Why are they nerfing dungeons?
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MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭No, insane power creep allowed them to burn things down and avoid mechanics.
Of ocurse, 99,9% od playerbase dont have access (and dont care) about getting on that power creep train.0 -
Waseem✭✭✭✭✭
✭when experienced players no longer mind playing and teach pugs. the nerfs will stop.5 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭wishlist14 wrote: »The average gamer is not leet. Many people try their hardest and cannot achieve hm vet dlc dungeons or vet trials. It is not from lack of tryimg or because they suck or dont understand player mechanics. Latency plays a huge part in dps numbers and fight mechanics. Then there are those players that just cant find a raiding spot in a good, patient guild that is willing to train them. Or they try pugging, have a horrenduous experience or two and blame themselves...lose confidence.
I dont mind hard content being nerfed because I think of it this way. The leet players or above average players will beat the content before it gets nerfed anyways so theres their challenge. They dont miss out. All other players w ill finally get a chance to complete some of those achieves they've been dreaming of completing some day. So its win win for all eso,players not just the minority.
It's funny because ive read some angry comments about how some players feel entitled to get all achievements...that's so rich coming from players that have those achievements already and are just salty that god forbid some scrub that can only ever pull 30k dps might get a chance to those chieves too. 😆😆😆😘😘😘😘🙃🙃🙃🙃😜😜😜😩😂😂😂😃😃😃
I agree with what you're saying, but I still think it would make more sense to have 3 levels.
The last level being something no one feels they have to do, for any reason; but, is just there for people who like to do hard content.
I "real raided" in WoW, so I'm sure it's all perfectly possible, given enough dedication and a reliable internet connection (which I don't have, at the moment); but, the learning curve is just way too steep for most PUG groups.
Some people in them just won't have the potential to do them, for whatever reason.
If those people are then attempting to rely on one, or two, other people to try to do it - at least one of whom may not have done it before - then, of course, most attempts will fail.
Especially if the one person who actually has some idea of what is going on, is telling people to "Bash"; not Interrupt.
...and/or if it's on the EU server, where English isn't a first language for most people.
I know the overland bosses are (ridiculously) even called different things, in different languages, so even trying to convey which boss you are referring to can be hard.
I assume that may well be the case in dungeons, too?
I just gave up the whole thing, after a couple of tries, in PUGs.
Can't be bothered and don't feel I need to prove anything, here.
I know that if I rolled an optimal race/class combo, dutifully built my char into a boring cookie cutter build, joined an English speaking guild that would teach me what to do, in English (and know what to do themselves) and if the Internet Gods happened to be on my side, at the time, that I could probably do them all without too many problems.
But, why bother, when it wouldn't be any fun?
Far easier and more fun to just go and do something else, instead.2 -
supaskrub✭✭✭✭✭Probably because by the end of this year there will be 14 DLC dungeons in the dungeon rotation, there’s enough people complaining now about the fact they avoid dungeon finder because of DLC dungeons, so the more of them they dumb down to easy mode learns the chances of pug failure.1 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭when experienced players no longer mind playing and teach pugs. the nerfs will stop.
DLC duneons are already dead. It doesnt matter what "experienced players" do or dont do. Or whether there are some cosmetic nerfs here and there.
It is similar to "VET leves/areas" from launch, and only way to resuscitate them is to do as drastic change as they did back then to save the game (to save DLC dungeons in this case)
Its about time that ZOS reacts when people are unsubbing just to avoid DLC dungeons.Edited by MikaHR on March 6, 2019 10:25AM4 -
Bevik✭✭✭✭Probably because by the end of this year there will be 14 DLC dungeons in the dungeon rotation, there’s enough people complaining now about the fact they avoid dungeon finder because of DLC dungeons, so the more of them they dumb down to easy mode learns the chances of pug failure.
