... because it really doesn't seem that way, most of the time. In case the devs are listening or are open to listening (perhaps @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can confirm?), here's a list of some of the worst long-standing issues in BGs. I encourage anyone who's reading to add anything I may have missed.
3. Long Queue Times:
Also thanks to the MMR system, many of us are stuck with long wait times, particularly during prime time hours. On my main, I'm usually facing a wait of 10+ minutes per match. At certain times of the day, I get instant queues. but that's mostly because I'm being pulled in near the end of a match to replace someone who rage-quit thanks to a toxic premade. When playing on alts, the queue time is always instant or close to instant; this leads me to believe that it is NOT a player population issue, but rather an MMR issue.
4. Pet Stacking/Pet Targeting:
This is partly related to my first point, but I'm mentioning it separately because it's significant enough of an issue to warrant its own discussion. Pet stacking in BG maps, which are relatively small areas, highlights glaring issues with pet targeting in PVP environments. Premades that are built to maximize the number of pets around them essentially gain free damage mitigation against single target attacks. If the group is skilled at kiting, they can keep their pets in front of them at all times, making themselves virtually untargetable. AOEs are a potential solution, but many burst rotations in PVP rely on single target abilities. I've lost track now of the sheer number of WW direwolves or scamps who have eaten my incaps or my frags in BGs... It's frustrating trying to target players through that many pets, and it creates a chaotic, zerg-like atmosphere (especially if each team features multiple pet builds) in a small area that is supposed to be dedicated to small-scale PVP.
I do a ton of BGs and really don't see some of the points you are raising. Thus your subject is somewhat bait, as its your view not 'ours'
1. Yes they are listening, check the patch notes
2. Unsure what ZOS can do. Personally don't feel this, i did pre Summerset, but now pop is popping
3. Again, preSS yes, not any more weekday evenings or weekend. I'm Xbox EU when do you play / context
4. Not an issue. Every class has things to deal with / counter. They all have pros and cons. I.e. Pets are ok for me, i hate wings spam.
5. Not seen these personally, bar the ball once. But agree bugs need fixing.
Personally played a ton of BG's in 2017, and started again regular of late and feel they in a better place than most of 2018. Perhaps my MMR finally dropped lol or its when i play / platform, but i don't feel the pain you do
What annoys me - influx of snipe stickers and tether tanks, drawing out games.
Based on anecdotal patch-day experience, the change had no noticeable effect on high MMR Battlegrounds for PC-NA. There's a chance that it helped at low/mid MMR levels, where there are supposedly a lot of premade teams, but my first 1.5 - 2 hours of queueing last night involved at least one 3-4 man team in every single game.1. I've read the patch notes. Nowhere is there any talk of outright separating premades from solo queued players -- just the same old wishy washy promise that they're going to try to increase the likelihood that premades will face other premades. Don't forget: that's the whole reason why we have the MMR in the first place, and it clearly didn't solve the issue. I (and many others like me) don't want to play against premades PERIOD. Many of us want separate queues, not just a vague promise of less chance of fighting premades.
I do a ton of BGs and really don't see some of the points you are raising. Thus your subject is somewhat bait, as its your view not 'ours'
1. Yes they are listening, check the patch notes
2. Unsure what ZOS can do. Personally don't feel this, i did pre Summerset, but now pop is popping
3. Again, preSS yes, not any more weekday evenings or weekend. I'm Xbox EU when do you play / context
4. Not an issue. Every class has things to deal with / counter. They all have pros and cons. I.e. Pets are ok for me, i hate wings spam.
5. Not seen these personally, bar the ball once. But agree bugs need fixing.
Personally played a ton of BG's in 2017, and started again regular of late and feel they in a better place than most of 2018. Perhaps my MMR finally dropped lol or its when i play / platform, but i don't feel the pain you do
What annoys me - influx of snipe stickers and tether tanks, drawing out games.
PhoenixGrey wrote: »New patch. Same old ***
More on the pet targeting issue--I've recently run into a number of sorcs just in the past week or so who have been specifically using their atronarch to make themselves difficult to target. They cast it, and then run through/inside of the atronarch so that you can't target them 100% of the time. It seems to be catching on, and there are a whole lot of sorcs out there. It isn't just magsorcs either
We really need some kind of option to completely disable targeting enemy pets in BGs. The targeting issues I've heard tanks in my raid group complain about for a long time are becoming more and more apparent. Soft targeting in ESO seems to greatly prioritize what's closest to you, rather than what you have tab targeted + what your crosshair is on. Even if a player is like 3-5m to the side of their pet(s), you will still end up crit charging or pulling the pet instead of the player if the pet is closer to you.
