Vivec map now much more static due to overwhelming advantage to defense
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Theignson
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New siege can be fun, is controversial; the increased d ticks are nice. But what hasn't been mentioned is it makes the map very static. Vivec NA map has barely changed in the last 3 days in terms of what keeps are held. It is much harder now to take keeps. This could be proven quantitatively by ZOS if they calculated keep change of ownership now vs. before the changes. But, this makes the game a lot more boring/static at the level of the map, it seems to me.
3 GOs, a Warlord, and bunches of prefects etc-- all classes...I've wasted a lot of time in PVP
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Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agreed, taking a keep with even numbers attacking and defending feels impossible. You need 3x or 4x numbers to take anything.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The overpowered siege really isn’t intended and is gonna be fixed Monday. I feared that would happen in pvp, and have been avoiding Cyrodiil until it’s fixed. Considering the sieges also eat thru my shields, I also won’t have any defense against them.Sorcerer's pretty much been the same for years. Nerf Rush of Agony and Saints&Seducer's2 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭Seems the changes really encourage a couple of things. Staying inside keeps not going out to take other keeps playing only defensively. Grouping up in MASSIVE numbers to take keeps. PvDoor. All things players have voiced concerns about in past.6 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The rapids change also have an affect. I have not seen those ball groups since the update.1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yup.
The game is too hard for people at the moment.
Leave siege as is, there's finally some modicum of skill required in Cyro.0331
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Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Yup.
The game is too hard for people at the moment.
Leave siege as is, there's finally some modicum of skill required in Cyro.
It's strange seeing "siege" equated with "skill".15 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Haashhtaag wrote: »
Rapids change has literally nothing to do with siege being OP currently and causing the map to be stagnant.
The rapids change doesn't have anything to do with siege damage, other then people not being able to get out of it faster. But my point was, those rapid ball groups can no longer depend on their movement, so they are not going out and taking a resource to farm it.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »
It's strange seeing "siege" equated with "skill".
So was seeing "dynamic map plays" but keep taking in pre-WS was done when the keep was empty or done with faction zergs ignoring seige lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual4 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The rapids change doesn't have anything to do with siege damage, other then people not being able to get out of it faster. But my point was, those rapid ball groups can no longer depend on their movement, so they are not going out and taking a resource to farm it.
Hate to break it to you but if anything I feel its almost easier to move this patch so far as a group. Especially with people sieging more. Have to see how it goes after Monday@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »
It's strange seeing "siege" equated with "skill".
Bad players get crushed by siege, good ones don't. Pretty simple concept.
0331
06027 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »The overpowered siege really isn’t intended and is gonna be fixed Monday. I feared that would happen in pvp, and have been avoiding Cyrodiil until it’s fixed. Considering the sieges also eat thru my shields, I also won’t have any defense against them.
Don't STAND IN THEM ffs - what do you mean defense against? It's meant to knock down a wall and you just stand in it?
Been in Cyro all afternoon and died to siege exactly 0 times; and the map was not STATIC at all.
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IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sandman929 wrote: »
It's strange seeing "siege" equated with "skill".
and yet; no one seems to have the skill to GTFO of the blast zone *eyeroll*3 -
Heimpai✭✭✭✭✭AD had 2 dc scrolls the other day, dc got 1 back EP got the other..from AD‘s tri keeps, soo same as usual there..
Honestly nothings changed when i play, keeps are still lost you just have to use your brain a bit more..or slot purge or dodge roll 3x 🤔2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »Seems the changes really encourage a couple of things. Staying inside keeps not going out to take other keeps playing only defensively. Grouping up in MASSIVE numbers to take keeps. PvDoor. All things players have voiced concerns about in past.
What really gets me is that what you point out is exactly what happened the last time ZOS buffed catapults, too.
Massive groups required to take keeps and everyone wanting to sit on the walls and peg the breaches with catapults. Long fights with multiple breaches and faction stacks. Experienced groups doing PvDoor captures in order to avoid defensive siege.
This is truly nothing new under the sun.
ZOS reverted that buff.
Now we've got lots of players eager to try the same thing twice, hoping for different results?