Probably nerf is ZOS solution for that what you are saying. Actually we asked for an option to turn off the DLC dungeons for randoms because we can do non-DLC dungeons in 10 mins and some DLC dungeons last like 30 mins because they are designed like that with all the timed mechanics and trash mobs. It is still a half solution like a band aid. People still going to leave DLC dungeons the moment they see them just because they are way too long for a normal or veteran run.0 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Considering I've never done most of them, having only done Fungal Grotto and one or two others, I'm pleased to see them easing up on them a bit. They need to be accessible to everyone, even less capable players and characters.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.4 -
GarnetFire17✭✭✭✭The nerfs are because Chief- whats-her-face is getting too may dungeons and there are more on the way and some need to move down the chain for the sake of the pledge rotation.1
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Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Very good. Maybe this will get more players involved. The small minority of players who run more difficult content have a blind spot for the average ESO player. I do not. I'm married to one, and have friends who also fall into the casual category. The average player does not want to be challenged beyond their limits, and they don't want to make this game a life goal. Accessibility matters, and this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. Hard mode isn't being nerfed, and there's no need to be snide about the skill level of players who just want to have fun. Sad, really, that any of that even needs to be said.
Accessibility was always there. It was called normal mode. Vet was supposed to be for those looking for a challenge.
True. ZoS nerfing dungeons is like you getting a participation trophy... Useless, and rewards laziness...
If you want a real trophy, go win some real trophies...in real world.
Someone playing computer games talking about "participation trophies", "uselessness" and "laziness"....
Whats the point of achievements then? Why people play this kind of games? I do it for the achievement, and when that achievement lose value, i feel bad because i tried so hard to earn that achievement.
I wanted to show the "nerfing" example of that in real life by talking about participation trophies. This game already has that, you get free stuff just by porting in anyway...
Most people play for fun.
Most people don't want everything to be too easy; but, they don't want to feel forced to do hard content.
Some of those people want to be able to choose to do it.
Then there's you - the highly verbal minority - who wants to force everyone else to do what you want to do.
Even though that means killing the games you play.
Wildstar being the latest casualty.4 -
Malprave✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Very good. Maybe this will get more players involved. The small minority of players who run more difficult content have a blind spot for the average ESO player. I do not. I'm married to one, and have friends who also fall into the casual category. The average player does not want to be challenged beyond their limits, and they don't want to make this game a life goal. Accessibility matters, and this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. Hard mode isn't being nerfed, and there's no need to be snide about the skill level of players who just want to have fun. Sad, really, that any of that even needs to be said.
Accessibility was always there. It was called normal mode. Vet was supposed to be for those looking for a challenge.
True. ZoS nerfing dungeons is like you getting a participation trophy... Useless, and rewards laziness...
If you want a real trophy, go win some real trophies...in real world.
Someone playing computer games talking about "participation trophies", "uselessness" and "laziness"....
Whats the point of achievements then? Why people play this kind of games? I do it for the achievement, and when that achievement lose value, i feel bad because i tried so hard to earn that achievement.
I wanted to show the "nerfing" example of that in real life by talking about participation trophies. This game already has that, you get free stuff just by porting in anyway...
Most people play for fun.
Most people don't want everything to be too easy; but, they don't want to feel forced to do hard content.
Some of those people want to be able to choose to do it.
Then there's you - the highly verbal minority - who wants to force everyone else to do what you want to do.
Even though that means killing the games you play.
Wildstar being the latest casualty.
IMO what’s actually happening here is the majority is forcing the minority to accept a diluted game experience. The nerfing of the dlc dungeons effectively limits the replay value for that minority.
2 -
DLM✭✭✭✭✭Even though that means killing the games you play.
Wildstar being the latest casualty.
Please, there is nothing to do with Wildstar. Wildstar's failure was thinking that people wanted raids a la vanilla WoW (Carbine Studios had been created by former devs of WoW) and not realizing that times had changed. These kids running raids back then along with their dailies and all associated grind were now young adults that no longer had time for this sort of commitment and it had little appeal to younger folks. On top of that MMORPG has been a dieing genre for the last few decade or so.
We are not even talking about raids but dungeons and ESO's dungeons are far less punishing than Wildstar's raids (the main mechanic was telegraphed AOE with complex patterns and movements that require to basically learn a choregraphy). I am sorry to say that our vet DLC mechanics are basic gameplay: interrupting, blocking, rolling out/moving out of AOE, being aware of your surroundings (the boss has a flashy colored icon over his head, run to the associated colored circle, that can't be hard?) or what the boss/friendly NPC says ("Don't move a muscle!"), etc.
