MagDKs & Nightblades received a damage boost in Wrathstone — [ Vulnerability calculation changes ]

Danksta · March 2019

anatole1234 wrote: »

NB do t have access to Minor vulnerability . Reason they hit harder is cause they ru. shadow mundie which got buffed by 5% and the other 10% from being khajit

Everyone has access to minor vulnerability via shock enchant.

alexj4596b14_ESO · March 2019

I don't mind the new damage, I just wish we would have known about it ahead of time. PvP needs more damage anyway cuz everything is so Tanky.

TheYKcid · March 2019

MalagenR wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Credits to @Reorx_Holybeard for discovering this change and sharing their findings with me. They also discuss some weird bugs that can temporarily disrupt the order of calculations in this earlier post.

You are awesome, thanks for sharing. How is the 10% bonus from Off Balance in CP's effected by this?

Ought to be unaffected, since the 10% bonus damage comes from Exploiter, a buff on the attacker. The offbalance debuff itself doesn't directly affect incoming damage.

But valid concern, I'll test it when I have time (and a willing volunteer online)!

TheYKcid · March 2019

@MalagenR Just tested, Exploiter is an additive 10% bonus damage to the attacker. So it isn't affected by this new mechanic.

Lord-Otto · March 2019

I think at this point, it's a subconscious reflex of ZOS to buff Nightblades every patch...
x'D
Interesting find, YKcid!

Olupajmibanan · March 2019

That explains Flame Lashes for 7k I've been doing lately

And I don't even slot Engulfing Flames. Must have hit a stage 4 Vampire.

So the conclusion is: Vampire is a big no in PvP?

Cathexis · March 2019

Subversive buff to the two most obviously overpowered classes?

Shocked? Nawp.

Splattercat_83 · March 2019

They don't need to screw with soul harvest and incap because that would severly hit pve dps for nightblades in PVE. Thats one of the class defining abilities. They need to fix their damage mitigation

kojou · March 2019

Buff to IA and AS Destro Staff...

MalagenR · March 2019

IA?

GeneralSezme · March 2019

As if Nb’s wern’t broken enough

Iskiab · March 2019

Infallible mage. People call it IA.

I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

PvP doesn’t have that limitation so it’s ultimately a buff to the lightning status effect and sorcs. I’ve noticed they have more burst these days and thought it was the change to their class in the last patch, it’s probably a bit of both.

I’ll have to try fire front and lightning back bar as a magblade. Lightning blockade switching to fire front for big vampire damage.

Flips · March 2019

So should I change to shock or fire enchant s on all types of weapons in pvp?

TheYKcid · March 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

@Iskiab Just to clarify—this change does not benefit PvE damage output at all, because NPCs don't have %-based mitigation, AFAIK (but once again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Therefore, taking minor vuln as an example, whether you use the old or new formula makes no difference:

1.00 * 1.08 = 1.08
1.00 + 0.08 = 1.08

Vulnerabilities have only been buffed in PvP, where targets use %-based mitigation quite commonly.

Strider__Roshin · March 2019

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

technohic · March 2019

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It just pushes people to tank up more and only a couple classes have a natural access to some of the modifiers Its pretty much what happens. They put in oblivion damage and bleeds so people stack more health and healing. They cant seem to fix snipe desyncs which I think people try to use on purpose so people bulk up on resistances. They boost crit damage of khajiit and Shadow mundus, so people will run more crit resist. Damage multipliers start adding more damage, people get rid of vamp.

russelmmendoza · March 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

@Iskiab Just to clarify—this change does not benefit PvE damage output at all, because NPCs don't have %-based mitigation, AFAIK (but once again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Therefore, taking minor vuln as an example, whether you use the old or new formula makes no difference:

1.00 * 1.08 = 1.08
1.00 + 0.08 = 1.08

Vulnerabilities have only been buffed in PvP, where targets use %-based mitigation quite commonly.

Lets put it this way, let say before we apply incapacitating strike you have a defense reduction from all other sources amounting to 25%.

If you apply incapacitating strike from the old calculations it goes like this,

25% * 30% = 7.5%
Total defense reduction is 25% + 7.5% = 32.5%

If we apply incapacitating strike with the new calculations it goes like this,

25% + 30% = 55%
Total defense reduction is 55%

Are they the same?

TheYKcid · March 2019

@russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

Old:
0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

New:
0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

From the perspective of the NB, their damage dealt to you increased by (0.95/0.9) - 1 = 5.6% after the update

russelmmendoza · March 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

@russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

Old:
0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

New:
0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?

TheYKcid · March 2019

russelmmendoza wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

Old:
0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

New:
0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?