I mean, I like playing Elder Siege Simulator Online every once in a while, but night after night of it got old the last time we tried it.3 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
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The rapids change doesn't have anything to do with siege damage, other then people not being able to get out of it faster. But my point was, those rapid ball groups can no longer depend on their movement, so they are not going out and taking a resource to farm it.
I don’t know if we can correctly draw a conclusion yet until the siege is resolved.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Massive groups required to take keeps and everyone wanting to sit on the walls and peg the breaches with catapults. Long fights with multiple breaches and faction stacks. Experienced groups doing PvDoor captures in order to avoid defensive siege..
"Experienced groups" would PvD anyway, because, surprise, surprise, capturing undefended keeps is quicker and easier than defended.
Furthermore, while PvD sucks, it sucks less than being roflstomped by entire faction that fast travelled there before one even unpacked a siege, because it saw the attack coming. That is imo the single most compelling incentive for players to avoid actual contact with the enemy.7 -
Ruckly✭✭✭✭When I'm involved in a siege it doesn't take 3-4x numbers to take a keep. Only need maybe 1.5x more attackers than defenders to prevent any kind of push. Sometimes even numbers are good enough. It might pile up to 4x numbers as a siege progresses if it is an emp keep because those are the natural lanes. I've seen 40 AD running around a resource outside Roebeck cutting the line between Nikel and Roebeck.0
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zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not difficult to take keeps. It's difficult for a mass of randoms to potato to a fd when surfing lanes and take a keep. That should be so.
In the past when groups had keep takes down to a science, we'd ninja keeps, but with the intention of holding them for dticks or map control, not oticks.4 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
What really gets me is that what you point out is exactly what happened the last time ZOS buffed catapults, too.
Massive groups required to take keeps and everyone wanting to sit on the walls and peg the breaches with catapults. Long fights with multiple breaches and faction stacks. Experienced groups doing PvDoor captures in order to avoid defensive siege.
This is truly nothing new under the sun.
ZOS reverted that buff.
Now we've got lots of players eager to try the same thing twice, hoping for different results?
I mean, I like playing Elder Siege Simulator Online every once in a while, but night after night of it got old the last time we tried it.
Yes.....but there is a little different flavor this time. Oblivion damage as 'siege damage' for all siege types, oils, fire siege, meat bags, ice trebs changes the paradigm a bit. Shields don't work, since they are considered oblivion damage this time and anything that specifically reduces "siege damage" simply doesn't recognize the damage as coming from a siege- so 100% full damage without a single modifier being used. Armor rating- ignored, shields ignored, glyphs ignored, gear sets ignored, many of the new racial passives ignored. Since we just has a complete revamp of the racial passives to "make them matter more" it strikes me as odd to render several of the completely mute. The only thing in the game I can think of that is completely an totally without a counter play in game. On the upside, you can direct que into game during prime time now on a weekend- wonder if that is a metric ZOS measures......1 -
Tavore1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My main issue is that it favours night cappers.
In the past a faction that for whatever reason plays mostly in prime time could push and flip the map, regain scrolls and so on by simply playing well during the busy period. They could get enough points during the competitive times to at least stay in touch with the lead.
With the new siege making taking a whole map after night capping much slower thus giving the advantage to those who are able to plat at times when most people have to sleep.
In EU vivec this has allowed EP who were holding on to first place by only a few hundred points to open up a big lead, not by being competitive but simply by waiting until other factions are sleeping.
This is exactly what happened last time they made siege so powerful.
The other frustration in lagadiil is that however aware you are of incoming siege all it takes is for your alt button to respond too slowly and you are literally toast, no skill involved.
I wish they would do some genuine innovation around siege...
For example rams should offer oil protection to some level, that is the whole point of them having a roof!
Add siege towers that have to be deployed x metres away from the wall and rolled into position by a group. Defenders can’t hit those pushing them but would have to destroy the engine or the team using it could gain access to the outer wall.
Have siege have varying impacts on different armour types - boiling oil on a metal suit, ow painful with long term burning. On leather still painful but easier to stop drop and roll. But... scattershot... bouncing off a metal suit but very painful to a medium wearer and shredding a robe.