Typos and suchEdited by DLM on March 6, 2019 11:56AM1 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭That happens when majority keeps the lights on.
Wildstar was a game made specifically for that "minority" and died very fast. Someone has to pay people working on the game and that minority is PROVEN incapable of sustaining even smaller scale MMO like Wildstar.
Its astounding how many people would rather see game die (like Wildstar and Rift) than change (but understandable since vast majority of players dont visit forums and there is immense bias towards very vocal minority that tends to kill games because they have delusions of grandeur and where devs choose to fall into a trap of listening to "its a MMO" or "its a MMO and that means JOB ONLINE" wow kiddies).Edited by MikaHR on March 6, 2019 11:58AM4 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭On top of that MMORPG has been a dieing genre for the last few decade or so.
And that is because everyone adhered to be wow with new skin until games like GW2 and ESO appeared.
GW2 was doing great until devs decided to introduce new tier of gear and raids because "Its a MMO" wow kiddies demanded it....and are now facing mass layoffs.
ESO had to rework the whole base game to make it more ES like and less wow like and the game thrived after that.
And this is what SWTORs game director for 11 years James Ohlen had to say about SWTOR (SWTOR is on its last legs despite even the movies and everything, if it wasnt SW IP it would have been shut down long time ago):
"With Star Wars: The Old Republic I wish that I pushed a little bit more toward making it kind of Knights of The Republic online rather than “Star Wars World of Warcraft.”"
Well, at least he admitted his mistake, its quite telling coming from him, you can search for his lectures on MMO design and how "you have to be liek WoW or else" at around SWTORs launch.
And dead games liek Wldstar/Rift that advertised being "proper WoW" after "WoW has been watered down so much" speak for themselves...well their legacy, games are dead.
And now, these same wow kiddies are here, demanding from devs to repeat SAME mistakes all those dead MMOs did again...constantly yelling same empty worn out "its a MMO" phrase that killed so many games already.Edited by MikaHR on March 6, 2019 12:28PM6 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Nah, it’s kinda the opposite. Some forumgoer on here basically told me to play the minority’s way or don’t play them at all cause I’d be “a burden to my group” for trying dungeons for the first time. They also said something along the lines of “thanks for not queuing”.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Very good. Maybe this will get more players involved. The small minority of players who run more difficult content have a blind spot for the average ESO player. I do not. I'm married to one, and have friends who also fall into the casual category. The average player does not want to be challenged beyond their limits, and they don't want to make this game a life goal. Accessibility matters, and this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. Hard mode isn't being nerfed, and there's no need to be snide about the skill level of players who just want to have fun. Sad, really, that any of that even needs to be said.
Accessibility was always there. It was called normal mode. Vet was supposed to be for those looking for a challenge.
True. ZoS nerfing dungeons is like you getting a participation trophy... Useless, and rewards laziness...
If you want a real trophy, go win some real trophies...in real world.
Someone playing computer games talking about "participation trophies", "uselessness" and "laziness"....
Whats the point of achievements then? Why people play this kind of games? I do it for the achievement, and when that achievement lose value, i feel bad because i tried so hard to earn that achievement.
I wanted to show the "nerfing" example of that in real life by talking about participation trophies. This game already has that, you get free stuff just by porting in anyway...
Most people play for fun.
Most people don't want everything to be too easy; but, they don't want to feel forced to do hard content.
Some of those people want to be able to choose to do it.
Then there's you - the highly verbal minority - who wants to force everyone else to do what you want to do.
Even though that means killing the games you play.
Wildstar being the latest casualty.
IMO what’s actually happening here is the majority is forcing the minority to accept a diluted game experience. The nerfing of the dlc dungeons effectively limits the replay value for that minority.1 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Catering and listening to that tiny vocal minority is what is killing MMOs....and if it continues is what will kill the whole genre.
The most ironic thing is that this same tiny vocal minority would rather see whole genre driven into the ground (and keep yelling "Its a MMO" on the way down) and dead instead adapting to survive....thats how twisted/toxic they are.
