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MagDKs & Nightblades received a damage boost in Wrathstone — [ Vulnerability calculation changes ]

  • Danksta
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    NB do t have access to Minor vulnerability . Reason they hit harder is cause they ru. shadow mundie which got buffed by 5% and the other 10% from being khajit

    Everyone has access to minor vulnerability via shock enchant.
    BawKinTackWarDs PS4/NA

  • alexj4596b14_ESO
    alexj4596b14_ESO
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    I don't mind the new damage, I just wish we would have known about it ahead of time. PvP needs more damage anyway cuz everything is so Tanky.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    MalagenR wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Credits to @Reorx_Holybeard for discovering this change and sharing their findings with me. They also discuss some weird bugs that can temporarily disrupt the order of calculations in this earlier post.

    You are awesome, thanks for sharing. How is the 10% bonus from Off Balance in CP's effected by this?

    Ought to be unaffected, since the 10% bonus damage comes from Exploiter, a buff on the attacker. The offbalance debuff itself doesn't directly affect incoming damage.

    But valid concern, I'll test it when I have time (and a willing volunteer online)!
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    @MalagenR Just tested, Exploiter is an additive 10% bonus damage to the attacker. So it isn't affected by this new mechanic.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Lord-Otto
    Lord-Otto
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    I think at this point, it's a subconscious reflex of ZOS to buff Nightblades every patch...
    x'D
    Interesting find, YKcid!
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    That explains Flame Lashes for 7k I've been doing lately :smiley: And I don't even slot Engulfing Flames. Must have hit a stage 4 Vampire.

    So the conclusion is: Vampire is a big no in PvP?
  • Cathexis
    Cathexis
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    Subversive buff to the two most obviously overpowered classes?

    Shocked? Nawp.
    Edited by Cathexis on March 5, 2019 10:35AM
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  • Splattercat_83
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    They don't need to screw with soul harvest and incap because that would severly hit pve dps for nightblades in PVE. Thats one of the class defining abilities. They need to fix their damage mitigation
  • kojou
    kojou
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    Buff to IA and AS Destro Staff... :smile:
    Playing since beta...
  • MalagenR
    MalagenR
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    IA?
  • GeneralSezme
    GeneralSezme
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    As if Nb’s wern’t broken enough
    Invictus
    Cheese Engine
    HIGH LATËNCY

    My bombing videos

    Notable toons:
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    Zealot of the Great Sun- Blazeplar, frmr Emp Vivec


  • Iskiab
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    Infallible mage. People call it IA.

    I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

    PvP doesn’t have that limitation so it’s ultimately a buff to the lightning status effect and sorcs. I’ve noticed they have more burst these days and thought it was the change to their class in the last patch, it’s probably a bit of both.

    I’ll have to try fire front and lightning back bar as a magblade. Lightning blockade switching to fire front for big vampire damage.
    Edited by Iskiab on March 5, 2019 3:26PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Flips
    Flips
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    So should I change to shock or fire enchant s on all types of weapons in pvp?
    Soon cp1000

  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

    @Iskiab Just to clarify—this change does not benefit PvE damage output at all, because NPCs don't have %-based mitigation, AFAIK (but once again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

    Therefore, taking minor vuln as an example, whether you use the old or new formula makes no difference:

    1.00 * 1.08 = 1.08
    1.00 + 0.08 = 1.08

    Vulnerabilities have only been buffed in PvP, where targets use %-based mitigation quite commonly.
    Edited by TheYKcid on March 6, 2019 2:49AM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It just pushes people to tank up more and only a couple classes have a natural access to some of the modifiers Its pretty much what happens. They put in oblivion damage and bleeds so people stack more health and healing. They cant seem to fix snipe desyncs which I think people try to use on purpose so people bulk up on resistances. They boost crit damage of khajiit and Shadow mundus, so people will run more crit resist. Damage multipliers start adding more damage, people get rid of vamp.
  • russelmmendoza
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

    @Iskiab Just to clarify—this change does not benefit PvE damage output at all, because NPCs don't have %-based mitigation, AFAIK (but once again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

    Therefore, taking minor vuln as an example, whether you use the old or new formula makes no difference:

    1.00 * 1.08 = 1.08
    1.00 + 0.08 = 1.08

    Vulnerabilities have only been buffed in PvP, where targets use %-based mitigation quite commonly.
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Iskiab wrote: »
    I think it’s more a lightning staff buff. PvE bosses can only be set off balance or whatever a quarter of the time from the lightning effect, so pve healers run IA in trials.

    @Iskiab Just to clarify—this change does not benefit PvE damage output at all, because NPCs don't have %-based mitigation, AFAIK (but once again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

    Therefore, taking minor vuln as an example, whether you use the old or new formula makes no difference:

    1.00 * 1.08 = 1.08
    1.00 + 0.08 = 1.08

    Vulnerabilities have only been buffed in PvP, where targets use %-based mitigation quite commonly.

    Lets put it this way, let say before we apply incapacitating strike you have a defense reduction from all other sources amounting to 25%.

    If you apply incapacitating strike from the old calculations it goes like this,

    25% * 30% = 7.5%
    Total defense reduction is 25% + 7.5% = 32.5%

    If we apply incapacitating strike with the new calculations it goes like this,

    25% + 30% = 55%
    Total defense reduction is 55%

    Are they the same?
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    @russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

    Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

    Old:
    0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

    New:
    0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

    From the perspective of the NB, their damage dealt to you increased by (0.95/0.9) - 1 = 5.6% after the update
    Edited by TheYKcid on March 6, 2019 5:41AM
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • russelmmendoza
    russelmmendoza
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    @russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

    Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

    Old:
    0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

    New:
    0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

    Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

    Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    @russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

    Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

    Old:
    0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

    New:
    0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

    Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

    Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?

