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Wood Elf New Passive Question

EpicRekkoning
EpicRekkoning
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I'm on console and can't test this in PTS. I've seen some mixed comments about the Wood Elf penetration passive. Do Wood Elves always get the penetration bonus or only after dodge rolling?

Thanks for you help. Trying to figure out how I want to build a few of my characters when released on xbox.
  • Alucardmike
    Alucardmike
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    Only after rolling.
    The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    That's too bad. Thanks for the answer.
  • Alucardmike
    Alucardmike
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    Bosmer will be total crap. Thanks to ZOS
    The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.
  • EpicRekkoning
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    If they made the weapon/spell pen permanent, they could be solid.
  • BattleAxe
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    If they made the weapon/spell pen permanent, they could be solid.

    Keep it on dodge roll and change stealth detect to reduced dodge roll cost. Just a suggestion maybe too OP
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    BattleAxe wrote: »
    If they made the weapon/spell pen permanent, they could be solid.

    Keep it on dodge roll and change stealth detect to reduced dodge roll cost. Just a suggestion maybe too OP

    It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. Dodge roll with increase speed is a defense mechanism to avoid damage and get away. Penetration is an offensive ability. I'm not much of a PvPer, but this combination seems counterproductive. From a PvE perspective, there's 0 benefit. You have to spend stamina to increase an offensive passive. No one will constantly keep dodge rolling every 6 seconds during dungeons/trials to maintain damage. Plus, all other offensive race passives don't require resources.

    I might be out in left field, but this combination just doesn't make sense. Its unfortunate too, because I could see a lot of new gear/mundus stone combinations for stam pve wood elves if the penetration was permanent.
    Edited by EpicRekkoning on February 24, 2019 5:34AM
  • MartiniDaniels
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    BattleAxe wrote: »
    If they made the weapon/spell pen permanent, they could be solid.

    Keep it on dodge roll and change stealth detect to reduced dodge roll cost. Just a suggestion maybe too OP

    It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. Dodge roll with increase speed is a defense mechanism to avoid damage and get away. Penetration is an offensive ability. I'm not much of a PvPer, but this combination seems counterproductive. From a PvE perspective, there's 0 benefit. You have to spend stamina to increase an offensive passive. No one will constantly keep dodge rolling every 6 seconds during dungeons/trials to maintain damage. Plus, all other offensive race passives don't require resources.

    I might be out in left field, but this combination just doesn't make sense. Its unfortunate too, because I could see a lot of new gear/mundus stone combinations for stam pve wood elves if the penetration was permanent.

    Devs and reps think that "competitive" bosmers exist only in PVP, and for PVP new passives are okay. As for PVE bosmers (dps wise), they imply that on live bosmers are much weaker then they are at U21 so it's a "buff". Fact that race lost racial identity.. well, a lot of races lost it with new passives, loremaster left team, probably we will see a lot of new stuff which opposes lore of previous games.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    BattleAxe wrote: »
    If they made the weapon/spell pen permanent, they could be solid.

    Keep it on dodge roll and change stealth detect to reduced dodge roll cost. Just a suggestion maybe too OP

    It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. Dodge roll with increase speed is a defense mechanism to avoid damage and get away. Penetration is an offensive ability. I'm not much of a PvPer, but this combination seems counterproductive. From a PvE perspective, there's 0 benefit. You have to spend stamina to increase an offensive passive. No one will constantly keep dodge rolling every 6 seconds during dungeons/trials to maintain damage. Plus, all other offensive race passives don't require resources.

    I might be out in left field, but this combination just doesn't make sense. Its unfortunate too, because I could see a lot of new gear/mundus stone combinations for stam pve wood elves if the penetration was permanent.

    Devs and reps think that "competitive" bosmers exist only in PVP, and for PVP new passives are okay. As for PVE bosmers (dps wise), they imply that on live bosmers are much weaker then they are at U21 so it's a "buff". Fact that race lost racial identity.. well, a lot of races lost it with new passives, loremaster left team, probably we will see a lot of new stuff which opposes lore of previous games.

    When the game first started it really felt like they were trying to be careful with the lore when it came to passives.
    Now there seems to be these glaring lore problems with a few of the passives that makes me wonder if they really care about the lore at all.
  • Marcus_Thracius
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    the only thing they care is crown crates - redying mounts and selling them for crown and ignorings the players that dissagree with them
  • Skander
    Skander
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    People forget bosmer are getting the only stam recovery passive in the game
    I meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
    -Elder Nightblades Online
    Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you have to die in those situations
  • Uryel
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    Skander wrote: »
    People forget bosmer are getting the only stam recovery passive in the game

    No they don't. That's one of the thing that made them awesome at stealth, too. +stealth and +stamregen was a perfect combination.

