When will the bleed meta end?
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barshemm✭✭✭✭@Calboy @casparian
Alot of tongue in cheek answers.
You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.
The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.
And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.
The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.
It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.
That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.
You do realise that it's not just bleeds killing you? They are only part of the equation and an easy target. Take away bleeds and those stam players will look to mace's and swords which will just give them more burst and you'll be back here again creating another discussion to better your own play style.
Fact is, nothing should do more damage to heavy armour when compared to medium and light because... Its heavy armour.
I'm sorry I mis-typed what I meant to say.
Bleed won't do more damage to heavy armor build, but will comparatively be more stronger than regular DOTs.
Whereas with light armor, it will be slightly worse than regular DOTs.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Bleeds do less damage to light/medium builds because those builds generally have higher weapon/spell damage and resources which makes their HOTs heal more per tick.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Calboy @casparian
Alot of tongue in cheek answers.
You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.
The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.
And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.
The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.
It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.
That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.
You do realise that it's not just bleeds killing you? They are only part of the equation and an easy target. Take away bleeds and those stam players will look to mace's and swords which will just give them more burst and you'll be back here again creating another discussion to better your own play style.
Fact is, nothing should do more damage to heavy armour when compared to medium and light because... Its heavy armour.
I'm sorry I mis-typed what I meant to say.
Bleed won't do more damage to heavy armor build, but will comparatively be more stronger than regular DOTs.
Whereas with light armor, it will be slightly worse than regular DOTs.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Bleeds do less damage to light/medium builds because those builds generally have higher weapon/spell damage and resources which makes their HOTs heal more per tick.
In b4 "but heavy armor healing passives" - which isn't entirely false btwEdited by Chilly-McFreeze on March 2, 2019 12:29PM0 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Please give me a solid example of how a stam build, using rally/vigor (most also use troll king), can get an additional HOT that will make it so that bleeds will be significantly less effective.
Also, please give an example of % damage mitigation that is as readily available to players as regular resistance so they can adopt it.
Lingering health pots, Troll King, Buffer of the Swift, Pirate Skeleton, Temporal Guard, Impregnable (bleed crits hurt), Malubeth.
7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.1 -
NinchiTV✭✭✭✭✭When people start wearing medium again and have the only 22kish HP like when imperial city came out, when the meta was juli/hundings was when pvp was the most balance IMO, people built for burst and they killed. People in heavy back then were tanks or healers and have *** dmg AS IT SHOULD BE. You shouldnt be able to have all 3, IMO light/medium = mobility/dmg but squishy. Heavy = tank/survivability but *** dmg. Heavy can do it all, so until that changes, my stamsorc will continue to bleed your poisoned blood dry.3 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bumi Rockafella wrote: »When people start wearing medium again and have the only 22kish HP like when imperial city came out, when the meta was juli/hundings was when pvp was the most balance IMO, people built for burst and they killed. People in heavy back then were tanks or healers and have *** dmg AS IT SHOULD BE. You shouldnt be able to have all 3, IMO light/medium = mobility/dmg but squishy. Heavy = tank/survivability but *** dmg. Heavy can do it all, so until that changes, my stamsorc will continue to bleed your poisoned blood dry.
Medium and light armor builds can easily get the same resistances as heavy, while benefiting from the damage bonuses from light and heavy. It´s called protective trait. So I call bs on that statement. And heavy armor should be able to deal a good proportion of damage if specced correctly, change my mind.1 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭It wont and it probably shouldn't, The problem is that everyone wants to be unkillable and kill everyone else. The game is not designed for that of course. All health-bars eventually, one way or another must reach zero. How that happens doesn't so much matter. There are some video games out there where you can be shot in the head at the beginning of a round and sit there in spectator for the remaining 15 mins and there isn't much you could have done about it. In this one you can get blown up but at least you come back quickly enough. The problem with building survive-ability is that you need to balance it with offensive capability and the two in tandem work to decide whether or not you will win a fight. so if you are dying its either, your too squishy, too weak to kill the opponent before thy kill you, or its a l2p issue.2 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bumi Rockafella wrote: »When people start wearing medium again and have the only 22kish HP like when imperial city came out, when the meta was juli/hundings was when pvp was the most balance IMO, people built for burst and they killed. People in heavy back then were tanks or healers and have *** dmg AS IT SHOULD BE. You shouldnt be able to have all 3, IMO light/medium = mobility/dmg but squishy. Heavy = tank/survivability but *** dmg. Heavy can do it all, so until that changes, my stamsorc will continue to bleed your poisoned blood dry.
GOD I miss those days. Things were so much simpler back then. Stamina actually wore medium armor, and there were very little of these SnB DPS-Tank Hybrid god builds running around.
Having said that, Mag sorcs were the bane of my existence back then, but I'd still take that over what we have now.3 -
Calboy✭✭✭✭✭
No, back then we had pre nerfed heavy armour and black rose and the forums were full of heavy armour meta complaints.Bumi Rockafella wrote: »When people start wearing medium again and have the only 22kish HP like when imperial city came out, when the meta was juli/hundings was when pvp was the most balance IMO, people built for burst and they killed. People in heavy back then were tanks or healers and have *** dmg AS IT SHOULD BE. You shouldnt be able to have all 3, IMO light/medium = mobility/dmg but squishy. Heavy = tank/survivability but *** dmg. Heavy can do it all, so until that changes, my stamsorc will continue to bleed your poisoned blood dry.
GOD I miss those days. Things were so much simpler back then. Stamina actually wore medium armor, and there were very little of these SnB DPS-Tank Hybrid god builds running around.
Having said that, Mag sorcs were the bane of my existence back then, but I'd still take that over what we have now.