PhoenixGrey wrote: »New patch. Same old ***
Premades still stomping pugs, despite ZOS’s statement that they tweaked BGs to make it more likely that premades would face other premades? Colour me surprised!
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how removing MMR altogether will solve the premade v. random issue...or any of the issues listed here maybe except for #2.
Oh I completely agree with you on all of those points. I was just responding to the post above saying removing MMR altogether will fix the problems w/ BGs, an argument I see pretty often in this corner of the forums. I'd love to someone elaborate on that argument cuz I don't get it.
Meanwhile, ZOS is probably completely unaware that this discussion is even happening and spending all of their BG-related manpower/resources on creating a new map as we speak so.... 🙃
... because it really doesn't seem that way, most of the time. In case the devs are listening or are open to listening (perhaps @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can confirm?), here's a list of some of the worst long-standing issues in BGs. I encourage anyone who's reading to add anything I may have missed.
1. Premades vs. PUGs:
This is probably the biggest issue at the moment: strong premade groups (usually optimized for as much cheese as possible) utterly destroying otherwise good PVPers who were grouped together randomly. There is an overwhelming amount of support (both in these forums, and in game) for separating the queues for premades and PUGs. I don't think I've seen a single ZOS employee even acknowledge community thoughts on this front. Separating the queues will make BGs more enjoyable for everyone (except, I guess, for those few toxic individuals who get their jollies from dominating in PVP with little to no challenge). I'm seeing increasing numbers of players simply rage-quitting when they find themselves up against the exact same overpowered premades over and over again. Heck, even I did that for the first time today (and I hate it when people rage quit), because I simply wasn't going to be ego fodder for yet another packleader WW premade. In my experience, BGs are more fun, and more balanced, when everyone is queued solo. Premades who want a challenge would be better served by being able to queue against other organized/optimized teams.
2. Lack of Player Variety:
Thanks to the MMR system and what I have to assume is a relatively smallish player pool at certain ranks, many of us end up playing the same people over and over (and over, and over...) again. I usually recognize at least half (if not more) of the names on the list when I play. I know what builds people are running before the match even starts, because I've played against them all so many times. There are certain players who are starting to feel like dungeon bosses: utterly predictable and boring. One of the reasons why I PVP is for the variety and randomness. When things are always changing, they're always interesting. When you know what your enemy is going to do before they even do it...where's the fun in that? I want to play against different people, and the only way I can do that is by rolling alts -- which is tedious. In no other PVP game do I have this problem.
3. Long Queue Times:
Also thanks to the MMR system, many of us are stuck with long wait times, particularly during prime time hours. On my main, I'm usually facing a wait of 10+ minutes per match. At certain times of the day, I get instant queues. but that's mostly because I'm being pulled in near the end of a match to replace someone who rage-quit thanks to a toxic premade. When playing on alts, the queue time is always instant or close to instant; this leads me to believe that it is NOT a player population issue, but rather an MMR issue.
4. Pet Stacking/Pet Targeting:
This is partly related to my first point, but I'm mentioning it separately because it's significant enough of an issue to warrant its own discussion. Pet stacking in BG maps, which are relatively small areas, highlights glaring issues with pet targeting in PVP environments. Premades that are built to maximize the number of pets around them essentially gain free damage mitigation against single target attacks. If the group is skilled at kiting, they can keep their pets in front of them at all times, making themselves virtually untargetable. AOEs are a potential solution, but many burst rotations in PVP rely on single target abilities. I've lost track now of the sheer number of WW direwolves or scamps who have eaten my incaps or my frags in BGs... It's frustrating trying to target players through that many pets, and it creates a chaotic, zerg-like atmosphere (especially if each team features multiple pet builds) in a small area that is supposed to be dedicated to small-scale PVP.
5. Bugs, Exploits, and Tigers, Oh My:
Players are STILL able to pick up the chaosball a fraction of a second before they die and respawn at their base holding the ball, where they are free to remain and rack up points until the end of the match (these players also don't get banned when they're reported). Players are STILL able to sit in water with the chaosball and completely protect themselves from melee attacks (also without getting banned when they're reported). People STILL get stuck in that freaking staircase (anyone who's played a lot knows exactly which staircase I'm referring to). Matches STILL fail to start, stuck in a perpetual "Waiting for Players" limbo until everyone leaves, incurring deserter penalties in the process.