And in extension to that, they would rather se NO ONE playing DLC dungeons (well pretty much the state we have now) and watch them rot instead of those being adapted to something most of playerbase can enjoy. Is that really the kind of people devs should listen and cater to? Yeah....no, devs need to wake up before its too late.Edited by MikaHR on March 6, 2019 12:44PM5 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I always questioned why the mid boss was harder than the final of each dungeon..
But i welcome these nerfs mainly because i have no friends and guildseven the we're so friggan active and helpful totting guilds are useless so that just leaves pugs and most are terrible so large portion of the player base gets walled out of the content because they need 3 others who are capable thats like finding a unicorn..3 -
wnights✭✭✭The thing is, creating different levels of dungeons won't work, because:
players: but we want to complete vet content to get the skins / etc. too!
players who put effort into vet content: you just need to practice and learn the mechanics
players: but it's a game! Games should be fun and not require any effort. I don't have time for mechanics
Zos: fine we'll make it easier
No matter how many levels there are higher levels will always bring some sort of reward that casual players would also want to get but wouldn't be willing to out effort in it.
Of course I am generilizing as sometimes people can't do hard content for other reasons than lazinessKeirah Belmore - Dark elf Magblade2 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Catering and listening to that tiny vocal minority is what is killing MMOs....and if it continues is what will kill the whole genre.
The most ironic thing is that this same tiny vocal minority would rather see whole genre driven into the ground (and keep yelling "Its a MMO" on the way down) and dead instead adapting to survive....thats how twisted/toxic they are.
And in extension to that, they would rather se NO ONE playing DLC dungeons (well pretty much the state we have now) and watch them rot instead of those being adapted to something most of playerbase can enjoy. Is that really the kind of people devs should listen and cater to? Yeah....no, devs need to wake up before its too late.
If you ask me, the reason "nobody" plays DLC dungeons is because ZOS has no spine. They folded time and time again. They nerfed Doshia and delve bosses. They nerfed overland enemies. They nerfed everything with One Tamriel and battle leveling. They nerfed everything again with their not-a-vertical-progression-system champion points vertical progression system. They nerfed vet dungeons and called them "normal mode", now they're going in again and nerfing vet dungeons again.
You know what they didn't do? They didn't have an actual plan to stick with. They didn't say to the player base "we're introducing veteran dungeons and we mean them to be harder". They didn't provide a way for less social players to find guilds easily other than spamming zone chat. They didn't explore other possibilities for group formation such as player-created lobbies. They are only now, 5 years and several nerfs later, reworking the tutorial to explain to people how to do damage.
You don't see FromSoftware nerfing Dark Souls because players find it challenging, do you? They made the games hard, and that's what players look for in them. By continually nerfing ESO, ZOS are telling players they can come looking for an easy game. I've already left for 2 years and I'm quickly losing steam again. ESO seems to be turning into mannequins online and not much else. If that's what the majority want, there's not much I can do about it, but that's not the game I used to play at launch, and I suspect it's not a game I want to play much.3 -
LadySinflower✭✭✭✭✭At the risk of p*ss*ng some people off let me give a point of view from the other side of the issue. I am a CP380 magblade and I guess I'm a DPS even though I haven't built my character for anything specific to dungeons. I had no clue when I started the game and she (my toon) is a Nord. I am not an elite anything and doubt I will ever be. I've never been in any of the dungeons you're talking about even on easy mode. The reason is because the rare times I do try to group for a dungeon there's always some jerk worried about my low CP level or complaining when I don't immediately know mechanics (despite never having been in the place before). I'm not looking for a freebie and it would be no fun if you could one-shot the boss and be done. But I do get frustrated and give up if after 100+ tries at something it is still overwhelming despite my best efforts to understand how to beat the mechanics. Maybe I suck at it, and I'm sure you're a better player than me, but I'd be willing to guess that there are more who suck than those who don't. Some people will try 3-4 times and give up if they think the difficulty is too insane. People in general are not patient and many (if not most) are looking for instant gratification even in a known difficult task in a video game. I bet there are more of me (who falls into neither category), the easy-giver-uppers, and the IG seekers in the game than there are the "I beat so-and-so on vet mode at level 15 with mismatch gear and no healer or tank in the group what is wrong with you" people.