1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No, back then we had pre nerfed heavy armour and black rose and the forums were full of heavy armour meta complaints.Bumi Rockafella wrote: »When people start wearing medium again and have the only 22kish HP like when imperial city came out, when the meta was juli/hundings was when pvp was the most balance IMO, people built for burst and they killed. People in heavy back then were tanks or healers and have *** dmg AS IT SHOULD BE. You shouldnt be able to have all 3, IMO light/medium = mobility/dmg but squishy. Heavy = tank/survivability but *** dmg. Heavy can do it all, so until that changes, my stamsorc will continue to bleed your poisoned blood dry.
GOD I miss those days. Things were so much simpler back then. Stamina actually wore medium armor, and there were very little of these SnB DPS-Tank Hybrid god builds running around.
Having said that, Mag sorcs were the bane of my existence back then, but I'd still take that over what we have now.
Oh it definitely had its problems, as does every update. But it was definitely my most memorable time. I spent a majority of my time in IC because there were actually people there, performance was overall better, and combat was fast and exhilarating - not this tree spamming warden ults, infinite heals, rage inducing poisons, steel tornado crap we have today. There were no combat breaking bugs, frame rates were excellent (compared to today), CP cap much lower.
Yeah HA was grossly overperforming, and proc sets were an issue, but god damn the game was in a good state considering.4 -
Rolexdt✭✭@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
I honestly want to know.
Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.
1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!
2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.
3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.
4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".
Now for the fun stuff:
1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.
2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.
3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?
Please consider these things.
-Kai
P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.
I couldnt have said it better myself. I have been playing mmo pvp since the 90s and everything described above is spot on to make pvp much more exciting and based on player skill. Proc sets and rng does not belong in pvp and if you insist on adding this element then scale the damage way down. Why is Scoria hitting as hard as most class based abilities and some ultimates? Ridiculous.1 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
I honestly want to know.
Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.
1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!
2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.
3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.
4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".
Now for the fun stuff:
1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.
2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.
3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?
Please consider these things.
-Kai
P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.
I couldnt have said it better myself. I have been playing mmo pvp since the 90s and everything described above is spot on to make pvp much more exciting and based on player skill. Proc sets and rng does not belong in pvp and if you insist on adding this element then scale the damage way down. Why is Scoria hitting as hard as most class based abilities and some ultimates? Ridiculous.
Skoria? Wait till you see zaan, that thing literally melts your face off. But hey, move out of the beam, it's not as if there are 8000 ice wardens perma snaring you
Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.0 -
Rolexdt✭✭@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
I honestly want to know.
Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.
1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!
2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.
3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.
4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".
Now for the fun stuff:
1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.
2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.
3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?
Please consider these things.
-Kai
P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.
I couldnt have said it better myself. I have been playing mmo pvp since the 90s and everything described above is spot on to make pvp much more exciting and based on player skill. Proc sets and rng does not belong in pvp and if you insist on adding this element then scale the damage way down. Why is Scoria hitting as hard as most class based abilities and some ultimates? Ridiculous.
Skoria? Wait till you see zaan, that thing literally melts your face off. But hey, move out of the beam, it's not as if there are 8000 ice wardens perma snaring you
I just used skoria as an example but yes zaan and all other procs. The reality is that you can still build this element in because it's fun to create builds that suit your playstyle and equipment is part of that. However, the damage should be way lower. I pretty much see zaan or skoria or grothdaar on every recap now and many times its multiple procs from multiple people. How people can justify that a player should take 50%+ of all damage from procs on a death is beyond me. Might as well remove all skills and just up the proc chance to 50% and we can run all run around with light attack.1 -
ATomiX96✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yall ever heared of lingering health / vitality pots? (its a old screenshot, major vitality is like 17 seconds these days, still worth though)
Works wonders against dot/bleed builds.
Also use CCs instead of sitting there just trying to outheal while your opponent is doing a PvE rotation on you basicly nullifying your healing attempts.
Edited by ATomiX96 on March 3, 2019 11:11AM1 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yall ever heared of lingering health / vitality pots? (its and old screenshot major vitality is like 17 seconds these days, still worth though)
Works wonders against dot/bleed builds.
Also use CCs instead of sitting there just trying to outheal while your opponent is doing a PvE rotation on you basicly nullifying your healing attempts.
Heard of them but never used them. I didn't know you could get 45 seconds of Major Vitality...that's insane (edit: I see that's outdated now). Can you get a +resource with a certain combo?Edited by brandonv516 on March 3, 2019 12:53AM0 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yall ever heared of lingering health / vitality pots? (its and old screenshot major vitality is like 17 seconds these days, still worth though)
Works wonders against dot/bleed builds.
Also use CCs instead of sitting there just trying to outheal while your opponent is doing a PvE rotation on you basicly nullifying your healing attempts.
This is exactly the problem. Bleed builds are forcing players to just be tankier, instead of the bleeds actually countering tanky builds. You are practically forced into using troll king and lingering if you are a stam player and troll king only gets stronger if you are wearing heavy. Bleeds aren't the answer to heavy armor. There shouldn't even need to be an answer to heavy if it was correctly balanced. However if they really wanted to provide a solution to heavy in the form of a weapon, maul should have been buffed alongside sword. Sword for higher damage vs lower resistances and maul for higher dmg vs higher resistances.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
I honestly want to know.
Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.
1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!
2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.
3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.
4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".
Now for the fun stuff:
1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.
2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.
3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?
Please consider these things.
-Kai
P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.
When magicka gets nerfed across the board. Where is this concept of stam being OP coming from. I wish my stam characters performed as well as magden and magplar0