Why are they nerfing dungeons?

disintegr8 · March 2019

They've needed a third difficulty level for a while but instead of doing that they are just making the 'harder' ones easier.

They should really have normal, veteran and expert levels. The problem is that people who aren't up to expert dungeons would want them nerfed so that they can complete them.

Unless someone is prepared to say no to the nerf seekers, this will keep happening.

max_only · March 2019

Valagash wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Some of these changes also affected Normal modes. We continue to evaluate the Normal modes as well.

@Tyrion87 We have no plans to go back and retroactively make older content more difficult.

Do you plan to introduce a third difficulty like other MMO´s did? To keep your Veteran players busy and give them something challenging to work for?

Veteran players aren’t grinding the old dungeons. Vet Elden Hollow doesn’t attract any progression player, come on.

MikaHR · March 2019

disintegr8 wrote: »

They've needed a third difficulty level for a while but instead of doing that they are just making the 'harder' ones easier.

They should really have normal, veteran and expert levels. The problem is that people who aren't up to expert dungeons would want them nerfed so that they can complete them.

Unless someone is prepared to say no to the nerf seekers, this will keep happening.

They are already wasting much more money than they are making on these dungeon DLCs....and you want them to waste even MORE money on them to keep those who arent eve capable of sustaining and keeping these dungeon DLCs financially viable happy?

Do you WANT the game to shut down? Because that almost happened already and they had to rework whole game and ignored people like you who with your rhetoric and remove whole "VET levels/areas" epic fail.

MikaHR · March 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Or maybe stop making PvP players grind PvE for best PvP gear?

As i said before, monster sets should ONLY work in dungeons/trials (instanced content) and be like any other 2 piece bonus in anything that is NOT dungeon/trial (same as 3 piece trial sets....which should be extended to 5 pieces bonus as well)

I am so glad you are not in charge of the combat design in this game. That might be the worst idea I have ever heard especially since you can acquire them with PVP currency.

If that is so...why are PvPers doing vet dungeons huh genius? Because i can guarantee you they DONT want to do them.

You WANT this game to fail (just like the rest who followed your rhetoric) *khm* wildstar *khm* rift *khm*... ... ...

Im glad that money people seems to be starting looking into things and have an issue with devs making stuff that looses money and will put devs into line....just like they did after epic disaster that was launch and Craglorn back in the days., becuase these "DLC dungeons" have SAME excact issues that epic fail "VET levels/areas" had back in the day.

Because guess what, here is a BIG revelation for you: game has to be financially viable to continue existing, unless you personally are prepared to cover all the losses they incur to keep it "your way".

Jhalin · March 2019

ruikkarikun wrote: »

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We recently removed a handful of unnecessary and off topic comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil, constructive, and free of insults or personal attacks. Thank you for your understanding.

Thank you. Please listen less to 1-3% elitists who has static groups and perfect gear and 24/7 who can close any hard mode.

For the rest, try to close this veteran (not even HM) with dungeon finder or zone seeking. If you don't have static group you will feel how hard it is. I always wonder, just go and try it with pugs, because it's an a majority of the game, and you elitists are more more less.

It’s not the “elites” (aka good, dedicated players) that being this game down. They do everything to make it easier for newbies to learn.

Furthermore, those DLC dungeons are not even remotely requiring perfect gear or rotations.

I got together with a group I’ve never run with aside from one person, and we all felt like getting the new Meridian skin because standard vet is usually not bad.

My gearsets are the same old TFS/ VO/ Velidreth, with a gold Precise sword and a purple Decisive mace, the wrong weights on Head and Shoulder, and no vMA bow. It’s nowhere near BiS, even in race (Khajiit)

The other DPS was a DW and 2H Bosmer that used WW.

The only fight that wiped us was the Weeping Woman once before we knew the mechanics then cleared it, and the final boss Probably five times before we started to figure out the fire Auroran is way more deadly than the shock one.

I was the only one to have looked into the basic mechanics before that, and in the span on a couple hours with a far from BiS team, it was cleared.

So, if anyone complains about the new dungeons being too hard or for “the elites”, they really are full of it.

Itzmichi · March 2019

I mean I can understand the newer dungeons, maybe.. With a lot of good will and stuff, but what was wrong about wgt? This dungeon is basically a burn baby burn 🔥 dungeon these days.

