The Elder Scrolls Online

Vivec map now much more static due to overwhelming advantage to defense

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  • Soul_Demon
    Soul_Demon
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    Anrose wrote: »
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    Flips table

    For the umpteenth million time. You cannot bypass the GCD with animation canceling.

    You didn't flip the table, you merely didn't answer the question and added in GCD. It still remains "two skills going off in less time than the original game developers intended- wonder what a group of say 30 or so doing this would contribute to"
  • usmcjdking
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    Soul_Demon wrote: »
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    You didn't flip the table, you merely didn't answer the question and added in GCD. It still remains "two skills going off in less time than the original game developers intended- wonder what a group of say 30 or so doing this would contribute to"

    2 skills cannot go off in less period of time than intended. In some instances, with channeled abilities, the GCD can actually end before the skill resolves.
    Edited by usmcjdking on March 3, 2019 7:58PM
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  • Ruckly
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    Tomorrow is judgement day. Are we going to continued to get rifled by coldfire ballista that kill us faster than we know what happened and get a quick respawn or are we going back to disconnect on approach where you spend half your life in loading screens and eventually end up back at your gate forever later. Or maybe they tone down ballista and keep trebuchet artillery and catapult launchers as is. If this siege buff is unintended it is doubtful oil catapults will be looked at but since they take up a bunch of space and it is difficult to operate two like you can a ballista their damage should be relevant and they can be countered by trebuchets that fire slower but can arc over walls into a courtyard or where ever else. If ballistas were nerfed attackers should have an advantage due to greater number of siege placement slots and being able to overwhelm walls with trebuchet shots. And if you have a spotter overwhelming courtyards with trebuchet shots. Which would introduce something else and that is charging at the enemy under their pre-aimed trebs and wiping them outside walls. Which would in turn make catapults relevant to counter that tactic. Then rolling the flank would be relevant since it takes time to rotate siege. But who wants to go through all this trouble with positioning when one week ago well enough alone let you charge straight line into anything with very high numbers.
  • Soul_Demon
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
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    2 skills cannot go off in less period of time than intended. In some instances, with channeled abilities, the GCD can actually end before the skill resolves.

    You can keep going to the GCD if you wish, but it changes nothing about the question and not only that, you are dead wrong. Heavy attacks were supposed to take longer and you can animation cancel into a skill. That means you have all the calculations for not one, but two attacks in the same timeframe the original developers intended to have only one attack take. They designed it and NEVER intended there to be a way to force those calculations (double in same amount of time it takes for one). The server still process' those two- what do you suppose 30 people doing that would contribute to?
  • Fur_like_snow
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    Soul_Demon stop trying to derail this thread and take your ill informed opinion to one of the thousand threads about animation canceling.
  • Soul_Demon
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    Fur_like_snow wrote: »
    Soul_Demon stop trying to derail this thread and take your ill informed opinion to one of the thousand threads about animation canceling.

    First- it was brought up in this thread, second its not an attempt to derail it. Ever feel like you are sitting at Thanksgiving with all the adults and some random kid ends up sitting down in the middle of a serious conversation. The kid hears one of the adults say 'you cherry picked that' and then yells out "I like cherry's, pick them!"

    Same way I feel right now. Exactly the same.
  • vamp_emily
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    I've only been in Vivec a few times since the update about 4 hours. I think siege is fine the way it is. Players should not be able to sit in siege fire and not die.

    Not sure about non CP, I was in it when sload used to proc when siege was very strong and that was no fun at all. I suggest keeping siege the way it is in Vivec and then maybe evaluate how siege is in Non CP and lower the damage.

    Also on topic, when i was in vivec we took glade and then I went afk for 5 min. When i got back we had ales, bleakers, ash and was working on chal. Hard to believe the map is static.

