Why are they nerfing dungeons?

Sanctuary_Reaper · March 2019

And there was me completeing vet bloodroot on sunday for the first time on pc the proper way, if i would of known about these changes i would of waited till today.

Oh well thems the breaks, but at least my main (healer) isnt gimped now, i can give hard mode a go.

Facefister · March 2019

ayu_fever wrote: »

dlc dungeons nerfed???

GOOD!!!

but all the dlc dungeons need several more nerfs because dlc dungeons are too hard.

i am only referring to normal mode! dont change veteran and hard mode, or make it harder. i dont care. i dont do veteran content. i leave thta nonsense for the meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists!
we filthy casuals want to play the dlc dungeon content just on normal and we want it vastly nerfed to be more accessible.
this will not have any negative effects on meta chasing alcast drone toxic elitists who just play veteran anyway.

So many buzzwords.

MLGProPlayer · March 2019

What's the point of DLC dungeons if they don't have mechanics? Why would I buy them now?

ZOS_Mika · March 2019

We recently removed a handful of unnecessary and off topic comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil, constructive, and free of insults or personal attacks. Thank you for your understanding.

DLM · March 2019

goldenarcher1 wrote: »

Baltharuch wrote: »

Can we get some developer notes or something? I'm really curious as to the reasoning behind removing mechanics and the rest of the nerfs. What's the goal they had in mind with this, other than the speculation in this thread?

It's quite simple really.

How often do you see it in zone chat>"LFG pledges non-DLC"

Insta-wipe mechanics don't go down well with the majority of the player-base.

What I often see in zone chat is people making groups of 1 tank + 3 dps, so heals are already not welcome. And now this is coming to vet DLC, why have a healer class at all if you don't want them in your dungeons?

siddique · March 2019

I remember playing Doom 2 and having my behind handed to me in Nightmare mode. The max I could ever finish it in was Ultra Violence. I would have loved to finish it in Nightmare and God knows I tried till the heavens cried.

But I couldn't. To this day, decades later, I remember it with fondness.

Had id software nerfed the nightmare mode, it would have long been forgotten.

Merlin13KAGL · March 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

They have a very specific reason why they did it. I cannot tell you since we are under NDA but they arent doing it to negatively affect healers in any way. ....

well sounds very likely to be the CP nuke we're expecting to hit with elsweyr

@SaintSubwayy do they intend to make known at a later date what this reasoning was, assuming you're allowed to even tell us that?

MLGProPlayer · March 2019

siddique wrote: »

I remember playing Doom 2 and having my behind handed to me in Nightmare mode. The max I could ever finish it in was Ultra Violence. I would have loved to finish it in Nightmare and God knows I tried till the heavens cried.

But I couldn't. To this day, decades later, I remember it with fondness.

Had id software nerfed the nightmare mode, it would have long been forgotten.

I never understood the point of nerfing top difficulties, unless they're fundamentally broken.

Raammzzaa · March 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Strange people mention mechanics and it's just a case of others getting good. Stating people should be willing to learn. I've been in grps where mechanics were irrelevant because of the dps on show. There have even been people in those groups that have admitted they have no idea about most of the mechanics because the bosses are dead before those mechanics even come into play.

How is burning *** down asap learning dungeon mechanics?

Exactly so why make them even easier?

Here's something a guildmate said today in discord it's just genius :

Could you imagine in school or at work if you’re like “excuse me... I don’t think I’m good enough to get this degree... could you make it easier?”
“Sure! You’ll be a Doctor yet"

And here's a genius reply from someone else today:

"If we're talking about doctors as in saving human lives out in the real world we have a valid need for them to be truly skilled and keep the bar high. But we're talking about people here playing a virtual game to pass their free time and simply have fun. Should we play all TV content in a mix of 6 different languages as well to make people do effort and increase their language skills ?"

Two of my guilds recently made BDO sections on their Discords since some of our players have been enthusiastic about making the switch. It’s not uncommon to hear ESO referred to as a dead game either. If nerfing the older DLC dungeons continues bring newer players into them than I’m supportive of it.

Now on the other hand, if you are veteran player that was regularly helping newer players learn, get through, and get the achievements from those content, and encourage them, then good on you - if there were more players like you Tamriel would be an even better community!

luizpaulom17 · March 2019

This is so disapointing... I was so excited with the Game... With the new Exp coming, new class and new trial with HM for all bosses... It looked like game was going in the right path! Bought 6 months of Plus so I could hit those Dgs and do all hard modes...

Wrathstone dgs were so hard when launched in PTS... Alcast took 3 days to bet hard mode... And apart from issues that needed to be fixed, it had really nice mechanics, challenging and interesting! It looked like Zos wanted the game to me more hardcore... But they nerfed them really hard for live...

Now I dont know anymore... I only hope that they are just testing some stuff or at least stop the nerf there

And to the people complaining that Pug groups were having a hard time doing dlc dgs: Well, this is a MMO game! Where U need to group up with people to complete content! Stop being anti social and find a good guild for god sake! Meet people and form groups for Dgs that are hard! Otherwise just give up and go back to Skyrim single player stuff!!