TLDR: BGs were a breath of fresh air when they first came out, but several things need to change/be fixed to keep them enjoyable for everyone (not just the premades and the exploiters).
... because it really doesn't seem that way, most of the time. In case the devs are listening or are open to listening (perhaps @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can confirm?), here's a list of some of the worst long-standing issues in BGs. I encourage anyone who's reading to add anything I may have missed.
1. Premades vs. PUGs:
This is probably the biggest issue at the moment: strong premade groups (usually optimized for as much cheese as possible) utterly destroying otherwise good PVPers who were grouped together randomly. There is an overwhelming amount of support (both in these forums, and in game) for separating the queues for premades and PUGs. I don't think I've seen a single ZOS employee even acknowledge community thoughts on this front. Separating the queues will make BGs more enjoyable for everyone (except, I guess, for those few toxic individuals who get their jollies from dominating in PVP with little to no challenge). I'm seeing increasing numbers of players simply rage-quitting when they find themselves up against the exact same overpowered premades over and over again. Heck, even I did that for the first time today (and I hate it when people rage quit), because I simply wasn't going to be ego fodder for yet another packleader WW premade. In my experience, BGs are more fun, and more balanced, when everyone is queued solo. Premades who want a challenge would be better served by being able to queue against other organized/optimized teams.
2. Lack of Player Variety:
Thanks to the MMR system and what I have to assume is a relatively smallish player pool at certain ranks, many of us end up playing the same people over and over (and over, and over...) again. I usually recognize at least half (if not more) of the names on the list when I play. I know what builds people are running before the match even starts, because I've played against them all so many times. There are certain players who are starting to feel like dungeon bosses: utterly predictable and boring. One of the reasons why I PVP is for the variety and randomness. When things are always changing, they're always interesting. When you know what your enemy is going to do before they even do it...where's the fun in that? I want to play against different people, and the only way I can do that is by rolling alts -- which is tedious. In no other PVP game do I have this problem.
3. Long Queue Times:
Also thanks to the MMR system, many of us are stuck with long wait times, particularly during prime time hours. On my main, I'm usually facing a wait of 10+ minutes per match. At certain times of the day, I get instant queues. but that's mostly because I'm being pulled in near the end of a match to replace someone who rage-quit thanks to a toxic premade. When playing on alts, the queue time is always instant or close to instant; this leads me to believe that it is NOT a player population issue, but rather an MMR issue.
4. Pet Stacking/Pet Targeting:
This is partly related to my first point, but I'm mentioning it separately because it's significant enough of an issue to warrant its own discussion. Pet stacking in BG maps, which are relatively small areas, highlights glaring issues with pet targeting in PVP environments. Premades that are built to maximize the number of pets around them essentially gain free damage mitigation against single target attacks. If the group is skilled at kiting, they can keep their pets in front of them at all times, making themselves virtually untargetable. AOEs are a potential solution, but many burst rotations in PVP rely on single target abilities. I've lost track now of the sheer number of WW direwolves or scamps who have eaten my incaps or my frags in BGs... It's frustrating trying to target players through that many pets, and it creates a chaotic, zerg-like atmosphere (especially if each team features multiple pet builds) in a small area that is supposed to be dedicated to small-scale PVP.
5. Bugs, Exploits, and Tigers, Oh My:
Players are STILL able to pick up the chaosball a fraction of a second before they die and respawn at their base holding the ball, where they are free to remain and rack up points until the end of the match (these players also don't get banned when they're reported). Players are STILL able to sit in water with the chaosball and completely protect themselves from melee attacks (also without getting banned when they're reported). People STILL get stuck in that freaking staircase (anyone who's played a lot knows exactly which staircase I'm referring to). Matches STILL fail to start, stuck in a perpetual "Waiting for Players" limbo until everyone leaves, incurring deserter penalties in the process.
TLDR: BGs were a breath of fresh air when they first came out, but several things need to change/be fixed to keep them enjoyable for everyone (not just the premades and the exploiters).
BGs is just a cesspool full of cheese. Best premade I've seen so far was 4 Wardens stacking Permafrost and Ice staves. Ults and sets carry groups extremely hard.
