Juhasow wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

These races do not feel very unique. Both have the same spell dmg, nearly the same max mag, a small hybrid stat bonus, and a small situational defensive bonus. Players of each race seem to want to be top DPS, but I don’t see a lot of willingness to compromise, which may be why no changes resulted from all the threads on Altmer changes. Trying to be as reasonable and unbiased as possible (I’m playing Breton and Khajiit now anyway), I’d like to propose the following:

Altmer
- 129 Spell Damage
- 2500 Max Magicka
- Restore 625 of your highest max resource when using a class ability every 6s
- 10% Shield Strength

Dunmer
- 258 Weapon + Spell Dmg
- 1875 Max Magicka + Stamina
- Restore 625 of your lowest max resource when using a weapon ability every 6s
- 2310 Fire Damage


To summarize differences from Wrathstone release:
- Altmer gain 500 Max Magicka (~0.8% DPS gain)
- Altmer lose 129 Spell Damage (~2.0% DPS loss)
- Altmer gain the equivalent of about 100 Magicka Recovery if they use class skills, and give up Stamina Recovery (situational ~1.5% DPS gain)
- Altmer gain shield strength but give up mitigation while casting or channeling (more universal utility)
- Dunmer gain Stamina Recovery if they use weapon skills (mostly flavor, but also helps to refill their already larger stamina pool)

This would result in the following:
- Dunmer returning to their spot as #1 burst DPS, and outperform Altmer by about 1% where sustain is not needed
- Altmer returning to their spot as a midpoint between the damage of Dunmer and the sustain of Breton, without the passive defense of either
- Altmer would still get a defense passive, but it would be tied to active defense (shields). Altmer should by squishy if caught off-guard. This would also benefit tanks and healers, and have no effect on damage output.
- These changes would fit well with the lore. Altmer would have the largest Magicka pool and some ability to regenerate it. Dunmer would have more hybridization, without being made weak as a pure build, and their focus on Destruction and weapons would be more clear.

Great changes if someone wants to kill of altmer as usefull race. Problem You dont see is that max magicka bonus is not multiplicative with other percentage bonuses when spell dmg is. So at the end dunmer would've something like 170 more spell dmg but 625 less magicka , more max stam and better stam sustain. 10% shields strenght is useless buff since two main shields mag builds are using are capped at max health value so in PvE that bonus would be non existant and PvP it would also not work fully many times. Equivalent of 200 mag regen (100/sec is 200 regen) wouldnt compensate for the losses.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Claiming to want difference then falling back on DPS value percentages.

If you want them to be different, ask for them to be more different.

If you want their damage capabilities to be different, well, I can just ignore you.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Silver_Strider After reading your post in more detail, let me explain a little more. I agree a lot with your last paragraph, and this is basically what I’m suggesting. Using the ZoS idea of assigning set bonus values to passives, here’s what I was going for:

Dunmer:
2 Spell Dmg
1.7 Max Magicka
0 Mag Sustain
3.7 Total

Altmer:
1 Spell Dmg
2.3 Max Magicka
0.8 Mag Sustain
4.1Total

Breton
0 Spell Dmg
1.8 Max Mag
2.8 Mag Sustain
4.6 Total

Notice how the totals increase as the focus shifts toward sustain and away from damage. This is how the game is balanced, with pure damage being valued most. In fact nothing I said in the OP changes the Dunmer or Breton values shown here. I just placed Altmer a little more closer to the centerpoint between Dunmer and Breton, instead of it being essentially the same as Dunmer (all burst, no sustain).

Your quote “The difference between them all is that Dunmer has the highest Spell Damage of the Magic races but lacks all forms of sustain, on top of having less Max Magic than Altmer or Breton. Breton has less Magic than Altmer but the highest sustain, allowing for it to remain flexible in terms of sustain and utilize alternative options, such as different food, to enhance its damage. Altmer becomes an adept all around magic user, capable of performing any magic role without being OP.” is exactly how I feel on the subject.

I don’t want to get into too much detail in Khajiit in this thread, but my preference would be for it to fall between Dunmer and Altmer in terms of damage and sustain. It is currently falling short on the damage side, mostly because some of its resources are locked in health, and crit damage doesn’t synergizes well with the overpowered Shadow Mundus.

