Once again, ZOS ignores player feedback on ill-advised changes. Are you surprised?

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

No

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I'm not disappointed.

We were given three free race changes, plus some name changes as well. ZOS did not have to give us anything.

Paradoxically, they actually did listen to community feedback here.

Anyway, I come from Elite Dangerous, and... Well I'm not exactly a nobody in that community, let's just say that.

You know what happened when Frontier listened to community feedback? It made said community toxic as all heck, and destroyed the game balance.

I used to not see that, but now I do.

Some people aren't going to like what I'm about to say.

"The customer is not always right."

I feel this is especially true in games development. Most common fans just think about how the game can be changed to benefit themselves.

ZOS, as a GM for an extremely large community, has to balance changes for, if advertising is to be believed, millions of players.

With that many players, of course some will be disappointed. Humanity is a very diverse species after all. No two people think exactly the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of "let the developers develop", these days.

Design by committee doesn't work. Trust me, I've seen it destroy a game I otherwise love.

Most of the complaints this patch have been around lore.

ESO is grounded in 20+ years of TES lore. We expect the game to stay true to that lore.

When you repeatedly point out to the devs that something is blatantly lore-breaking (i.e. Altmer stamina regen, Bosmer with no stealth passive, etc.), you have a problem. That developer does not care about its own brand.

Azyle1 · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I'm not disappointed.

We were given three free race changes, plus some name changes as well. ZOS did not have to give us anything.

Paradoxically, they actually did listen to community feedback here.

Anyway, I come from Elite Dangerous, and... Well I'm not exactly a nobody in that community, let's just say that.

You know what happened when Frontier listened to community feedback? It made said community toxic as all heck, and destroyed the game balance.

I used to not see that, but now I do.

Some people aren't going to like what I'm about to say.

"The customer is not always right."

I feel this is especially true in games development. Most common fans just think about how the game can be changed to benefit themselves.

ZOS, as a GM for an extremely large community, has to balance changes for, if advertising is to be believed, millions of players.

With that many players, of course some will be disappointed. Humanity is a very diverse species after all. No two people think exactly the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of "let the developers develop", these days.

Design by committee doesn't work. Trust me, I've seen it destroy a game I otherwise love.

Most of the complaints this patch have been around lore.

ESO is grounded in 20+ years of TES lore. We expect the game to stay true to that lore.

When you repeatedly point out to the devs that something is blatantly lore-breaking (i.e. Altmer stamina regen, Bosmer with no stealth passive, etc.), you have a problem. That developer does not care about its own brand.

Maybe since ESO is before like Morrowind and stuff... they could say that the highelves had a weird "phase" early on about regenerating stamina.

You know, kind of like teenagers and grunge music.

zaria · February 2019

joseayalac wrote: »

I think that ZOS did listen to player feedback.

That doesn't mean that they will do whatever YOU had in mind.

Lol.

This, note that this was that this one expected of Khajiit tanks after the change.

Tanks, battleships are known to be pretty tanky.

CMDR_Un1k0rn · February 2019

No

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I'm not disappointed.

We were given three free race changes, plus some name changes as well. ZOS did not have to give us anything.

Paradoxically, they actually did listen to community feedback here.

Anyway, I come from Elite Dangerous, and... Well I'm not exactly a nobody in that community, let's just say that.

You know what happened when Frontier listened to community feedback? It made said community toxic as all heck, and destroyed the game balance.

I used to not see that, but now I do.

Some people aren't going to like what I'm about to say.

"The customer is not always right."

I feel this is especially true in games development. Most common fans just think about how the game can be changed to benefit themselves.

ZOS, as a GM for an extremely large community, has to balance changes for, if advertising is to be believed, millions of players.

With that many players, of course some will be disappointed. Humanity is a very diverse species after all. No two people think exactly the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of "let the developers develop", these days.

Design by committee doesn't work. Trust me, I've seen it destroy a game I otherwise love.

Most of the complaints this patch have been around lore.

ESO is grounded in 20+ years of TES lore. We expect the game to stay true to that lore.

When you repeatedly point out to the devs that something is blatantly lore-breaking (i.e. Altmer stamina regen, Bosmer with no stealth passive, etc.), you have a problem. That developer does not care about its own brand.

Shalidor.

Finedaible · February 2019

No

I've lost any respect for the company after this Wrathstone PTS and release update. Not so much because they didn't listen to player feedback, but because they deliberately sabotaged the most progress that had been made in the 1st week of the PTS. The majority of players were relatively happy with the changes in that first week, and ZoS could have simply tweaked numbers from that point on, and everything would have been okay. However, they eventually started making very random reworks to passives each week with no real reasoning behind them. Sure, they added a few "Dev notes" to 'explain' these changes, but none of them really made any sense, and just left us all scratching our heads. It's like they typed a random reason assuming that we should all automatically take it as adequate merit for the changes.