Putinof · March 2019

If thats true i might aswell give them dungeons a go, cos tbh i cba to struggle with pugs, so basically never touched any dlc dungeons. they are worthless for me as i never managed to get far enough there to try again. Nerf everything to the groud so gear is easy to get for everybody. thats the way i like it when i play the game less then once in a week. it should be fun and nothing else.

CP5 · March 2019

Putinof wrote: »

If thats true i might aswell give them dungeons a go, cos tbh i cba to struggle with pugs, so basically never touched any dlc dungeons. they are worthless for me as i never managed to get far enough there to try again. Nerf everything to the groud so gear is easy to get for everybody. thats the way i like it when i play the game less then once in a week. it should be fun and nothing else.

Same gear drops on normal, would just need upgrades. And helms can be bought for gold from the pvp vendor, don't even have to set foot in the dungeon to get its helm. Nerfing everything to the ground as you encourage would make dungeons nothing more than glorified add killing, with nothing making the dungeon different than the easy overland content that already exists in the game.

MikaHR · March 2019

No, you got it all wrong, it should be 8-16 hours/day JOB!

When ZOS starts paying me 6 digit sum for playing their game, i might consider all these "hard work" comments seriously.

mcagatayg · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

mcagatayg wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

mcagatayg wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Very good. Maybe this will get more players involved. The small minority of players who run more difficult content have a blind spot for the average ESO player. I do not. I'm married to one, and have friends who also fall into the casual category. The average player does not want to be challenged beyond their limits, and they don't want to make this game a life goal. Accessibility matters, and this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. Hard mode isn't being nerfed, and there's no need to be snide about the skill level of players who just want to have fun. Sad, really, that any of that even needs to be said.

Accessibility was always there. It was called normal mode. Vet was supposed to be for those looking for a challenge.

True. ZoS nerfing dungeons is like you getting a participation trophy... Useless, and rewards laziness...

If you want a real trophy, go win some real trophies...in real world.

Someone playing computer games talking about "participation trophies", "uselessness" and "laziness"....

Whats the point of achievements then? Why people play this kind of games? I do it for the achievement, and when that achievement lose value, i feel bad because i tried so hard to earn that achievement.

I wanted to show the "nerfing" example of that in real life by talking about participation trophies. This game already has that, you get free stuff just by porting in anyway...

To give lazy peope fake feeling of usefulness by giving out meaningless "achievements"?

Calling computer games "hard work" means you never ever did any real hard work, come to me and ill put you to some proper hard work and you will never ever even think of calling compuer game "hard work".

Try running 100m under 10s. Now THAT is proper achievement that requires actual hard work....and no one can take it away from you.

I know what is "hard work". Im a guy from a 3rd world country, i have more than enough experience for it and thats why I value hard content. I came here to discuss the game, please stop focusing on people's real lives and focus on games issues. I'm not here to insult anyone related to real life issues. I value this game, love it that's why i created this topic in the first place. Creating easy content will just make look bad and in return diminish players which drive this game forward in my opinion. That's why im against nerfs. Like i said in this thread before even if these changes are for CP changes that are about to come they are bad. As players we will keep on adapting to nerfs to our characters, but on the other hand if the content gets nerfed...

MikaHR · March 2019

DLC dungeons have an obvious issues: no one wants to play them and ZOS is losing money on them. COmpletion and interest rates in these dungeons are an epic failure for ZOS. So they have 2 choices: make them much more popular or just stop making them. ANd shoving all the rewards (that you are crying about) didnt help a bit...as they just show up on cash shop to mitigate utter participation/interest and financial failure.

Seems you just cant grasp why are they nerfing them, thus your topic on the forums, and the answer was given to you plenty of times yet you just ignore it and rant on.

No, you have absolutely no concept what hard work as, and it has all to do with real life when someone uses "hard work" in reference to computer game.

Not to mention absolutely toxic "community" (niely shown in these kind of threads) that has formed up around "dungeon DLCs"....it rivals raid level toxicity! No, youre not really helping.

mcagatayg · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

DLC dungeons have an obvious issues: no one wants to play them and ZOS is losing money on them.

Seems you just cant grasp why are they nerfing them, thus your topic on the forums.

I realized that after dungeon's lead response, still I wanted to bring this issue to light. Because I don't like these changes. Not much to do I guess other than talk about it. They are right few people play them, but I didn't think the problem was difficulty. I'm not a top tier player, but even I can complete these dungeons for the skins for example with my friends after 2-3 hours at most. I'm just flustered with MMO players nowadays. These DLC dungeons are definitely one of the best in games I've played so far and yet they go unnoticed because most people can not do it with randoms and claim its too hard. They should come to realization that this is an MMO and you need to coordinate with your teammates to complete content. Not just roll over and finish content.