Im still making my group for arenas and Dlc Dgs, but I didnt cry like a baby for spending 5 hours on Dephs of Mal., cause it is something that can happens when U still dont have your own group!

EdoKeledus · March 2019

I don't understand why some people say it's the fault of PvPers, most of us don't care about PvE we just farm NM for the sets.

Even for the person who plays both PvP and PvE he/she has different characters or builds on the same toon and guild(PvE) to accomplish the HM contents.

I don't know why ZOS nerfed dungeon or who asked for that but stop trying to make responsible PvP community since we are the smaller of the two and this game is mainly PvE it's ridiculous.

EmEm_Oh · March 2019

Rikumaru wrote: »

Because of some entitled people who believe they should be able to complete every single piece of content in the game without actually working to improve at the game. Welcome to gaming in 2019.

The entitled people you mention are the ones who are the problem, but they aren't who you think.

They're the seasoned players who get an attitude.

They forget they were once in the same shoes as new players, and needed help, etc.

The entitled players that whine and complain about being paired up in a group of inferior players and leave, making the dungeon que worse...so ZOS took care of it as much as they could by nerfing some dungeons so new players don't have to worry about this crap when it happens and can possibly carry on without the know-it-all player. The amount of attitude in dungeons, is overly ripe, which is why I avoid them for the most part.

p00tx · March 2019

KhajiitFelix wrote: »

To make them possible for PvPers because they complain that they are too hard.

No we don't.

Michaelkeir · March 2019

I'm no expert but I'm guessing they nerfed them due to a lot of people avoiding those dungeons due to not being able to complete them. Either fake tanks, low dps, or not learning the mechanics.

I main a tank (3 tanks actually) and healer, and I strictly run dlc vet content (mostly vMoS or vMhK) for motifs mostly and I can't tell you how many times I've qued into a dungeon (usually random group finder) and about 40% of the time most just drop out or log off. And the few that stay can't complete the dungeon due to 1-shots and low dps.

I think these nerfs are aimed at making pugs more friendly/easier. Most dont research before going in and dont care to. They just want to complete the dlc dungeons on vet for achievements and such. I'm not saying I like it, I don't care either way. But the fact is a large majority of the player base just outright skips these dlc dungeons and Zos wants more people to do the content. So this is the result.

Raammzzaa · March 2019

Rikumaru wrote: »

Because of some entitled people who believe they should be able to complete every single piece of content in the game without actually working to improve at the game. Welcome to gaming in 2019.

I know, right? ZOS always catering to FILTHY CSUALS! I can’t stand them coming in here acting like since they have a job, school, girlfriend, life... that things dungeons in video game should be accessible to them in 2019. The nerve!

Also, yes, since you asked... I am a 40 y/o man named Chuck that lives in my parents basement, and plays a female character... Git gud, scrub! 🤣

Malprave · March 2019

Facefister wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I know the upcoming Trial in Elsweyr is going to have a Hard Mode for every boss, not just the final boss. Perhaps that is something ZOS intend to add to all DLC bosses, eventually? For now, they are toning down some of the PUG-Killer bosses as an immediate step, but these mechanics will one day come back as hard mode for that boss? Adding hard modes to each boss in all DLC Dungeons/Trials, not just the final boss, would be an interesting way to add a "third tier" to DLC Trials/Dungeons that uses existing game functionality.

Just put a "Scroll of Glorious Battle" before every boss. Then, casual players can play Normal, mid-tier players can play Veteran, and top-tier players can play Veteran Hard Mode. You could even mix and match hard mode and non-hard mode of different bosses within one instance based on group. Just don't read scroll if you realize this particular boss is just not going to happen on hard mode with current group, even if you do all the other bosses in hard mode.

The big problem with endgame group content right now is that Normal is too easy for 90% of players and Veteran is too hard for 90% of players. And requests that everyone just "git gud" are not realistic. Those requests basically come down to, "Why can't 100% of players be Top 10% players!?" There will always be players of varying skill. Exceptionally good, exceptionally bad, and everything in between.

ZOS need to figure out a way to make content appealing to a wider range of players. These latest changes are just shuffling around who it appeals to (i.e., from top-tier to mid-tier). But hopefully it is a first step.

Or just introduce a third difficulty where you have a chance to golden jewelry.

Interesting idea. Don’t know if this is the plan. I just hope there is a plan. I have played since launch and these DLC are my endgame. With these changes I’m not sure there is an endgame for me anymore.

ZOS_Finn · March 2019

Hey folks, we wanted to touch base to help explain some of the Dungeon difficulty adjustments in today’s patch and our reasoning behind them. The changes were first started during the Wrathstone update but just didn’t quite get finished in time. These changes were done as part of an evaluation of completion rates and drop off. We took a look at all of the Dungeon bosses and how often they were completed in relation to how often they were fought. We narrowed down several that seemed to be stumbling blocks for players and dungeons as a whole. From there we evaluated the bosses individually, auditing all of their abilities to see what was killing players and how each ability or add related to the fight’s overall difficulty.

