When will the bleed meta end?

kaithuzar

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I honestly want to know.

Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.

1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!

2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.

3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.

4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".


Now for the fun stuff:

1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.

2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.

3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?


Please consider these things.
-Kai


P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.

Kadoin

When the heavy armor stam build meta ends.

kaithuzar

Kadoin wrote: »

When the heavy armor stam build meta ends.

I was just killed by multiple stam users in 1v1's & they were using bleed builds, 36k resistances, & 6k weapon damage; this is my 2nd day back after a few months off & it's still the same meta...

BRODY

When argonian tanks will be end in Syro, than bleeds will be nerfed.

Which bleed build killing you?

Undefwun

Among my other toons I have a bleed sorc..

Always ask in these threads, why are bleeds an issue and stupid high burst combos are not?

Damage that is done in 1-2 seconds with burst I have to stretch over 10s while you are moving and healing or being backed up, healed and cleansed by team mates and usually your'e hitting back. You have more of a chance against bleeds than being combo'd by other builds.

Templars and purge can totally negate a bleed build.

I agree on proc sets though... e.g watching earthgore proc is super frustrating. "Oh I did all this work, and they and their whole team survived and fully healed by pressing NO buttons".

Knootewoot

I just go to Cyrodill these days to kill mudcrabs near the shoreline.

Chilly-McFreeze

Undefwun wrote: »

Always ask in these threads, why are bleeds an issue and stupid high burst combos are not?

It's because Kai likes

kaithuzar wrote: »

3) Players like "fast time to kill"

Basically he made an extensive nerf thread to cater to his play style. Throw in some things that will most likely give you agrees and quickly you created a "balance thread backed up by the community".

Brrrofski

Just wish they would reworked them so they increase in potency as resists increase.

I've not run heavy for at least 3 patches and bleeds hit you worse than heavy as you don't have the extra healing. Same point with light too.

Baphomet

Arent't the only imbalanced bleeds nowadays Sloads and those that are artificially empowered by various weapons/sets?

I'd say that it's the special weapons/sets that need to be addressed rather than the bleed abilities themselves.

ZOS_RogerJ

Just a friendly reminder, as posts have been removed, to keep the thread constructive, on-topic and civil and that while it is okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official ESO forums.

Crixus8000

Kadoin wrote: »

When the heavy armor stam build meta ends.

I use heavy because it allows me to stay alive better vs these kinds of things. By making counters to heavy you just give people more reason to use it.

Undefwun wrote: »

Among my other toons I have a bleed sorc..

Always ask in these threads, why are bleeds an issue and stupid high burst combos are not?

Damage that is done in 1-2 seconds with burst I have to stretch over 10s while you are moving and healing or being backed up, healed and cleansed by team mates and usually your'e hitting back. You have more of a chance against bleeds than being combo'd by other builds.

Templars and purge can totally negate a bleed build.

Burst can be countered with skill, as it's usually easy to tell when your going to be bursted. Bleeds can't be countered if your not playing a templar, or in a group with a guy to always purge you, and even then I have seen many bleed builds kill good magplars in no cp, as damage is higher than healing. The only way to really counter bleeds is to stack insane healing, then people complain about tankiness.

Alucardo

Knootewoot wrote: »

I just go to Cyrodill these days to kill mudcrabs near the shoreline.

Even the mudcrabs in Cyrodiil are learning and started using bleed builds. Went to do some fishing, there was a mudcrab jumping around an AD corpse casting vigor and teabagging him

Priyasekarssk

kaithuzar wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

I honestly want to know.

Here is a list of other things which we're desperately needing something done about because they've been pure cancer for years.

1) Unmitigated damage - bleeds, sloads, oblivition damage; all terrible ideas that should have never entered the game & have 0 effective counterplay, please remove them all.
You can't "nerf bleed damage" & then add or rework sets in the game that allow it to be just as powerful. At a minimum the ticks are too long, 10+ seconds? The fight will be over in less than 5!

2) Proc sets - always cancerous all the time, they were over powered when first introduced, nobody wanted them, magicka has them now & nobody still wants them; i'm magicka & i don't want to use them because it's as if I'm supporting the cancer parade. The best way to explain why this is a bad idea is because it introduces "rng" into a fight that's supposed to be about skill.

3) Poisons - again, nobody who actually fights or actually pvp's wanted them, yet for some reason they're still around. When combined with the CP tree for resource drain, it's just a whole different kind of unbalanced cancer.