Juhasow wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

These races do not feel very unique. Both have the same spell dmg, nearly the same max mag, a small hybrid stat bonus, and a small situational defensive bonus. Players of each race seem to want to be top DPS, but I don’t see a lot of willingness to compromise, which may be why no changes resulted from all the threads on Altmer changes. Trying to be as reasonable and unbiased as possible (I’m playing Breton and Khajiit now anyway), I’d like to propose the following:

Altmer
- 129 Spell Damage
- 2500 Max Magicka
- Restore 625 of your highest max resource when using a class ability every 6s
- 10% Shield Strength

Dunmer
- 258 Weapon + Spell Dmg
- 1875 Max Magicka + Stamina
- Restore 625 of your lowest max resource when using a weapon ability every 6s
- 2310 Fire Damage


To summarize differences from Wrathstone release:
- Altmer gain 500 Max Magicka (~0.8% DPS gain)
- Altmer lose 129 Spell Damage (~2.0% DPS loss)
- Altmer gain the equivalent of about 100 Magicka Recovery if they use class skills, and give up Stamina Recovery (situational ~1.5% DPS gain)
- Altmer gain shield strength but give up mitigation while casting or channeling (more universal utility)
- Dunmer gain Stamina Recovery if they use weapon skills (mostly flavor, but also helps to refill their already larger stamina pool)

This would result in the following:
- Dunmer returning to their spot as #1 burst DPS, and outperform Altmer by about 1% where sustain is not needed
- Altmer returning to their spot as a midpoint between the damage of Dunmer and the sustain of Breton, without the passive defense of either
- Altmer would still get a defense passive, but it would be tied to active defense (shields). Altmer should by squishy if caught off-guard. This would also benefit tanks and healers, and have no effect on damage output.
- These changes would fit well with the lore. Altmer would have the largest Magicka pool and some ability to regenerate it. Dunmer would have more hybridization, without being made weak as a pure build, and their focus on Destruction and weapons would be more clear.

Great changes if someone wants to kill of altmer as usefull race. Problem You dont see is that max magicka bonus is not multiplicative with other percentage bonuses when spell dmg is. So at the end dunmer would've something like 170 more spell dmg but 625 less magicka , more max stam and better stam sustain. 10% shields strenght is useless buff since two main shields mag builds are using are capped at max health value so in PvE that bonus would be non existant and PvP it would also not work fully many times. Equivalent of 200 mag regen (100/sec is 200 regen) wouldnt compensate for the losses.

I don’t think that’s true. Max Magicka bonuses get a % multiplier. Assuming Inner Light 7%, Warhorn 10%, Undaunted 6%, and CPs 20%, that 625 Magicka difference becomes 625 x 1.43 / 10.5 = 85 equivalent spell damage (buffed). The Dunmer 129 extra Spell damage gets multiplied by 1.3, becoming 167.

So we’re weighing 82 buffed Spell Damage (about 1% DPS) against a moderate sustain passive. That’s a tough decision in my book.

Then there are the fine details, like Sorcerers getting a little more out of Spell Damage (1.36 or 1.38 multiplier usually), or Nightblades getting a little more out of Max Magicka (1.51 multiplier). Different sources of damage bonuses results in them being more or less useful for different builds. I like this, it prevents a single META race, they all have pros and cons.

I could probably be convinced that 150 Spell Damage on Altmer would be a better value than 129, but people tend to be wary about Altmer becoming too powerful. IMO they are looking like one of the worst options for Magicka DPS at the moment.

The shield bonus would have to apply after the health % cap, or it would be useless. I had previously suggested a damage taken % reduction while shielded, but someone pointed out that wouldn’t be helpful to healers with healing Ward or Barrier, or DK tanks sharing Igneous Shield, so this new wording allows it to strengthen shields cast on others too.

According to ZoS

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

On live server it seems to work with racials though but it still remains to be seen is it bug or intended change because they never said they've changed their minds about new flat value racials not being affected by CP percentage bonus.

Still even if it would work with CPs dunmers passives proposed by You would beat altmer ones. That shields idea seems like something made just to be made because someone was out of other ideas. It feels forced , not needed and with potential to come out as a mess that would be either super weak or way too strong based on how it would be calculated and in what enviroment.

Also that altmer stat values changes seems pointless. Basically You're taking away 129 spell dmg from him and giving him 500 magicka and ~200 regen at best but the thing is current live server altmer can achieve very similar results. By giving away 1 spell dmg enchantment from jewelery and replacing it with mag regen enchantment he would loose ~60 spell dmg and ~600 max magicka but would gain ~70 mag regen (I included most common multipliers) when compared to high elf proposed by You so at the end Your changes are not changing much except for taking away secondary resource regen.