MikaHR · March 2019

If you want ZOS stop making them, by all means, continue on the same path.

The selfishness of these people is astounding, they would rather ZOS stop making them than make changes to them.

CP5 · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

If you want ZOS stop making them, by all means, continue on the same path.

The selfishness of these people is astounding, they would rather ZOS stop making them than make changes to them.

I'm sorry, but do you really believe that? Normal difficulty is a thing, and those who don't want to be challenged by the vet content can enjoy the dungeon there. What's the point of having two difficulty levels if the harder one is nerfed to the point of being nearly the same. Like the poster who quoted you before me said, this is an MMO, if you aren't willing to work together with others and try to challenge yourself then vet difficulty isn't for you.

MikaHR · March 2019

The level of interest in these dungeons speaks for itself, numbers dont lie. You can disbelieve it all you want and "this is a MMO" is as empty a statement as "its a red".

If you want to challenge yourself, take your own advice, take of your gear off and do it naked. Plenty of ways for players who actually WANT a challenge to challenge themselves, youre not one of them im afraid.

mcagatayg · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

The level of interest in these dungeons speaks for itself, numbers dont lie. You can disbelieve it all you want and "this is a MMO" is as empty a statement as "its a red".

If you want to challenge yourself, take your own advice, take of your gear off and do it naked. Plenty of ways for players who actually WANT a challenge to challenge themselves, youre not one of them im afraid.

Ok man that is your thought i guess. Taking gear off is stupid imo. Just like playing blindfold speed runs. Difficulty was never the problem. These changes are not gonna change anything imo.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · March 2019

I have to say, I’m kinda glad my ESO + will expire sometime this month. I’m tired of paying $15.00 for dungeons which I’m never going to go to ever.

MikaHR · March 2019

"mcagatayg wrote: »

"Taking gear off is stupid imo.

"Plenty of ways for players who actually WANT a challenge to challenge themselves, youre not one of them im afraid."

Talking about the devil.

And yes, something i agree upon with you, these cosmetic changes wont make a difference, only thing that would make a notable difference is solo modes for dungeons.

Malprave · March 2019

I guess in the end analysis I’m really taken aback by the number of people that would ruin something for somebody else because they can’t do it themselves.

Sylvermynx · March 2019

MikaHR wrote: »

Everyone should build that house with their own 2 hands....just because that is how tehy used to build it back then!

Well.... we did. Beginning in 1985.... It took us 5 years (on weekends and holidays and vacations) to mostly finish it. Then we retired in 1994 and "really" finished it.

We hired some subs for parts we couldn't do/didn't know how to do: fireplace, electrical, plumbing, carpet. Everything else we did ourselves - installing windows, doors, cabinetry, appliances, hard flooring.... Hard labor some of it. We live here to this day. Now, it's an "old house" which needs work we really haven't the money or the energy to do - but it's the house WE built.\

I snipped the last line of your post because I thought it was.... too in-your-face to quote.

lokulin · March 2019

Sylvermynx wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Everyone should build that house with their own 2 hands....just because that is how tehy used to build it back then!

Well.... we did. Beginning in 1985.... It took us 5 years (on weekends and holidays and vacations) to mostly finish it. Then we retired in 1994 and "really" finished it.

We hired some subs for parts we couldn't do/didn't know how to do: fireplace, electrical, plumbing, carpet. Everything else we did ourselves - installing windows, doors, cabinetry, appliances, hard flooring.... Hard labor some of it. We live here to this day. Now, it's an "old house" which needs work we really haven't the money or the energy to do - but it's the house WE built.\

I snipped the last line of your post because I thought it was.... too in-your-face to quote.

We bought our house that was already built (in the 1950s) and spend our time working on making the garden beautiful instead as it had become overgrown and unloved. Not sure what point I am trying to make here.

Sylvermynx · March 2019

lokulin wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Everyone should build that house with their own 2 hands....just because that is how tehy used to build it back then!

Well.... we did. Beginning in 1985.... It took us 5 years (on weekends and holidays and vacations) to mostly finish it. Then we retired in 1994 and "really" finished it.