4) Block, shield, cloak, & dodge roll, these things should NOT be "spammable", no player should be able to create a build where they have above 75% uptime of one of these choice "methods of mitigation" The point of these skills should be "hit it when you need it" not "spam it until you run out of ... oh wait you don't run out of resources".


Now for the fun stuff:

1) Increase the overall base damage to account for losing the "cheese damage" listed above, once those things are removed; which I"m hoping & praying for.

2) Increase movement speed, I know you just nerfed it but there was a missed opportunity for a "happy medium", go there please.

3) Shorten/rework animations - Some skills are either super buggy or they can't be animation cancelled. This negatively impacts the overall fluidity of combat.
Remember early on in the game when players had horse races in Cyrodiil? There was a bug that when you were traveling full speed on your mount, you would come to a screeching halt, because you tripped on a rock or piece of terrain. That got fixed, why haven't combat animations (which are arguably more important)?


Please consider these things.
-Kai


P.S.
1) I didn't mention lag because I wanted this to be about balance.
2) Please git rid of the idea about "reduced duration of snares" it's not an effective mechanic.
3) Players like "fast time to kill" but we don't like fighting mechanics that do not have counterplay or are overtuned/overpowered.

So basically you want to run around objects and exploit movement speed. Movement speed is the biggest cancer in this game.

TheBonesXXX

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Basically he made an extensive nerf thread to cater to his play style. Throw in some things that will most likely give you agrees and quickly you created a "balance thread backed up by the community".

Now we are getting somewhere.

People need to stop going after others playstyles, agreed.

Grimlok_S

Please respect our bowman playstyle

Girl_Number8

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Basically he made an extensive nerf thread to cater to his play style. Throw in some things that will most likely give you agrees and quickly you created a "balance thread backed up by the community".

Now we are getting somewhere.

People need to stop going after others playstyles, agreed.

They need to play more classes and learn to PvP and actually have fun over their temper tantrums because they die or can't beat another player. I find it strange, as everything else is always seemingly to blame but the players themselves, smh. You have access to everything everybody else has in the game....except their experience, skill, and ability to theory craft builds to their playstyle.

TheBonesXXX

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Basically he made an extensive nerf thread to cater to his play style. Throw in some things that will most likely give you agrees and quickly you created a "balance thread backed up by the community".

Now we are getting somewhere.

People need to stop going after others playstyles, agreed.

They need to play more classes and learn to PvP and actually have fun over their temper tantrums because they die or can't beat another player. I find it strange, as everything else is always seemingly to blame but the players themselves, smh. You have access to everything everybody else has in the game....except their experience, skill, and ability to theory craft builds to their playstyle.

I wish people would go after the physics, the mechanics, and individual skill designs or even consider them.

No one likes to die when they're swangin', but I just hate this, "OMG NERF, ME > YOU, PLAY THE GAME MY WAY NERB".

It just opens that player to get roasted from a brotherly place, lots of players are too damn smart to have an irrational, juvenile, emotional response.

likecats

Undefwun wrote: »

Among my other toons I have a bleed sorc..

Always ask in these threads, why are bleeds an issue and stupid high burst combos are not?

Damage that is done in 1-2 seconds with burst I have to stretch over 10s while you are moving and healing or being backed up, healed and cleansed by team mates and usually your'e hitting back. You have more of a chance against bleeds than being combo'd by other builds.

Templars and purge can totally negate a bleed build.

I agree on proc sets though... e.g watching earthgore proc is super frustrating. "Oh I did all this work, and they and their whole team survived and fully healed by pressing NO buttons".

Pretty much every burst combo in this game is two things: An Ultimate, A skill that is avoidable (merciless, potl, sub-assault, dizzing swing).

Why is it ok for ultimates to have high damage? Because they are ultimates.
Why is it ok for the regular burst skills to have high damage? Pretty much all of them have counterplays that all classes can access.

If you are dying by a burst combo, you made a mistake. You could have completely avoided that mistake by L2P.

On the other hand, there is no counter to bleeds for 9/10 classes.
Regular DOTs are fine, because the counterplay is to build resistance.
But bleeds, no counter-play to bleeds because they work on all builds very effectively.

I don't want them to remove bleeds from the game, but they need to rebalance it.

Bleeds are stronger than regular dots for light armor and heavy armor. And that is the gist of why it is OP and needs to be rebalanced. It should only be stronger than regular dots for heavy armor builds, and weaker than regular DOTs on light armor builds. Medium armor should be used as a balance point where both DOTs are equally effective.

barshemm

People are getting nailed by bleed builds because they build to avoid burst, plain and simple.

likecats

barshemm wrote: »

People are getting nailed by bleed builds because they build to avoid burst, plain and simple.