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters. We will continue this process in the hopes of a better experience for all players. We appreciate that some players like the difficulty of encounters and we strive to maintain some of that while alleviating some of the break points. We hope this has cleared some things up for those players questioning the changes.

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

CipherNine · March 2019

Not really liking the path this is setting out for the game. The only role I like to play in ESO is healer. If ZOS is just going to make content completely pointless to have a healer then I am just going quit playing.

If I wanted to play a dumbed down easy mode kiddie mmo. Then I would go play WoW.

Integral1900 · March 2019

As someone who used to do hard mode regularly I have to personally I’m all for adjusting vet, there are whole guilds of players that simply won’t do that content because of its brutal reputation, anything that gets more players through this content cannot be bad and like he says, hard mode remains unaffected for all those who want the game to punch us repeatedly in the head

Besides, something had to be done, after all if there not enough players these dlc dungeons won’t get made

Odovacar · March 2019

Most all of us on here already completed these years ago multiple or countless times … I don't really agree with the changes but I'm not going to loose any sleep over them either...let the newer players have it easier than we did I suppose...but once they complete these they will have a big learning gap between those and V-trials...

Grandma · March 2019

I'm fine with it. Bloodroot forge nerf makes getting more earthgore helms easier, which i appreciate, and WGT is just annoying to pug. Basically, they're easier to pug. Doing hm + no death + speedrun is still a challenge that exists to players who want it, but this makes it easier for random dailies.

Tyrion87 · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

@ZOS_Finn
If you want hard modes to be the place challenging for players who actually seek challenge, then maybe it's high time to buff hard modes in older DLC dungeons. Because right now there is no difference between hard mode and non-hard mode on bosses like Molag Kena or Lord Warden. Currently they are being nuked by most end-game players who skip their significant mechanics.

Do you have any plans to adjust these fights to actually be challenging on hard mode for players who - as you said - seek to push themselves to the limit?

LordTareq · March 2019

Good changes, I like it. This makes dungeons and certain monster sets more accessible. Those that really want a challenge can still do hardmode. Everybody wins (expect for those 5 elitist players that feel strongly only they should be able to complete content).

Suddwrath · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters.

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

These encounters were also stopping groups in normal mode, so would it have been possible to just disable those mechanics for normal mode dlc dungeons but keep them in place for the vet versions for the players who wanted to push themselves throughout the entire dungeon? I agree that those mechanics were a bit much for normal modes, but veteran content is supposed to be more difficult.

frozzzen101 · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

Does that mean that HM Velidreth is unaffected with those changes?

Chirru · March 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What's the point of DLC dungeons if they don't have mechanics? Why would I buy them now?

LOL

Have not bought any DLC Dungeons since ESO stared and do them seldom.
Well, I get them with my subscription and wish I would get something else.

My suspicion...not many players actually do these dungeon more than once or twice.
Hence me thinks they making dungeons easier so as to attract more player.

Having said this... the Dungeons are not the problem... The Players are...Especially
the high strung...highly geared and very much impatient Alpha Males that scream and kick
at every one in a group who does not exactly play as they want them to play.

At least that is the reason I stay away from random groups.
Sure...you get some good ones. But more often than not Group play is highly frustrating...at least to me.

My opinion...to all those who complain dungeons are being made easier...
It Is Your Fault for not being nice to the less skilled, less geared and often greatly bumbling casual players.

Try to do DLC dungeons by yourself and see how good you really are...Yes, I did do that with some of the Undaunted ones. It is a humbling experience...but also did help me to identify the strength and weakness of my Char builds.

To finish...complain less, be nicer and enjoy life

honestly

Carbonised · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters. We will continue this process in the hopes of a better experience for all players.

And it is certainly appreciated by many of us, despite some of the hyperbolic negativity in this thread. Glad you finally get around to looking at the completion statistics, and make adjustments accordingly.

r34lian · March 2019

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey folks, we wanted to touch base to help explain some of the Dungeon difficulty adjustments in today’s patch and our reasoning behind them. The changes were first started during the Wrathstone update but just didn’t quite get finished in time. These changes were done as part of an evaluation of completion rates and drop off. We took a look at all of the Dungeon bosses and how often they were completed in relation to how often they were fought. We narrowed down several that seemed to be stumbling blocks for players and dungeons as a whole. From there we evaluated the bosses individually, auditing all of their abilities to see what was killing players and how each ability or add related to the fight’s overall difficulty.

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters. We will continue this process in the hopes of a better experience for all players. We appreciate that some players like the difficulty of encounters and we strive to maintain some of that while alleviating some of the break points. We hope this has cleared some things up for those players questioning the changes.

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

Tbh it's a welcome change and will let many of us do more like content for actuall player base rather than for those 2% elitist

Kuramas9tails · March 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

What's the point of DLC dungeons if they don't have mechanics? Why would I buy them now?

You didn't buy them before.....so why does it matter? Your argument is invalid.

pattyLtd · March 2019

I’m for this.
Still can do the challenge by doing HM and have a more reasonable learning curve to get there.

It’s better then the do once then never again as it is now for many many players. Just my opinion ofc, ymmv