ZoS can't make money if they only cater to a small percentage of the community. If they make content hard enough for only the 1% of the 1% and it drives everybody else away, nobody else gets to see the gear or other rewards they worked so hard to build into the game. And believe me, every dev who designed one of those things is more than eager to see their creation being used and enjoyed by the player base. If only a select few can earn any rewards and the other 99.9% cannot, people will start to complain. There are those who complain in forums or feedback, and there are those who just cancel all subscriptions and/or stop playing. If ZoS sees a lot of that happening they will attempt to study the problem. Whether you agree that they are right or wrong they will make decisions based on that research.
Then they start to make changes that they hope will keep them from losing more players. And there will be a few 0.1%ers who will rage quit because they are making it "too easy." If you're in ZoS's shoes, who can your bottom line better afford to lose? 1000 elitists or 1,000,000 people who quit because they thought it was too difficult? You know the complaints. "No chance to earn rewards." "Everything out of reach." "I don't have time to gain the skill levels required." "I don't want to grind. I want to have fun." "I want to see something right away for my efforts." "I'm paying money. Don't I have that right?" "I spent an hour in one room and still didn't beat it! I don't have enough playing time available to spend a whole hour in one room!"
ZoS doesn't want to lose anybody. They want everybody's money. When given the choice of maybe driving away a tiny percentage of players to attract and keep a much larger majority, what side do you think will win? The people sitting in the seats doing the work do care, but they don't make the big decisions. Money makes the big decisions. So they nerf and tweak and make people angry. It's just gonna happen. Not everybody is great at these games, but they are mass-marketed to everybody. We don't get a choice of who picks up the game, how much effort they will put into it, or how much skill they will develop. But we do have to deal with the fallout when they *** enough to get the company to make changes (which will then result in more bitching but that's a rant for another day).
TL;DR ZoS makes these decisions based on the majority of the player base (and their money), who are probably not as good a player as you are.Edited by LadySinflower on March 6, 2019 2:30PM10 -
MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭So TL;DR: no one wants to play DLC dungeons because they nerfed them too much. Right.
They had a plan at launch...in fact they were saying all those things at launch.... and then the game died and they had to rework it to something people actually want to play for console launch and "One Tamriel".
And DLC dungeons are pretty much dead, and DOA. Not a very savvy business wasting $$ and resources on dead content so they have to rework them to something people actually want to play (and pay) for.
You dont see From Software nerfing Dark Souls because its a one off sale, they moved on from working on the game long time ago and dont ask continuous $$ for playing it, its all the same to them whether someone plays it for 1 minute or 1 year, they got your $$ and moved on and dont care beyond that.
Shame on you ZOS for keeping the game alive, you should have catererd to daemonios and the likes and let it die!!!!!! GROW SOME SPINE ZOS!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by MikaHR on March 6, 2019 2:27PM0 -
CGPsaint✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The squeaky wheel gets the grease. People who can't complete content, would rather head to the forums and *** about how hard it is, instead of learning the mechanics and working towards the completion. My suggestion to those folks is put on your big boy/girl pants, grab some repair kits, and go earn it.Edited by CGPsaint on March 6, 2019 2:21PM6 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That would require work and commitment.The squeaky wheel gets the grease. People who can't complete content, would rather head to the forums and *** about how hard it is, instead of learning the mechanics and working towards the completion. My suggestion to those folks is put on your big boy/girl pants, grab some repair kits, and go earn it.1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So TL;DR: no one wants to play DLC dungeons because they nerfed them too much. Right.
They had a plan at launch...in fact they were saying all those things at launch.... and then the game died and they had to rework it to something people actually want to play for console launch and "One Tamriel".
And DLC dungeons are pretty much dead, and DOA. Not a very savvy business wasting $$ and resources on dead content so they have to rework them to something people actually want to play (and pay) for.
You dont see From Software nerfing Dark Souls because its a one off sale, they moved on from working on the game long time ago and dont ask continuous $$ for playing it, its all the same to them whether someone plays it for 1 minute or 1 year, they got your $$ and moved on and dont care beyond that.