We hired some subs for parts we couldn't do/didn't know how to do: fireplace, electrical, plumbing, carpet. Everything else we did ourselves - installing windows, doors, cabinetry, appliances, hard flooring.... Hard labor some of it. We live here to this day. Now, it's an "old house" which needs work we really haven't the money or the energy to do - but it's the house WE built.\

I snipped the last line of your post because I thought it was.... too in-your-face to quote.

We bought our house that was already built (in the 1950s) and spend our time working on making the garden beautiful instead as it had become overgrown and unloved. Not sure what point I am trying to make here.

Your point and mine - labor of love. Sometimes a game can be that too.

Silurus wrote: »

Never mind, deleted....and.....about voice comms, that are so widespread now, as discord and such? What about a hearing impaired player? Even if reading some guides, etc, but he just reached a ceiling of his/her skill? How's that going to go?
I know my skill ceiling, and no matter how i tried to get up from it, i can't do it better......for various reasons....

In my case, my hearing is excellent. However - voice comms do not work well over satellite, which is all I have for connect. So - no dungeons or group content for me, as I'm not going to foist 2k+ ms lag AND no voice comm onto other people.

Asking others to deal with my ping is just not right. So I'm never doing it.

wishlist14 · March 2019

The average gamer is not leet. Many people try their hardest and cannot achieve hm vet dlc dungeons or vet trials. It is not from lack of tryimg or because they suck or dont understand player mechanics. Latency plays a huge part in dps numbers and fight mechanics. Then there are those players that just cant find a raiding spot in a good, patient guild that is willing to train them. Or they try pugging, have a horrenduous experience or two and blame themselves...lose confidence.

I dont mind hard content being nerfed because I think of it this way. The leet players or above average players will beat the content before it gets nerfed anyways so theres their challenge. They dont miss out. All other players w ill finally get a chance to complete some of those achieves they've been dreaming of completing some day. So its win win for all eso,players not just the minority.

It's funny because ive read some angry comments about how some players feel entitled to get all achievements...that's so rich coming from players that have those achievements already and are just salty that god forbid some scrub that can only ever pull 30k dps might get a chance to those chieves too. 😆😆😆😘😘😘😘🙃🙃🙃🙃😜😜😜😩😂😂😂😃😃😃

Mygalomorpea · March 2019

Most of the opinions I see here appear to be related to dungeons on their own without context of other aspects.

My questionsis
If rewards are for completing high difficulty dungeons, what will they add if they increased to another higher level?

How will the 3rd difficulty be related to others for pledges?

If they add this, will they then also add another level to vMA? How would that effect drops in there then?

I do agree that decreasing the sure kill nature of some fights will be a great help in all but elite groups, have some major problems getting my one guild to even try veteran dlc dungeons because of old people complaints (they are mostly well over 50 years old), but now are no longer scared to death of them. And at the same time my trial progression guild is saying that it doesn't really matter since they already had the fight down beforehand.

And last note - if a boss other than the final boss is the biggest stumbling block, does that read as good design? If there is no noticeable difference between veteran and HM (like FH was), does that make sense?

GLP323b14_ESO · March 2019

Welcome news.

Game needs way to complete content without need for grouping with a bunch of zerg runners.

But it also needs to have harder level / greater reward level tiers that require a well coordinated, well balanced group.

Girl_Number8 · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey folks, we wanted to touch base to help explain some of the Dungeon difficulty adjustments in today’s patch and our reasoning behind them. The changes were first started during the Wrathstone update but just didn’t quite get finished in time. These changes were done as part of an evaluation of completion rates and drop off. We took a look at all of the Dungeon bosses and how often they were completed in relation to how often they were fought. We narrowed down several that seemed to be stumbling blocks for players and dungeons as a whole. From there we evaluated the bosses individually, auditing all of their abilities to see what was killing players and how each ability or add related to the fight’s overall difficulty.

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters. We will continue this process in the hopes of a better experience for all players. We appreciate that some players like the difficulty of encounters and we strive to maintain some of that while alleviating some of the break points. We hope this has cleared some things up for those players questioning the changes.

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

I mean most of us have done these too many times over and over, so who cares, Cx. We know the mechanics by heart and what to do to the point that even vet trials are not what they were and plus many guilds cheese them anyway but that is a different matter. This is simply what happens when we have played the same game for years, which is why they have newer content added more then any other game without fail. Zos, does meet their mark on that because we have a lot of new exciting things coming towards us in Elsweyr.