That's because damage dealt to you has a base multiplier of 1 (meaning incoming damage is 100% normally, which is intuitive).

When the NB debuffed you (prior to the update) the incoming damage was raised to 120% (20% more than usual), and therefore the multiplier becomes 1.2

If you used 0.2 that would mean being incapped reduced your damage taken to one-fifth, which is clearly not the case lol.

russelmmendoza · March 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

russelmmendoza wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

@russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

Old:
0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

New:
0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?

That's because damage dealt to you has a base multiplier of 1 (meaning incoming damage is 100% normally, which is intuitive).

When the NB debuffed you (prior to the update) the incoming damage was raised to 120% (20% more than usual), and therefore the multiplier becomes 1.2

If you used 0.2 that would mean being incapped reduced your damage taken to one-fifth, which is clearly not the case lol.

You see, your saying incoming damage, you add the debuff to damage, you add the debuff to the to the damage mitigation.

You said, .75 damage mitigation I add incapaciting damage mitigation debuff of .2 to that damage mitigation resulting to lesser damage mitigation.

Your adding incapacitating debuff directly at the incoming damage.

That damage mitigation should drop to .55 because of the new calculations.

TheYKcid · March 2019

I'm afraid I can't explain it any clearer than that, it's a math understanding issue at this point. Refer to the example calculation I performed in the OP for a breakdown of how the operations are handled, pre and post-patch.

Everything has been verified with ingame testing.

Iskiab · March 2019

Yea, you don’t need to be a mathematician to get the gist of it.

Protection buffs and the like apply after your resistances (so if your resistances are 20 percent, and you have 10 percent protection, the 10 percent applies to the 80% that gets past your mitigation so 28% total mitigation).

Vulnerability damage increases are percentage increases of the beginning damage. So continuing the above example if you have 10 percent vulnerability your damage taken is reduced to 18 percent mitigation.

Basicly that means vulnerabilities >>> protections.

Only thing that doesn’t make sense to me is magdk. They’ve always been pretty deadly in pvp but I haven’t seen an increase in their deadliness. Is the increased fire damage they give not a vulnerability?

Ragnarock41 · March 2019

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

Grimlok_S · March 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

StamNB, MagNB and HealthNB?

JK tho.. I changed all of my infused wpn dmg offhands to charged + shock glyphs with the patch. Interesting to see the change quantified.

Rikumaru · March 2019

Oh no... I foresee incap being mutilated in the not too distant future.

Ragnarock41 · March 2019

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

StamNB, MagNB and HealthNB?

JK tho.. I changed all of my infused wpn dmg offhands to charged + shock glyphs with the patch. Interesting to see the change quantified.

nightblade of any kind(as long as incap is used... Jesus I can't believe an ability as ridicilous as incap is buffed)
MagDK against vampires(now magDks , yeah they aren't the hardest hitting class but that quickly changes if you are a vampire, If you are a vampire, magDk is the hardest hitting class ever and nothing comes close. Thats just how it is and they didn't need any buffs against vampires, they already had the big edge)
Sorc(vulnerability... seriously sorcs do have tons of damage passives anyways.. I mean have you fought a magsorc recently?)

Eh, I guess anybody could slot a charged shock glyph but thats just... ridicilous. Anyways I don't play CP campaign, maybe these things aren't so bad in CP but in no-CP these classes are all absolutely ridicilous when it comes to doing damage.

So I guess I'll just shelve my medium armor Dk(I really don't think this whole deal helps medium armor) because fighting magsorcs or nightblades that can two shot you any moment is really not fun. I guess in the case of magsorcs you can at least tell their burst is gonna pop but nightblades are pure nightmare. 10k incap+6k suprise attack out of nowhere you're execute range and boom, there goes build creativity right out of window.

I'm playing a medium armor build with 24k resists plus blood spawn but I'm still getting instagibbed this patch against sorcs and nightblades. I can't even imagine how it would be to be a vampire on top of all that.

John_Falstaff · March 2019

Rikumaru wrote: »

Oh no... I foresee incap being mutilated in the not too distant future.

If that happens, so long PvE balance, we'll be in stamden/stamplar meta for the foreseeable future.

Strider__Roshin · March 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

Except things like mending, vitality, protection, purges, undodgeable attacks, etc.

But hey who's cherry picking?! Amirite?

Ragnarock41 · March 2019

Daus wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

Except things like mending, vitality, protection, purges, undodgeable, etc.

But hey who's cherry picking?! Amirite?

Oh yeah, because buffing the damage only for the already overperforming damage dealers will make Dks and templars so secure about going glass cannon instead of tanky. Exactly what I expect to hear from you though.