meaningful information.
Adding the same amount of "power" to all player characters will still change the dynamic between them, this has to be corrected to ensure a somewhat enjoyable PvP gameplay, and so we get nerfs to class defining skills in exchange for CP and stat boosting sets.
You have implied adding the same as amount of power to two players somehow gives one of the players an advantage. Sorry I can not take your post seriously.
If every gets the same power increase what exactly is power creep? What creeped against what?0 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
You cant do all of those things at the same time. Just see how many of those riding the insane power creep now start demanding "harder overland content", which would basically create new tier of base content/gear. And we already had that at launch...and well... it ended up VERY badly.
Thats why CP+gear power creep has to be thwarted and brought down and "difficulty" of instanced content completely reworked in coherent "difficulty setttings", meaning ALL "normal" dungeons should be roughly same difficulty, ALL "normal" trials should be about same "difficulty" ALL "vet" dungeons should be about same difficulty... ... ...and all gear should be about the same power level.
And CPs turend to utility/QoL system (think of green stars in current system) with NO combat power increasing features.Edited by MikaHR on March 7, 2019 7:45PM0 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tonnopesce wrote: »It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.
I don’t see how a low CP player going into Vivec, and getting packed up by an 810 forces nerfs to anything. Other than that if they’re a snowflake they’ll run to the forum and cry for a nerf to whatever they think killed them other than themselves, which is unfortunately all too common.
Yeah well you actually already answered...Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
Ok i'm all for level advantage but Cp are not levels, they are not related to gear after a certain point, when i go in cp cyrodill if someone have less than 500 cp it gets basically erased.
The issue here is that we have 1 game with both pvp and pve and guess what? the most popular pvp in the game is no cp ( both battelgrounds and no cp cyro) and in pve we have a massive face-roll issue where everyone ignore the game mechanics and burn down everything with RAW POWER, going back to the thread when Hodor started the trial Alcast himself was "worried" about half of the people in the raid had never done the lunar phase in the last vmol boss because usually they burned down before the mechanics happens...
You know... power creep exist and honestly i don't know how to solve it but i like more sets and unique abilities rather than % of power.
Told this i'm at 810++ cp so i have everything to lose here, but simply i don't care if the game become better overall.
Actually CP PvP Cyro is more popular. For BG I have no idea. As for PvE I do believe power creep is possible but CP is not the cuase if it is a real issue. My belief is the issue is scalable content and gear, not that power creep in of itself is the problem.
Now honestly...
Even if you are right , or the power creep crew is right it will only get worst the more we go on, now i think is the right time for zos to take action and do something, or with better designed dungeons/trials made in order to avoid to skip mechanics and with some solutions in pvp... Or with some sort of hard caps so that people cannot become more powerful that how we are now.
Again if the game become overall better i'm all for it.Signature0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.
Power creep is the accumulated power level that is a result of using character power as an incentive to keep playing/play new content. It doesn't require any power difference between different characters.
Now, "power" isn't a single item that you can substract and expect to find any meaningful information.
Adding the same amount of "power" to all player characters will still change the dynamic between them, this has to be corrected to ensure a somewhat enjoyable PvP gameplay, and so we get nerfs to class defining skills in exchange for CP and stat boosting sets.
You have implied adding the same as amount of power to two players somehow gives one of the players an advantage. Sorry I can not take your post seriously.
If every gets the same power increase what exactly is power creep? What creeped against what?
I have implied no such thing. I have stated multiple times that it does change the dynamic of a fight between them, with the example of changing the TTK.
I stated what power creep is in the very post you quoted. And it creeps upwards. As in slow power increase. Not against any limit. You know, that's kind of the crux of the issue...DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want to look for power creep in this game, you don´t have to look further than this:
Players have gotten better and better sets, you can now get great sets like unperfected Relequen (or whatever you´d call it) by being a complete nincompoop and just run around, die, and be carried by the other 11 players in nCR a few times.
Hunding´s or Julianos can be crafted by others.