Shame on you ZOS for keeping the game alive, you should have catererd to daemonios and the likes and let it die!!!!!! GROW SOME SPINE ZOS!!!!!!!!!!!
That is not what I said, and if that is what you took from my post you need to work on your reading comprehension. Going by what you say, it would seem ZOS took the only path available. That was not the case. ZOS had options. Gently nudge people towards guilds so people could help each other learn the ropes, or panic when people complain content is too hard and start making the game more amenable to them. They chose the second option.
One thing I didn't mention and that I feel contributed greatly to the current state of affairs: the community is beyond toxic right now. When ESO launched I decided to try tanking Spindleclutch. I didn't know about taunts, didn't have a one-handed weapon or a shield on me, let alone Puncture. But the group I recruited in zone chat (no group finder then) realized what was going on, one person offered me some random dropped gear, I slotted puncture and we completed the run. Today there would have been drama and name-calling. ZOS should give toxic players a few days' downtime to think about it, yet I see no indication that this is the case (in more serious instances people got banned, only to get unbanned shortly after).
So the actual TL;DR, if you made it this far: ZOS had choices, and they made (IMHO) the wrong ones.2 -
RockoMLife✭✭I dont think this is exactly the point, i mean the dlc content was a little bit challenging, but it wasnt all that to the point that they needed nerfs ( like i was rlly happy when i got my earthgore- it was hard for me, but not impossible).. The point in this nerfs is that not only the dg’s will be more boring, but also it will end dungeon healing.
Yep.. What Zos forget is that by doing this nerf's, u pretty much wipe dungeon healing, with was pretty awesome ... im a main healer player in every game i go and i rlly liked to heal ESO's DG, especially the DLC ones..
i just got back to play this game.. so im starting a new toon.. im doing again all this amazing quests this game has to offer.. will buy the expansion, i will screw around a little with necro class... i will burn my 10k crowns or so that i have it from subscribing eso plus and THEN, i will leave this game for good..
I have being trying to play this game since open beta, but real life always stood in the way.. No more, i will take the little time that i have left and i will play this to end, because there's no doubt on my mind that ESO's day's are number.. When a company starts pulling stuff like this, its pretty much the indication that they are already considering a exit strategy
They are killing one of the best features of this game.. this move wont hold subscribers, it will make then quit .. after ppl have a taste of this new necro class they will start leaving this game.. massively … mark my words … the PVE crowd will suffer heavy losses …
This was a hell of a game.. and i will always consider as one of the best MMO i ever played .. but it’s time to face the reality … this boat is sinking..
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phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭
Bash is actually a keyword used by the game you know.
Not to mention that there are major issues with bash (amongst other things...):
1. The game doesn't teach you how to do it.
2. You can't assign it to a single key (big mistake).
3. If you don't play with a mouse and/or you try to reassign its components to 2 keys, it doesn't seem to work properly.
These kind of fundamental issues need to be sorted out before you can expect PUGs to deal with non-standard mechanics, in dungeons.
1. You have to use bash to get through the tutorial.
2. you can bind bash to a single key.
I looked at keybindings and I didn't see Bash there?
Maybe I missed it - will look again when I can log back on.
...and it's been a while, but I don't think I had to use Bash to get through the tutorial?
Do you mean the new tutorial?
If so, I haven't done that.
It's under combat > interrupt
Oh, so it's just Interrupt?
Why don't people just call it that, then?
for example.Glyph of Bashing - Increase bash damage by X
Glyph of Shielding - Reduce cost of Bash by X and reduce cost of Blocking by Y
I think even the tutorial text refers to interrupting as bash.
There's also a skill called Shield Bash.
I'm not 100% sure, but this might be a colloquialism that transcended slang status.
Regardless tho, even if the game didn't use it as a keyword it'd still be fairly obvious why people call it Bash.
Like do you not pay attention to the animations/actions your character performs?1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I’m sure this is frustrating for well geared, coordinated groups.
Overall, it’s probably a smart tweak on their end.