    Edited by vamp_emily on March 3, 2019 9:33PM
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  • usmcjdking
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    Soul_Demon wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    You can keep going to the GCD if you wish, but it changes nothing about the question and not only that, you are dead wrong. Heavy attacks were supposed to take longer and you can animation cancel into a skill. That means you have all the calculations for not one, but two attacks in the same timeframe the original developers intended to have only one attack take. They designed it and NEVER intended there to be a way to force those calculations (double in same amount of time it takes for one). The server still process' those two- what do you suppose 30 people doing that would contribute to?

    Light and heavy attacks are not skills, and are not beholden to the GCD or the same ruleset skills are.

    What you are referring specifically too is known as the animation backswing. Animation backswings serve no purpose other than to create a smooth transition from skill resolution position to neutral position. They were not made with balance or combat mechanics in mind, much less performance.
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  • InvictusApollo
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    Minno wrote: »
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    That's because it'sa bug that actually solved something we care about; lag impacting performance. Here's why:
    - people actually spread out. Not just Zerg to bruma or a resource, they actually spread out acrossthe entire keep area. Wheeler tried for 5 years to get players to move apart with towns, AP gains, etc. What solved it? OP seige accidentally added lol.
    - some people were on seige instead of in tight balls spamming light attacks/cc or other AOE.
    - zergs stopped taking front doors. Keep fights lasted longer but required thought to attack. Even some group leads said it was more dynamic than in murkmire.
    - players died quickly, at least at keep fights.
    - lag reduced because of above points

    Now I get it's a bug and will be changed, but it's like reverting animation cancelling after theyfound it unintentionally added lol.

    I would give you a cookie for saving me time to write all that I think about this "bug". PvP is finally great again. We finally get real battles and not just duels of stacked groups. You actually need skill to survive. You can't just rely on group to sustain you. On the other hand even if you come in a pve setup you can participate and really help by operating siege engines.

    I hope that ZOS will give players more time to adapt to this new meta and enjoy it before making any changes.
  • technohic
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    Minno wrote: »
    show previous quotes
    show previous quotes

    That's because it'sa bug that actually solved something we care about; lag impacting performance. Here's why:
    - people actually spread out. Not just Zerg to bruma or a resource, they actually spread out acrossthe entire keep area. Wheeler tried for 5 years to get players to move apart with towns, AP gains, etc. What solved it? OP seige accidentally added lol.
    - some people were on seige instead of in tight balls spamming light attacks/cc or other AOE.
    - zergs stopped taking front doors. Keep fights lasted longer but required thought to attack. Even some group leads said it was more dynamic than in murkmire.
    - players died quickly, at least at keep fights.
    - lag reduced because of above points

    Now I get it's a bug and will be changed, but it's like reverting animation cancelling after theyfound it unintentionally added lol.

    It has been better when I have been on but I gave up when I got bar locked coming off siege at a keep wall with nothing to CC me near by. Had changed my build and was trying to not use my bar hotkeys and just use the toggle but was annoyed and it didn't even save me from the bug.

    How has it been over the weekend at prime time?
  • Minno
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    technohic wrote: »
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    It has been better when I have been on but I gave up when I got bar locked coming off siege at a keep wall with nothing to CC me near by. Had changed my build and was trying to not use my bar hotkeys and just use the toggle but was annoyed and it didn't even save me from the bug.

    How has it been over the weekend at prime time?

    I'll upload the mini Outpost near brindle fight I was at that happened at 3-4pm today. Minimal lag, salty night blades, one AD raid versus 5 DC groundmen and 3 seige engineers.
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  • TheYKcid
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    Funny how this got turned into another garden-variety anti-ani cancelling thread by someone who (surprise surprise) doesn't understand the fundamentals of ani cancelling...
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  • Soul_Demon
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    show previous quotes

    Light and heavy attacks are not skills, and are not beholden to the GCD or the same ruleset skills are.

    What you are referring specifically too is known as the animation backswing. Animation backswings serve no purpose other than to create a smooth transition from skill resolution position to neutral position. They were not made with balance or combat mechanics in mind, much less performance.