ZOS does play a lot of BGs. Gilliam was queueing as recently as last night, and we saw the dev squad PvP in a bg on eso live just a few weeks ago.
The new MMR system hasn’t been out long enough for us to draw conclusions about it but I have noticed more variability in my matches / opponents. It seems less likely that I keep fighting with and against the same 11 people than it did last patch. Still too early to tell though.
I’d love a ranked (skill based) premade queue to be separate from solo queue.
ZOS does play a lot of BGs. Gilliam was queueing as recently as last night, and we saw the dev squad PvP in a bg on eso live just a few weeks ago.
The new MMR system hasn’t been out long enough for us to draw conclusions about it but I have noticed more variability in my matches / opponents. It seems less likely that I keep fighting with and against the same 11 people than it did last patch. Still too early to tell though.
I’d love a ranked (skill based) premade queue to be separate from solo queue.
It’s one thing to say they play Bg’s but play a lot I don’t see it. There’s just too many extremely outstanding issues in the PVP realm for me/us (15 players in my guild) to believe they play a lot. Not specifically BGs but PvP in general.
They definitely don’t play on console
They obviously don’t play MNB that uses Shadow Image
They must not stay around keeps (load screens on every flip and each time a keep upgrades)
They definitely don’t run enchants because they still lag your whole game out when they run out
They must not run oil( the amount of broken oil that don’t work for me is now in the 100’s)
They must not get stunned because break free has been broken for years
They must never get sniped because we all know that’s extremely broken
They probably don’t run wings because you can still get sniped with them up
And they definitely don’t give a damn about the PvP community. At least till recently. 2 years without almost any update.
No communication regarding performance update they rolled back during CwC load screen fiasco
No communication about keep jumpers (ambush on a fried to steal scrolls)
No communication regarding new scoring in PvP. 25k point differences on the campaign scores shouldn’t be a thing.
We ask consistently for an update or even just a notice that they are looking into these. This is a tiny list compared to the actual issues we would like issues from.
Like why on earth do dawn breakers disappear. You even made a detailed video (I’m pretty sure it was you)about what is going on and I haven’t heard anything since
I posted about shadow image the moment it was an issue. I bumped it almost everyday for 3 months and never did get a response. Until a Class Rep mention it in the notes.
So forgive me for being negative but I don’t see how they could play/promote this if they actually played. I would personally be ashamed and probably not say anything ever( like they do now).
When I can see the same people in PvP everyday to the point that I know they switched their gear there’s a problem with population. Which is caused by them not caring for too long. Hopefully the new combat Dev lead makes a huge difference and I’ll stick around to find out. But ZOS doesn’t have a great track record.
More on the pet targeting issue--I've recently run into a number of sorcs just in the past week or so who have been specifically using their atronarch to make themselves difficult to target. They cast it, and then run through/inside of the atronarch so that you can't target them 100% of the time. It seems to be catching on, and there are a whole lot of sorcs out there. It isn't just magsorcs either
We really need some kind of option to completely disable targeting enemy pets in BGs. The targeting issues I've heard tanks in my raid group complain about for a long time are becoming more and more apparent. Soft targeting in ESO seems to greatly prioritize what's closest to you, rather than what you have tab targeted + what your crosshair is on. Even if a player is like 3-5m to the side of their pet(s), you will still end up crit charging or pulling the pet instead of the player if the pet is closer to you.
Meh, agree with some of the points and disagree with some others. I’ve seen the OP in maybe 5 or so BGs so it should be the sameish environment.
Pet sorcs are annoying but not that powerful. They’re more an annoyance for ranged then overpowered.
Targeting is off. I can confirm that one.
Queue times can be around 5 minutes depending on the time of day.
I do see the same names a lot.
I sometimes see premades, I’ve only seen one really powerful one in the early morning. Someone said they were Japanese. Other than that they do a little better than pugs, but except for the one group they weren’t people playing specs so they’d synergize with each other. Just guildies so didn’t run off or act dumb in the BG.
Soft targeting doesn't prioritise what's closest to you, it just flat out doesn't work when it decides to screw you.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprAGEEfOPk
Soft targeting doesn't prioritise what's closest to you, it just flat out doesn't work when it decides to screw you.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprAGEEfOPk
Watching that caused physical pain, LOL. I’ve had many ults eaten by pets before, but that... that’s a whole new level of aggravating.