A forum is a place where an exchange of ideas on a subject occur. Ever since I've played this game though, I've only ever seen ZoS present their own ideas and ignore feedback. This 'forum' is more like a town crier announcing unwanted changes at this point. Remember the fallout with Heavy attacks Online: Morrowind update? I don't know why they even bother posting to this forum anymore if they are just going to force it down our necks anyway.

mayasunrising · February 2019

ZOS actually put in quite a few changes the community requested -including (hopefully) fixes to the long suffered stuck in combat bug - so I choose (unavailable) option 3; some people will complain no matter what ZOS does so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Zathras · February 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Are you surprised that, as usual, ZOS ignored the community?

I think your poll is limited, so I will give my answer:

ZOS didn't ignore the community.

They did, however, not feed into a very small, very loud, vocal subset that tried to dominate the forums. For that in itself, I am thankful.

Razorback174 · February 2019

No

Zathras wrote: »

ZOS didn't ignore the community.

They did, however, not feed into a very small, very loud, vocal subset that tried to dominate the forums. For that in itself, I am thankful.

Right, because all the Bosmer folk were just screaming to be meta...

BlueRaven · February 2019

No

The

Razorback174 wrote: »

Zathras wrote: »

ZOS didn't ignore the community.

They did, however, not feed into a very small, very loud, vocal subset that tried to dominate the forums. For that in itself, I am thankful.

Right, because all the Bosmer folk were just screaming to be meta...

Didn’t you hear? Improved stealth was so op they would have had to rebalance all of the trials! /Sarcasm

KommandantViy · February 2019

Finedaible wrote: »

I've lost any respect for the company after this Wrathstone PTS and release update. Not so much because they didn't listen to player feedback, but because they deliberately sabotaged the most progress that had been made in the 1st week of the PTS. The majority of players were relatively happy with the changes in that first week, and ZoS could have simply tweaked numbers from that point on, and everything would have been okay. However, they eventually started making very random reworks to passives each week with no real reasoning behind them. Sure, they added a few "Dev notes" to 'explain' these changes, but none of them really made any sense, and just left us all scratching our heads. It's like they typed a random reason assuming that we should all automatically take it as adequate merit for the changes.

A forum is a place where an exchange of ideas on a subject occur. Ever since I've played this game though, I've only ever seen ZoS present their own ideas and ignore feedback. This 'forum' is more like a town crier announcing unwanted changes at this point. Remember the fallout with Heavy attacks Online: Morrowind update? I don't know why they even bother posting to this forum anymore if they are just going to force it down our necks anyway.

Really? "None" of them made any sense? Now I can't get some of the complaints, like Bosmer losing something that was not only a big part of their balance but also of their flavor, but for the most part I'm happy with these changes. For one thing, now my Dunmer stamina characters won't be arbitrarily gimped because for some reason ZOS used to think they were a magicka only race, despite in lore almost always being described as masters of both sword and spell.

Also, while the bonus fire damage thing might have been a nice bit of dunmer specific flavor, I don't think it felt nice feeling forced to pretty much only play magicka DK to get the most out of that, and I am glad that their DPS bonuses apply to every damage type now, rather than just one that was only used in any significant amount by a single class that wasn't even technically dunmeri (it's akaviri) in design. Not to mention that in no previous Elder Scrolls games have Dunmer gotten bonus fire damage, merely they are highly resistant to fire due to living next to so many volcanoes and being accustomed to the heat and knowing how to cope with it etc, and they did not lose that in this patch.

MaxJrFTW · February 2019

What exactly are you talking about?

kargen27 · February 2019

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Pretty happy they took expert feedback over forum feedback.

Many class reps disagreed with the changes, including Alcast, who is one of the top, if not top, DPS in the game

And that is why his opinions shouldn't be given much weight. He isn't a typical player. Decisions need to be based on the typical players experience in the game.

merpins · February 2019

Not everyone has this opinion, and Zos isn't going to change something to appease the loudest few voices that are shouting for what they want and/or don't want. MMOs are about trial and error to get a good balance. Changes happen all the time. You'll like them sometimes and other times you won't, and sometimes the changes you hate, others will love.

BlueViolet · February 2019

No

I'm just really disappointed that the horrendous changes to poor Bosmer went live. Particularly after seeing a post by staff / dev about keeping changes within the rich, widespread lore of Tamriel ( or something to that effect ) only to go and strip Bosmer of something that is a part of their culture.

Hypocrisy at its finest

HatchetHaro · February 2019

No

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Pretty happy they took expert feedback over forum feedback.