I just think a lot of the comments that were made are toxic and unnecessary. Zos made a decision and this gives more of a enjoyable experience to newer random groups on old content. Which is good since most players, even myself, run with their guildies. And from our experience and time in the game is the reason why we burn through this stuff so fast. I was happy when I achieved my first vMoL clear but I am more happy that ESO has new life always coming into it.

You can always make a NA or EU account that is opposite of what you already have and create some fun by starting fresh. Especially, if getting 'The Unchained' title is boring and too easy for you.

MikaHR · March 2019

lokulin wrote: »

We bought our house that was already built (in the 1950s) and spend our time working on making the garden beautiful instead as it had become overgrown and unloved. Not sure what point I am trying to make here.

You are just spoiled entitled brat, lazy and unsuccesful....according to certain people in this thread.

Ermiq · March 2019

ESO streamers I watch on YouTube already run all dungeons (DLC ones as well) on vet difficulty without a healer (tank + 3 DDs). The only dungeons they can't fully complete are Wrathstone ones, and I'm sure it's just a matter of time, a couple of runs more and they'll learn all mechanics and will be able to do it without a healer as usually.
As a player who always prefer to play a healer (or healer-supporter) I'm quite disappointed with the game's course.
Also, sad to see the game becomes even more casual friendly than it is already. I'm afraid some time later ZOS could even introduce new oversimplified character building system just like WoW did some time ago.

IwakuraLain42 · March 2019

p00tx wrote: »

On Xbox, when you pug a dungeon, we have the option to use voice comms to communicate with one another (provided they're working that day...it definitely comes with its own challenges), and it not only makes it easier to get through unfamiliar content together, but also facilitates the growth of connections and resultant friendships/partnerships and potential guild invites. There are no "static groups" as you've put it, because we have a very wide and complex social network in place on console, and this network extends across both PvE and PvP, and even intertwines the two. On PC, you're stuck typing everything out, which isn't feasible mid battle. It's actually pretty lonely and isolating playing on PC, and I enjoy the culture there far less because of it.

On Xbox, I'm part of a trader guild, a PvP guild, a social guild that fosters new players and we teach them rotations and level appropriate raid mechanics, a PvE guild with a wide range of players mostly trending toward end game, and a super sweaty end game raid guild. This exposes me (and many others) to a really wide range of people at all levels and ensures the average player doesn't really get pigeon holed into only one portion of the game, unless they actively choose to keep themselves there. There seems to be far less intrinsic separation of skill level on console than on PC.

I notice that you are playing on XBox/NA, i.e. on a North American server. This is completely different when playing on a European (in my case PS4/EU) server. In the four years I played the game I can count the number of PuGs that used voice comm on 2 hands (if at all ...). There is a simple reason for that, one that really seems to get lost among american developers: Europe has no single language. While quite a few players can read English, fewer can write it and even less are able or willing to talk/listen to it.

This might be less of a problem on PC as they had text chat from the beginning and writing/reading is easier then talking but on PS4/EU random communication simply does not happen. I'm pretty sure it's the same on XBox/EU.

It's one of the biggest fallacies from ZOS when designing dungeons with active communication in mind and forgetting/ignoring the problems that brings for their European players.

Also active PvE or trading guilds that are constantly running dungeons are a myths, I've not seen such beasts in a long time here ...

Jeremy · March 2019

Ermiq wrote: »

ESO streamers I watch on YouTube already run all dungeons (DLC ones as well) on vet difficulty without a healer (tank + 3 DDs). The only dungeons they can't fully complete are Wrathstone ones, and I'm sure it's just a matter of time, a couple of runs more and they'll learn all mechanics and will be able to do it without a healer as usually.
As a player who always prefer to play a healer (or healer-supporter) I'm quite disappointed with the game's course.
Also, sad to see the game becomes even more casual friendly than it is already. I'm afraid some time later ZOS could even introduce new oversimplified character building system just like WoW did some time ago.

Healing generally is just poorly designed on this game. I often requires players to stand in certain area of effects - which is next to impossible to do on many boss fights in this game because they require players to run all over the place. It also often has directional targeting requiring the healer to look at the target which can also complicate things as often times the damage dealers are behind the healer.

That's why many groups opt to go without a healer I believe. Because in many ways it's actually more dependable for players to just heal themselves instead of trying to find an area of effect circle to stand in or wait for the healer to get them in LoS.

So I wish ZoS would wise up and address what is actually the problem with healing on this game instead of nerfing everyone else's survivability in attempt to make healer's more needed. Because they are just going to create new problems by doing that without addressing the real one.