How do you build to avoid bleeds?

casparian

likecats wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

People are getting nailed by bleed builds because they build to avoid burst, plain and simple.

How do you build to avoid bleeds?

Focusing on % damage mitigation over resists and adding multiple HOTs to your build.

likecats

casparian wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

People are getting nailed by bleed builds because they build to avoid burst, plain and simple.

How do you build to avoid bleeds?

Focusing on % damage mitigation over resists and adding multiple HOTs to your build.

Please give me a solid example of how a stam build, using rally/vigor (most also use troll king), can get an additional HOT that will make it so that bleeds will be significantly less effective.

Also, please give an example of % damage mitigation that is as readily available to players as regular resistance so they can adopt it.

Calboy

likecats wrote: »

barshemm wrote: »

People are getting nailed by bleed builds because they build to avoid burst, plain and simple.

How do you build to avoid bleeds?

Health regen + hots.

barshemm

In CP, don't go all in ironclad and neglect think skinned unless you can stack %damage mitigation and hots. Besides class/weapon skills there are lingering health pots. My bleed build usually hits those tanky block builds the hardest because they run sturdy instead of impen.

I can usually tell the people running under 40 thick skinned, my bleeds are usually hitting harder than my surprise attack.

That's most of cyrodiil right now. I can run around with a 24k tool tip berserker rage tool tip on my Stam sorc which means a high dizzy swing tool tip and just bang on people and they laugh it off. Put a couple bleeds on them and incap, watch them melt with my nightblade.

Bleeds are a direct counter to the heavy armor high direct damage mitigation meta. If more people run bleeds then the meta will change. The reason you notice bleeds is because that is what is killing you, you are shrugging off the rest of the direct damage combo players.

likecats

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

ZOS should just turn off all proc sets and CP in all PVP environments.

Sanctum74

likecats wrote: »

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.

likecats

Sanctum74 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.

That's like saying major defile doesn't kill you, damage does so you should build more resistance. Another tongue in cheek so to say.

Similar to major defile 2 patches ago,
The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.

It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.

That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.

Calboy

likecats wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.

The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.

It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.

That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.

You do realise that it's not just bleeds killing you? They are only part of the equation and an easy target. Take away bleeds and those stam players will look to mace's and swords which will just give them more burst and you'll be back here again creating another discussion to better your own play style.

Fact is, nothing should do more damage to heavy armour when compared to medium and light because... Its heavy armour.

likecats

Calboy wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.

The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.

It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.

That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.

You do realise that it's not just bleeds killing you? They are only part of the equation and an easy target. Take away bleeds and those stam players will look to mace's and swords which will just give them more burst and you'll be back here again creating another discussion to better your own play style.

Fact is, nothing should do more damage to heavy armour when compared to medium and light because... Its heavy armour.

I'm sorry I mis-typed what I meant to say.

Bleed won't do more damage to heavy armor build, but will comparatively be more stronger than regular DOTs.
Whereas with light armor, it will be slightly worse than regular DOTs.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Calboy

likecats wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

@Calboy @casparian

Alot of tongue in cheek answers.

You guys do realize that virtually every Stan build is already running vigor+rally+troll king.

The notion that people don't build to counter bleeds is simply dishonest, clear and simple.

And if you're running those three things then it's not the bleeds that are killing you. Hot's only do so much after that it's your turn to burst them down or get bursted. That's the way combat works, with or without bleeds.

The argument against bleeds is that it is not only strong against heavy builds but rather all builds.

It should be rebalanced so that regular DOTs and bleeds are equally effective on medium armor. Bleeds should do more dmg to heavy armor, and regular DOTs should do more dmg to light armor builds.

That's how balance works. As of right now, light/heavy, hots/shields, bleed is just too strong against everything.

You do realise that it's not just bleeds killing you? They are only part of the equation and an easy target. Take away bleeds and those stam players will look to mace's and swords which will just give them more burst and you'll be back here again creating another discussion to better your own play style.

Fact is, nothing should do more damage to heavy armour when compared to medium and light because... Its heavy armour.

I'm sorry I mis-typed what I meant to say.

Bleed won't do more damage to heavy armor build, but will comparatively be more stronger than regular DOTs.
Whereas with light armor, it will be slightly worse than regular DOTs.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

You're so polite