Once you have managed to get a new good set, or upgrade a set, that is a permanent improvement to your character.
As time goes by and they do dungeons again and again, people learn mechanics.
Compared to this, the added difficulty has been added in DLC dungeons (which many people even refuse to try to play on normal) and trials where it is hard to even get to play them, at least in vet.
There has not been a single difficult solo instance added since Maelstrom Arena.
Simply put, as you play you become progressively stronger by several mechanics (learning to weave attacks, adapting your skillset, getting more gear, better food, CP, golding out stuff, etc etc). The sum of this is that you improve quite a bit, meanwhile the game itself never really becomes more difficult.
And yes, this all ends in my usual "we need added overland difficulty" rant
Edited by MaleAmazon on March 7, 2019 7:59PM0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.
Power creep is the accumulated power level that is a result of using character power as an incentive to keep playing/play new content. It doesn't require any power difference between different characters.
Now, "power" isn't a single item that you can substract and expect to find any meaningful information.
Adding the same amount of "power" to all player characters will still change the dynamic between them, this has to be corrected to ensure a somewhat enjoyable PvP gameplay, and so we get nerfs to class defining skills in exchange for CP and stat boosting sets.
You have implied adding the same as amount of power to two players somehow gives one of the players an advantage. Sorry I can not take your post seriously.
If every gets the same power increase what exactly is power creep? What creeped against what?
I have implied no such thing. I have stated multiple times that it does change the dynamic of a fight between them, with the example of changing the TTK.
I stated what power creep is in the very post you quoted. And it creeps upwards. As in slow power increase. Not against any limit. You know, that's kind of the crux of the issue...
Please explain how two people having the same power is power creep?
I stand by what I said you implied. Saying two people getting the same power increase changes the dynamic does not explain anything. Yes you have implied with that statement that two people getting the same power increase somehow makes one of them better.
If what you are creeping against is the same power there was no creep.Edited by Skwor on March 7, 2019 8:09PM0 -
shack80✭✭✭well, they finished all the hardest content and want more, new challenges, i assume.
Cure cancer.
Seriously, looking at the achievements of elite players, and extrapolating anything from that is stupid. Designing any content in a game around what very very few people can do is a recipe for failure.
Its not. Any1 can be a elite player if they want. Only thing that is hard is to get them all at the same group. You can be good or you can whine how hard the game is, your choise.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
This is just a very PvE focused mindset.
1.) The difference between 0 CP and CP cap is massive, forcing new players to play in no CP for PvP. But the difference also makes balancing the two at the same time impossible.
2.) In PvP, additional CP are still far more effective than in PvE as everyone makes use of defense, off stat sustain and healing. This creates very serious power creep.
3.) In PvE you can scale mobs so that no one actually gets more powerful. In PvP you have to nerf things because just adding power to everyone will change the combat dynamics (such as TTK). So no, it's not fine.
PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
You are not going to avoid the advantage a person has in PvP when they have more levels wether it is level 30 to 50 or CP 10 to CP 810.
PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it. Go play a non CP server for your solution.
Imo power creep has no sensible discussion in PvP for the above reason.
I'm really not sure what kind of argument you're trying to make here. You do understand what power creep is? That it exists in PvP is not negotiable, the effects are what I was talking about.PvP is a different situation. I would not call it power creep though, it is level advantage.
A player fighting an opponent with less CP than them has an advantage. The CP cap being raised to allow for more powerful characters creates power creep. Those are two different things.
I just explained how it does. It changes the combat dynamics, forcing nerfs to previous power sources such as skills.PvP is not about power vs content it is player power vs player power. Power creep has nothing to do with it.
How does one have power creep against another player when both have the ability to have the exact same power by being the same level? I understood very well the issue. Perhaps you do not?
PvE can have power creep becuase content sometimes does not scale to the player. In PvP players can always scale to players, as such you cannot have power creep but instead you are just out leveling a player who will eventually catch up.