Many class reps disagreed with the changes, including Alcast, who is one of the top, if not top, DPS in the game

And that is why his opinions shouldn't be given much weight. He isn't a typical player. Decisions need to be based on the typical players experience in the game.

Typical player experience in the game involves questing, questing, light attacking through normal dungeons, questing, trading, questing.

Sure ask them for advice on how to balance races.

Morgul667 · February 2019

They did a much better job this patch at listening and balancing

Im overall happy with the change and think the people should look at the bigger picture than just complain because zos didnt do exactly what they want

kargen27 · February 2019

Yes

HatchetHaro wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Pretty happy they took expert feedback over forum feedback.

Many class reps disagreed with the changes, including Alcast, who is one of the top, if not top, DPS in the game

And that is why his opinions shouldn't be given much weight. He isn't a typical player. Decisions need to be based on the typical players experience in the game.

Typical player experience in the game involves questing, questing, light attacking through normal dungeons, questing, trading, questing.

Sure ask them for advice on how to balance races.

Yeah that is part of it and yeah their opinions should matter as much as any other opinion. Typical player also includes those who enjoy the vet content but have no desire to make it on the leader boards so don't feel the need to squeeze every last point out of their character.
These changes should be great for the theory crafters. They get to come up with the new best builds. The one percent chasing the leader board can then put those builds to use and the rest of us can do what we enjoy.

Aznarb · February 2019

I don't have any issue with the change.
Community is not "you" it's everyone.
It's impossible to make all happy when something change.

max_only · February 2019

Yes

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I'm not disappointed.

We were given three free race changes, plus some name changes as well. ZOS did not have to give us anything.

Paradoxically, they actually did listen to community feedback here.

Anyway, I come from Elite Dangerous, and... Well I'm not exactly a nobody in that community, let's just say that.

You know what happened when Frontier listened to community feedback? It made said community toxic as all heck, and destroyed the game balance.

I used to not see that, but now I do.

Some people aren't going to like what I'm about to say.

"The customer is not always right."

I feel this is especially true in games development. Most common fans just think about how the game can be changed to benefit themselves.

ZOS, as a GM for an extremely large community, has to balance changes for, if advertising is to be believed, millions of players.

With that many players, of course some will be disappointed. Humanity is a very diverse species after all. No two people think exactly the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of "let the developers develop", these days.

Design by committee doesn't work. Trust me, I've seen it destroy a game I otherwise love.

We were just designed by committee though. If these were indie developers using their own IP then I fully agree, however they are not. You can’t change Vulcans to no longer be smart 5 years into a Star Trek game. That is a direct analogy.

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

But I'm not disappointed.

We were given three free race changes, plus some name changes as well. ZOS did not have to give us anything.

Paradoxically, they actually did listen to community feedback here.

Anyway, I come from Elite Dangerous, and... Well I'm not exactly a nobody in that community, let's just say that.

You know what happened when Frontier listened to community feedback? It made said community toxic as all heck, and destroyed the game balance.

I used to not see that, but now I do.

Some people aren't going to like what I'm about to say.

"The customer is not always right."

I feel this is especially true in games development. Most common fans just think about how the game can be changed to benefit themselves.

ZOS, as a GM for an extremely large community, has to balance changes for, if advertising is to be believed, millions of players.

With that many players, of course some will be disappointed. Humanity is a very diverse species after all. No two people think exactly the same.

I'm firmly in the camp of "let the developers develop", these days.

Design by committee doesn't work. Trust me, I've seen it destroy a game I otherwise love.

Most of the complaints this patch have been around lore.

ESO is grounded in 20+ years of TES lore. We expect the game to stay true to that lore.

When you repeatedly point out to the devs that something is blatantly lore-breaking (i.e. Altmer stamina regen, Bosmer with no stealth passive, etc.), you have a problem. That developer does not care about its own brand.

Shalidor.

That’s a non-sequitor. Shalidor is an example of what? He’s a magical Nord. He’s not a magical Khajiit, he’s not a paranoid Wood Elf. What is the point of saying Shalidor? The problems being pointed out have nothing to do with Nords.

max_only · February 2019

Yes

KommandantViy wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I've lost any respect for the company after this Wrathstone PTS and release update. Not so much because they didn't listen to player feedback, but because they deliberately sabotaged the most progress that had been made in the 1st week of the PTS. The majority of players were relatively happy with the changes in that first week, and ZoS could have simply tweaked numbers from that point on, and everything would have been okay. However, they eventually started making very random reworks to passives each week with no real reasoning behind them. Sure, they added a few "Dev notes" to 'explain' these changes, but none of them really made any sense, and just left us all scratching our heads. It's like they typed a random reason assuming that we should all automatically take it as adequate merit for the changes.