    That's because damage dealt to you has a base multiplier of 1 (meaning incoming damage is 100% normally, which is intuitive).

    When the NB debuffed you (prior to the update) the incoming damage was raised to 120% (20% more than usual), and therefore the multiplier becomes 1.2

    If you used 0.2 that would mean being incapped reduced your damage taken to one-fifth, which is clearly not the case lol.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • russelmmendoza
    russelmmendoza
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    @russelmmendoza You're approaching it the wrong way. You can't use the mitigation value itself—instead you have to use the complement. It also has to be in decimal form. So for someone with 25% mitigation, you would use a "damage taken" value of 0.75.

    Here's how you calculate (btw incap is 20% not 30):

    Old:
    0.75 * 1.2 = 0.9 (10% damage reduction)

    New:
    0.75 + 0.2 = 0.95 (5% damage reduction)

    Uhmmm, where did you get the 1.2

    Should'nt it be .75 * .2 = ?

    That's because damage dealt to you has a base multiplier of 1 (meaning incoming damage is 100% normally, which is intuitive).

    When the NB debuffed you (prior to the update) the incoming damage was raised to 120% (20% more than usual), and therefore the multiplier becomes 1.2

    If you used 0.2 that would mean being incapped reduced your damage taken to one-fifth, which is clearly not the case lol.

    You see, your saying incoming damage, you add the debuff to damage, you add the debuff to the to the damage mitigation.

    You said, .75 damage mitigation I add incapaciting damage mitigation debuff of .2 to that damage mitigation resulting to lesser damage mitigation.

    Your adding incapacitating debuff directly at the incoming damage.

    That damage mitigation should drop to .55 because of the new calculations.
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    I'm afraid I can't explain it any clearer than that, it's a math understanding issue at this point. Refer to the example calculation I performed in the OP for a breakdown of how the operations are handled, pre and post-patch.

    Everything has been verified with ingame testing.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    Yea, you don’t need to be a mathematician to get the gist of it.

    Protection buffs and the like apply after your resistances (so if your resistances are 20 percent, and you have 10 percent protection, the 10 percent applies to the 80% that gets past your mitigation so 28% total mitigation).

    Vulnerability damage increases are percentage increases of the beginning damage. So continuing the above example if you have 10 percent vulnerability your damage taken is reduced to 18 percent mitigation.

    Basicly that means vulnerabilities >>> protections.

    Only thing that doesn’t make sense to me is magdk. They’ve always been pretty deadly in pvp but I haven’t seen an increase in their deadliness. Is the increased fire damage they give not a vulnerability?
    Edited by Iskiab on March 6, 2019 12:00PM
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.
  • Grimlok_S
    Grimlok_S
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    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

    StamNB, MagNB and HealthNB?

    JK tho.. I changed all of my infused wpn dmg offhands to charged + shock glyphs with the patch. Interesting to see the change quantified.
    Light Attack Hero

    Class context
    Stamplar
    StamDK
    Stamsorc
    MagDK
    StamMAGStamden
    Magplar
    Stam NB
    Bomb NB
  • Rikumaru
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    Oh no... I foresee incap being mutilated in the not too distant future.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Grimlok_S wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

    StamNB, MagNB and HealthNB?

    JK tho.. I changed all of my infused wpn dmg offhands to charged + shock glyphs with the patch. Interesting to see the change quantified.

    nightblade of any kind(as long as incap is used... Jesus I can't believe an ability as ridicilous as incap is buffed)
    MagDK against vampires(now magDks , yeah they aren't the hardest hitting class but that quickly changes if you are a vampire, If you are a vampire, magDk is the hardest hitting class ever and nothing comes close. Thats just how it is and they didn't need any buffs against vampires, they already had the big edge)
    Sorc(vulnerability... seriously sorcs do have tons of damage passives anyways.. I mean have you fought a magsorc recently?)

    Eh, I guess anybody could slot a charged shock glyph but thats just... ridicilous. Anyways I don't play CP campaign, maybe these things aren't so bad in CP but in no-CP these classes are all absolutely ridicilous when it comes to doing damage.

    So I guess I'll just shelve my medium armor Dk(I really don't think this whole deal helps medium armor) because fighting magsorcs or nightblades that can two shot you any moment is really not fun. I guess in the case of magsorcs you can at least tell their burst is gonna pop but nightblades are pure nightmare. 10k incap+6k suprise attack out of nowhere you're execute range and boom, there goes build creativity right out of window.

    I'm playing a medium armor build with 24k resists plus blood spawn but I'm still getting instagibbed this patch against sorcs and nightblades. I can't even imagine how it would be to be a vampire on top of all that.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on March 6, 2019 5:39PM
  • John_Falstaff
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    Rikumaru wrote: »
    Oh no... I foresee incap being mutilated in the not too distant future.

    If that happens, so long PvE balance, we'll be in stamden/stamplar meta for the foreseeable future.
  • Strider__Roshin
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    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

    Except things like mending, vitality, protection, purges, undodgeable attacks, etc.

    But hey who's cherry picking?! Amirite?
    Edited by Strider__Roshin on March 7, 2019 12:07AM
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This sounds like good news! People have been way too tanky.

    It will only push people to build more tanky. The damage buff only exists for three of the already hard hitting classes, the rest gets nothing.

    Except things like mending, vitality, protection, purges, undodgeable, etc.

    But hey who's cherry picking?! Amirite?

    Oh yeah, because buffing the damage only for the already overperforming damage dealers will make Dks and templars so secure about going glass cannon instead of tanky. Exactly what I expect to hear from you though.
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