    No, its not. And if you don't want to consider the way the game process all the buffs/damage reductions/racial passive/resists/crit not crit/aoe/number of players at twice the intended rate because it somehow bothers you that animation canceling might be part of the lag problem then just say so.....avoiding the question or maybe you just don't understand the point is growing tiresome. Twice the number of calculations pushed through at a rate not intended....the calculations for BOTH must be processed by the game and all the other outliers and then damage taken applied....for not one but TWO different attacks. All attacks have multitude of process' that have to be ran...all of them.

    As far as what you are suggesting, at what points did you gain access to the devs and code to ascertain what you are saying? Do you work for the game and view this on a daily basis or were you part of the development team? I ask as you speak as though you know some driving factor that wasn't released by the dev's themselves....and I see you only came to the game in july of 2015- so you likely were not reading the posts that people made back after release regarding this issue OR you are part of the dev team now and are reading the code and somehow in contact with original devs too. Give some background on how you know what the attacks and animations were 'created' to do if you would.
  • TheBonesXXX
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    Joy_Division wrote: »
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    It is. As much as you or I or other people prefer that the game mechanics punish players who aren;t very skilled or aren;t very experienced, the PvP population can't take the hit if they stop logging in because they keep getting crushed.

    .
  • TheBonesXXX
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    Anrose wrote: »
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    Flips table

    For the umpteenth million time. You cannot bypass the GCD with animation canceling.

    The GCD isn't the issue, its how perception works and how they build the game to mimic binocular vision.

    Those animations are necessary movement for us to track.
  • ToRelax
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    Soul_Demon wrote: »
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    No, its not. And if you don't want to consider the way the game process all the buffs/damage reductions/racial passive/resists/crit not crit/aoe/number of players at twice the intended rate because it somehow bothers you that animation canceling might be part of the lag problem then just say so.....avoiding the question or maybe you just don't understand the point is growing tiresome. Twice the number of calculations pushed through at a rate not intended....the calculations for BOTH must be processed by the game and all the other outliers and then damage taken applied....for not one but TWO different attacks. All attacks have multitude of process' that have to be ran...all of them.

    As far as what you are suggesting, at what points did you gain access to the devs and code to ascertain what you are saying? Do you work for the game and view this on a daily basis or were you part of the development team? I ask as you speak as though you know some driving factor that wasn't released by the dev's themselves....and I see you only came to the game in july of 2015- so you likely were not reading the posts that people made back after release regarding this issue OR you are part of the dev team now and are reading the code and somehow in contact with original devs too. Give some background on how you know what the attacks and animations were 'created' to do if you would.

    Light attacks are single target abilities without any secondary AoE effects save proc sets which have a cooldown anyway. Their effect on lag should be minuscule compared to AoE skills and passives, from all the devs told us so far.
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  • Raudgrani
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    On Xbox here, so I haven't seen these changes. Taking an undefended outpost with like 10 guys, it takes what? 2 Minutes? A keep a little longer. When there's defense present, it can take all from like 5 minutes to an hour, but generally some 5-10 minutes.

    I personally think, that taking a keep/outpost should be a little more of an effort than this. It shouldn't be like "Oh they took our scroll, quickly get Blueroad and Sejanus, so we can stop them!". I mean, them damn guards must be pretty tired of getting beat up and change clothes all the time. I demand they get way better paid, or we make taking keeps a little more of an issue.
    I for one, wants fighting with other players over keeps a little more, and less chasing people taking empty keeps, and less taking half the map within 45 minutes. It's getting a little bit repetitive just putting up siege, firing for 1 minute, and then wait longer for the keep to turn once the flags are taken, than it actually took to kill everything inside it.

    A more static map: Yes please. I want to be able of visiting the toilet for "#1" or fetching a rice cracker, without getting back to realize I was killed at the wayshrine of a keep which was ours just 2 minutes ago.
  • Minalan
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    PC NA Vivec map is static all right, it's static yellow everywhere, this on the exact same day they nerf siege.

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