Making DLC dungeons so hard for new players isn’t all that wise.2 -
What's the fun in completing everything without a challenge?
If you want it easy, go for normal mode...
If it's about 'getting the achievement you don't get', well sorry, but that's part of the game.
I'm playing now char's without spending CP's to have some challenge in this game...3 -
Osteos✭✭✭✭✭
✭ruikkarikun wrote: »We recently removed a handful of unnecessary and off topic comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil, constructive, and free of insults or personal attacks. Thank you for your understanding.
Thank you. Please listen less to 1-3% elitists who has static groups and perfect gear and 24/7 who can close any hard mode.
For the rest, try to close this veteran (not even HM) with dungeon finder or zone seeking. If you don't have static group you will feel how hard it is. I always wonder, just go and try it with pugs, because it's an a majority of the game, and you elitists are more more less.
I'm actually starting to see a pattern here, and it makes me wonder if the difference in group communication opportunities on the different platforms creates a different end game culture. Are you on PC @ruikkarikun ?
On Xbox, when you pug a dungeon, we have the option to use voice comms to communicate with one another (provided they're working that day...it definitely comes with its own challenges), and it not only makes it easier to get through unfamiliar content together, but also facilitates the growth of connections and resultant friendships/partnerships and potential guild invites. There are no "static groups" as you've put it, because we have a very wide and complex social network in place on console, and this network extends across both PvE and PvP, and even intertwines the two. On PC, you're stuck typing everything out, which isn't feasible mid battle. It's actually pretty lonely and isolating playing on PC, and I enjoy the culture there far less because of it.
On Xbox, I'm part of a trader guild, a PvP guild, a social guild that fosters new players and we teach them rotations and level appropriate raid mechanics, a PvE guild with a wide range of players mostly trending toward end game, and a super sweaty end game raid guild. This exposes me (and many others) to a really wide range of people at all levels and ensures the average player doesn't really get pigeon holed into only one portion of the game, unless they actively choose to keep themselves there. There seems to be far less intrinsic separation of skill level on console than on PC.
It can be extremely difficult to get people to communicate in pugs on PC. Most people don't even respond to my Hello! at the start of the dungeon. Occasionally you get a bossy dps or healer that tells everyone what to do even though its already being done but for the most part its silence until things start going wrong.
From my experience guilds are no better. I have joined and left a dozen pve guilds that make all kinds of promises about doing pledges, trials etc but whenever you ask in chat no one ever responds.
There is a severe lack of communication on PC.
DAGGERFALL COVENANTNA PCFormer Vehemence MemberOnistka Valerius <> Artemis Renault <> Gonk gra-Ugrash <> Karietta <> Zercon at-Rusa <> Genevieve Renault <> Ktaka <> Brenlyn Renault2 -
keto3000✭✭✭LadySinflower wrote: »At the risk of p*ss*ng some people off let me give a point of view from the other side of the issue. I am a CP380 magblade and I guess I'm a DPS even though I haven't built my character for anything specific to dungeons. I had no clue when I started the game and she (my toon) is a Nord. I am not an elite anything and doubt I will ever be. I've never been in any of the dungeons you're talking about even on easy mode. The reason is because the rare times I do try to group for a dungeon there's always some jerk worried about my low CP level or complaining when I don't immediately know mechanics (despite never having been in the place before). I'm not looking for a freebie and it would be no fun if you could one-shot the boss and be done. But I do get frustrated and give up if after 100+ tries at something it is still overwhelming despite my best efforts to understand how to beat the mechanics. Maybe I suck at it, and I'm sure you're a better player than me, but I'd be willing to guess that there are more who suck than those who don't. Some people will try 3-4 times and give up if they think the difficulty is too insane. People in general are not patient and many (if not most) are looking for instant gratification even in a known difficult task in a video game. I bet there are more of me (who falls into neither category), the easy-giver-uppers, and the IG seekers in the game than there are the "I beat so-and-so on vet mode at level 15 with mismatch gear and no healer or tank in the group what is wrong with you" people.