A forum is a place where an exchange of ideas on a subject occur. Ever since I've played this game though, I've only ever seen ZoS present their own ideas and ignore feedback. This 'forum' is more like a town crier announcing unwanted changes at this point. Remember the fallout with Heavy attacks Online: Morrowind update? I don't know why they even bother posting to this forum anymore if they are just going to force it down our necks anyway.

Really? "None" of them made any sense? Now I can't get some of the complaints, like Bosmer losing something that was not only a big part of their balance but also of their flavor, but for the most part I'm happy with these changes. For one thing, now my Dunmer stamina characters won't be arbitrarily gimped because for some reason ZOS used to think they were a magicka only race, despite in lore almost always being described as masters of both sword and spell.

Also, while the bonus fire damage thing might have been a nice bit of dunmer specific flavor, I don't think it felt nice feeling forced to pretty much only play magicka DK to get the most out of that, and I am glad that their DPS bonuses apply to every damage type now, rather than just one that was only used in any significant amount by a single class that wasn't even technically dunmeri (it's akaviri) in design. Not to mention that in no previous Elder Scrolls games have Dunmer gotten bonus fire damage, merely they are highly resistant to fire due to living next to so many volcanoes and being accustomed to the heat and knowing how to cope with it etc, and they did not lose that in this patch.

Thank you for this well thought out response. I agree that for the most part these changes are good or just “same old same old”. It exhausting to explain over and over that there is one discrepancy that is easily fixed and hurts no one. People who are gloating over “Zos didn’t listen to you nana nana” are searching for an opportunity to be cruel for no other reason than to feel superior. If one takes the time, like you have done, one can come to a reasonable conclusion. I didn’t want your post to go ignored because it wasn’t filled with flaming bait like the rest of these responders.

Emmagoldman · February 2019

I like the changes so far. We will see how things unfold

Ratzkifal · February 2019

No

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

My problem with the ace change is how they felt like not all the race have been re-worked by the same team.

I feel like you are on to something. Bosmer and Altmer changes feel fundamentally different from the way Breton, Imperial and Nord were handled.

JPcrazysquirrel3 · February 2019

No

Worst PTS cycle in the game's history.

To heck with all my characters and their races, apparently.

And quite frankly, to heck with ZOS, my ESO Plus subscription, and this game.

russelmmendoza · February 2019

No

The community was asking for a racial passive changes.
They get a racial passive nerf.
+2000 stam/mag vs +20% stam/mag.
I pretty sure a lot if not all of us roll with 30k + stam/mag.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Yes

russelmmendoza wrote: »

The community was asking for a racial passive changes.
They get a racial passive nerf.
+2000 stam/mag vs +20% stam/mag.
I pretty sure a lot if not all of us roll with 30k + stam/mag.

This would be true if max stamina and max magicka were the only stats in the game.

Of course you also got +258 weapon or spell damage or +258 stam regen or 7% magicka cost reduction or 8% weapon skill reduction or numerous other things.

Almost every race got buffed in Wrathstone. Many of them significantly. The problem here is that a lot of people just don't understand the first thing about how the game works.

klowdy1 · February 2019

frostz417 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

ZOS did not ignore the community. It does seem though that you ignored what ZOS has actually done in listening to our feedback to make your poll.

Just becuase you do not like the changes does not mean ZOS didn't listen to others.

If zos actually listened then,
they would’ve addressed the snare and root meta.
Performance in cyro wouldnt be an absolute Embarrassment
And Altmer wouldn’t have such a useless stam regen passive

Just because those things haven't changed yet, doesn't mean they dont have plans. Also, it's easier to make changes, than to try to figure out where a problem lies within millions of lines of code, then figure out how to fix it.

kmcaj · February 2019

not really when there's money to be made

Xsorus · February 2019

You’re not the community.

rabidmyers · February 2019

No

^

aaisoaho · February 2019

Disagreeing with the feedback does not equal to ignoring it. It seems they did a last minute change to altmer passive, so it now restores lowest resource on a class-skill cast.

I do not think it is against the lore. Since the lore in TES universe is filled with negative space, we do not have an absolute interpretation. Right now, it can be interpreted as lore friendly. For example: Tobacano the Magnificent casts a spell and starts feeling an adrenaline rush in his veins gaining more stamina. He feels his magicka levels becoming low and casts again and now more magicka pumps trough his body.

The bosmer stealth change, well I feel like it does not benefit the PVE side at all. Maybe they'll do some stealthing enemies in the next dungeon dlc, who knows, but as it is now, only PVP benefits. Still it is not quite against the lore, as the dev notes explained. Bosmers are now able to locate their stealthy prey better. (and FYI, I too would like to get our stealth passive back)