If you have a problem with someone having more CP in PvP just play a non CP server, problem solved. Stop trying to change the CP server.
Power creep is the accumulated power level that is a result of using character power as an incentive to keep playing/play new content. It doesn't require any power difference between different characters.
Now, "power" isn't a single item that you can substract and expect to find any meaningful information.
Adding the same amount of "power" to all player characters will still change the dynamic between them, this has to be corrected to ensure a somewhat enjoyable PvP gameplay, and so we get nerfs to class defining skills in exchange for CP and stat boosting sets.
You have implied adding the same as amount of power to two players somehow gives one of the players an advantage. Sorry I can not take your post seriously.
If every gets the same power increase what exactly is power creep? What creeped against what?
I have implied no such thing. I have stated multiple times that it does change the dynamic of a fight between them, with the example of changing the TTK.
I stated what power creep is in the very post you quoted. And it creeps upwards. As in slow power increase. Not against any limit. You know, that's kind of the crux of the issue...
Please explain how two people having the same power is power creep?
I stand by what I said you implied. Saying two people getting the same power increase changes the dynamic does not explain anything. Yes you have implied with that statement that two people getting the same power increase somehow makes one of them better.
If what you are creeping against is the same power there was no creep.
This is getting tiring, not gonna entertain this discussion any more after this comment.
I literally defined the term power creep as I used it. There is no element anything is creeping against. If you want to talk about a different thing you do that, but it doesn't change what I stated.
I still haven't implied any such thing. The individual changes can affect one build more than another and so create imbalance, but it's not necessary.
Imagine everyone dealt 5% more damage after some update. Fights now resolve slightly faster. Now this happens 10 times in a row. To prevent one shots some burst combos get nerfed, while players either build more tanky to keep their survivability or invest more and more of their available resources into damage stats to counter that trend. In the end we have a gameplay no one really enjoys anymore.Edited by ToRelax on March 7, 2019 8:40PMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Tonnopesce wrote: »Tonnopesce wrote: »TheInfernalRage wrote: »Because it looks like the sets are also responsible.
I'we watched it live and it was very entertaining... but they where a really well organized group who knew all the mechanichs of the trial, i have on my templar the same healer sets and my dk is also equipped with hig end tial sets but i would never dream to attempt what they have done.
You need to put togheder sets, skills and group organization, without cp they almost had the same dps of 810 cp pugs, it was a amazing to watch..
You cannot pretend to perform as a top tier player even if you have the same armour/weapon sets and cp, you know hodor is the best trial guild in the wold for a reason.
Sets +cp togheder are what create the power creep.
Even them at the end of the run said that for the HM boss fight they needed some cp into damage reduction.
IMHO the solution is in between.
They did it with no CP until the end. Only if they could do it naked with full CP could you argue CP is an issue.
CP is not an issue for power creep.
Power creep is not an issue if game encounters/mechanics scale correctly.
Not HM tho...
The game provides enought challenge if is well balanced, i personally love how zos inplement sets and abilities related to them, cp are just raw power and combined with newer and better designed sets create the power creep.
We need a max level with cp and since the game suffers already with 810 i believe that we reached the max .
I still remember a nb back in the days facerolling solo Vet DSA with 3600 cp... things have changed but the problem was already there.
Why does this keep getting ignored. CP does not generate so much raw power that it causes power creep. If it did then why does 501 CP in 2016 generate the same DPS as 0 CP in 2019?
With diminishing returns CP is effectively neutered.
And to reiterate power creep is fine if the game scales correctly. Most of us want to get more powerful against stronger content in an MMO. We are not looking to play a horizontally linear graphic novel for pete's sake!
The problem with CP is not that it directly generate that much raw power. Without the red CP tree you'll notice they all had to build a lot more defensively (one of them even went as far as getting over 20k health on top of defensive monster set). Without these trade off you can build for even more damage while still surviving the content.
If I remember correctly the whole run was actually because ZOS asked Hodor to do it as test for how impactful CP was.0