ZoS can't make money if they only cater to a small percentage of the community. If they make content hard enough for only the 1% of the 1% and it drives everybody else away, nobody else gets to see the gear or other rewards they worked so hard to build into the game. And believe me, every dev who designed one of those things is more than eager to see their creation being used and enjoyed by the player base. If only a select few can earn any rewards and the other 99.9% cannot, people will start to complain. There are those who complain in forums or feedback, and there are those who just cancel all subscriptions and/or stop playing. If ZoS sees a lot of that happening they will attempt to study the problem. Whether you agree that they are right or wrong they will make decisions based on that research.
Then they start to make changes that they hope will keep them from losing more players. And there will be a few 0.1%ers who will rage quit because they are making it "too easy." If you're in ZoS's shoes, who can your bottom line better afford to lose? 1000 elitists or 1,000,000 people who quit because they thought it was too difficult? You know the complaints. "No chance to earn rewards." "Everything out of reach." "I don't have time to gain the skill levels required." "I don't want to grind. I want to have fun." "I want to see something right away for my efforts." "I'm paying money. Don't I have that right?"
ZoS doesn't want to lose anybody. They want everybody's money. When given the choice of maybe driving away a tiny percentage of players to attract and keep a much larger majority, what side do you think will win? The people sitting in the seats doing the work do care, but they don't make the big decisions. Money makes the big decisions. So they nerf and tweak and make people angry. It's just gonna happen. Not everybody is great at these games, but they are mass-marketed to everybody. We don't get a choice of who picks up the game, how much effort they will put into it, or how much skill they will develop. But we do have to deal with the fallout when they *** enough to get the company to make changes (which will then result in more bitching but that's a rant for another day).
TL;DR ZoS makes these decisions based on the majority of the player base (and their money), who are probably not as good a player as you are.
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This is very well said and does speak to, I think, the broader issue:
Normal dungeon mode mechanics need to be real stepping stones to the vet mode.
If the casual, developing player is to learn enough of the mechanics, skills & situational awareness necessary to step up to the next difficulty level (vet) then the normal mode dungeons need to be re-designed in many cases to provide that.
Right now, it seems the normal mode mechanics are way simpler in difficulty and often very different than those encountered in their vet mode counterparts.
@ZOS_Finn Instead of nerfing the vet mode mechanics, maybe devs should consider revamping normal modes to prevent mechanics from being bypassed by simply dps nuking the bosses too much (fast). This would encourage new/developing players the time/space needed to actually learn the mechanics and playing in a group.
Often, experienced players join group finder for a pug run matched with new/developing players who really want to learn how to improve.. It requires patience rather than raging by the experienced players who choose to simply nuke the bosses, bypassing the mechanics just to get it completed at the expense of the new/developing players ever getting to learn group cohesion, situational awareness and improve their overall skill sets in order to progress to next level content!
Not everyone comes from extensive gaming backgrounds. For many of us (including me) this was/is our first MMO. Some players are used to RPG & MOBA play. They may not be fully comfortable in Team Speak or Discord yet, Helping these newer/developing players to grow and develop into properly skilled endgamers would benefit the whole community & should, IMO, should be a core value of the more veteran MMO players who choose to group and run dungeons, etc with random newer players.
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Running dungeons should NOT be about shaming new/developing players re their skill levels or competency, but rather to coach them "up" --offer to refer them into decent training guilds and/or personally help mentor them along the way. That would be real positive change from what many new players experience right now. There are many vet players who do this now, but there's a very high proportion of toxic experienced players who go negative real fast and the only reason to group is to get their completion....so no one really learns.
@ZOS_Finn ZOS can help foster this interactive mentoring, imo, by making the Normal modes be like training ground for the next level fo that dungeon e.g WGT, keep an easier, but similar pinion mechanic in the normal version so players can get good at it before progressing to vet mode, etc.
ZOS and the veteran/experienced player base should work hard to create/promote content, events & grouping experiences so that new/developing players can learn and develop the necessary skill sets, situational awareness and proper mechanics to
A. have a path of positive progression in the game's content
B. learn how to get good at both solo & team oriented game activity and
C. really enjoy the experience along the way!
Edited by keto3000 on March 7, 2019 1:38AM“The point of power is always in the present moment.”
― Louise L. Hay4