They could really up the ways to play and counter play sieges without just adding another instakill mechanic.Edited by Tavore1138 on March 2, 2019 12:38PMGM - Malazan
Raid Leader - Hungry Wolves
Legio Mortuum0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »
Bad players get crushed by siege, good ones don't. Pretty simple concept.
It is. As much as you or I or other people prefer that the game mechanics punish players who aren;t very skilled or aren;t very experienced, the PvP population can't take the hit if they stop logging in because they keep getting crushed.5 -
Telel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agreed, taking a keep with even numbers attacking and defending feels impossible. You need 3x or 4x numbers to take anything.
Good news! If you're right then the griffs and bloops on vivec won't need to change any of their current tactics. They can just keep doing what they've been reliant on for a very, very long time.
=^.^=
Character: Telel
Class: Night Blade-Werewolf-viking-ninja-catgirl-mallet wielder
Past times: Refusing to go full magika spec, hitting things with a big hammer, sniping, and speaking in khajiit
Also: Gelel the Derp Knight, Altsel the streaker, and Filafel the temp temp.
Khajiit has a twitch stream! https://twitch.tv/telel_khajiit feel free to come see how truly unskilled Telel is.1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is anyone else just entertained by both sides of the siege argument claiming a skill high ground while ignoring any pros and cons?3 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep in mind that damage from players is increased as well. Can't really draw conclusions about the effects of single changes like that.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is anyone else just entertained by both sides of the siege argument claiming a skill high ground while ignoring any pros and cons?
My favourite is that it's a bug that is going to be fixed and they're all losing their heads over it.
That's because it'sa bug that actually solved something we care about; lag impacting performance. Here's why:
- people actually spread out. Not just Zerg to bruma or a resource, they actually spread out acrossthe entire keep area. Wheeler tried for 5 years to get players to move apart with towns, AP gains, etc. What solved it? OP seige accidentally added lol.
- some people were on seige instead of in tight balls spamming light attacks/cc or other AOE.
- zergs stopped taking front doors. Keep fights lasted longer but required thought to attack. Even some group leads said it was more dynamic than in murkmire.
- players died quickly, at least at keep fights.
- lag reduced because of above points
Now I get it's a bug and will be changed, but it's like reverting animation cancelling after theyfound it unintentionally added lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
Soul_Demon✭✭✭✭✭
That's because it'sa bug that actually solved something we care about; lag impacting performance. Here's why:
- people actually spread out. Not just Zerg to bruma or a resource, they actually spread out acrossthe entire keep area. Wheeler tried for 5 years to get players to move apart with towns, AP gains, etc. What solved it? OP seige accidentally added lol.
- some people were on seige instead of in tight balls spamming light attacks/cc or other AOE.
- zergs stopped taking front doors. Keep fights lasted longer but required thought to attack. Even some group leads said it was more dynamic than in murkmire.
- players died quickly, at least at keep fights.
- lag reduced because of above points
Now I get it's a bug and will be changed, but it's like reverting animation cancelling after theyfound it unintentionally added lol.
Interesting thing you mention I have wanted to ask about for a long time....animation cancels. Since they were not created by the original development team but were rather an 'accident' (according to them) ....think that might contribute to the lag in cyro? I mean they specifically said they set up skills to take a very specific amount of time to go off and did not intentionally allow a player to bypass that timeframe. Good point to bring in to any discussion of lag- two skills going off in less time than the original game developers intended- wonder what a group of say 30 or so doing this would contribute to.Edited by Soul_Demon on March 3, 2019 5:32PM0 -
Anrose✭✭✭✭✭Soul_Demon wrote: »
Interesting thing you mention I have wanted to ask about for a long time....animation cancels. Since they were not created by the original development team but were rather an 'accident' (according to them) ....think that might contribute to the lag in cyro? I mean they specifically said they set up skills to take a very specific amount of time to go off and did not intentionally allow a player to bypass that timeframe. Good point to bring in to any discussion of lag- two skills going off in less time than the original game developers intended- wonder what a group of say 30 or so doing this would contribute to.
Flips table
For the umpteenth million time. You cannot bypass the GCD with animation canceling.6