    Now stealth is being forcefully ripped away. And replaced by a detection gimmick that has no use in PvE, debatable use in PvP, and an offensive mechanics that triggers when you defend yourself.

    Go home ZOS, you're drunk.
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Skander wrote: »
    People forget bosmer are getting the only stam recovery passive in the game

    Recovery is resource management. While they may be the only class with stam recovery, other classes have passives to return stam.

    Devs and reps think that "competitive" bosmers exist only in PVP, and for PVP new passives are okay. As for PVE bosmers (dps wise), they imply that on live bosmers are much weaker then they are at U21 so it's a "buff". Fact that race lost racial identity.. well, a lot of races lost it with new passives, loremaster left team, probably we will see a lot of new stuff which opposes lore of previous games.

    My problem is the game has two play styles, PvP and PvE and most players focus on one or the other. They need to create a system where races are competitive in both otherwise why offer the race for both play styles. I understand that Bosmers may be better in PvE than they were, but that doesn't mean they're competitive.

    As far as lore goes, this is tough. Some of us are traditionalist and probably started playing this game because we played previous title (I'm included in this group). But like I've mentioned in many posts, this is a business. ZOS has to do what they feel is necessary to keep players and grow players. They may lose some players with their changes, but if they keep and gain more players than they lose, then it's a successful business change.

    I believe one way to bring back some identity is change the first passive in every race to something that the race continues to gain a benefit from after max level. For example, the Bosmer exp gain with bows is only good while leveling bows. If they had an increase damage or cost reduction or something like that while using bows, then they have some identity.
    Edited by EpicRekkoning on February 24, 2019 12:56PM
  • BlueRaven
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    It’s a bit off topic but;

    Imperial

    Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina.This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilites by 3%.

    Redguard

    Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

    •••

    I may have missed some others but are these not Stam restore passives?
  • JobooAGS
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    It’s a bit off topic but;

    Imperial

    Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina.This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilites by 3%.

    Redguard

    Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

    •••

    I may have missed some others but are these not Stam restore passives?

    Stam restore =/= stam regeneration, to play devil' advocate. Neither of those 2 are scalable, while bosmer's is.
    Edited by JobooAGS on February 24, 2019 1:36PM
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    It’s a bit off topic but;

    Imperial

    Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina.This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilites by 3%.

    Redguard

    Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

    •••

    I may have missed some others but are these not Stam restore passives?

    Stam restore =/= stam regeneration, to play devil' advocate. Neither of those 2 are scalable, while bosmer's is.

    What do you mean by scalable?
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    It’s a bit off topic but;

    Imperial

    Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina.This effect has a 5 second cooldown. Reduces the cost of your abilites by 3%.

    Redguard

    Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

    •••

    I may have missed some others but are these not Stam restore passives?

    Stam restore =/= stam regeneration, to play devil' advocate. Neither of those 2 are scalable, while bosmer's is.

    What do you mean by scalable?

    The bosmer's stam regen is affected by % modifiers such as cp, major and minor endurance and medium armor since you are adding 258 stam regen to your base recovery. A redguard's and an imperial's isn't, you are just restoring stamina.
  • Narvuntien
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    The bosmer stam regen is very useful they are not completely useless they are able to push their dps really hard with spammable such as elemental weapon and blue food is available to them that other races can't use.
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    The bosmer stam regen is very useful they are not completely useless they are able to push their dps really hard with spammable such as elemental weapon and blue food is available to them that other races can't use.

    I completely agree. Getting back to my original question and comment though, I just think attaching an offensive passive to a defensive mechanic is strange.
  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    The bosmer stam regen is very useful they are not completely useless they are able to push their dps really hard with spammable such as elemental weapon and blue food is available to them that other races can't use.

    I completely agree. Getting back to my original question and comment though, I just think attaching an offensive passive to a defensive mechanic is strange.

    Well my original suggestion for the passive was to add weapon damage which would of applied to your healing.
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    The bosmer stam regen is very useful they are not completely useless they are able to push their dps really hard with spammable such as elemental weapon and blue food is available to them that other races can't use.

    Stam regen =
    1. Inferior to weapon damage for PVE dps. I don't even want to hear about conversion of recovery to damage with enchantments etc, nobody use stam regen sets or serpent mundus for dpsing, everybody wants crit chance and WD;
    2. Useless for healers
    3. Of limited use for meta tanking
    4. Very good for PVP.

    Conclusion -> PVE wise bosmer is one of the weakest races.
  • Tigerseye
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    It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. Dodge roll with increase speed is a defense mechanism to avoid damage and get away. Penetration is an offensive ability.

    Not necessarily.

    You can use dodge roll to gap close, too.

    Especially if it has a speed bonus attached.

    I play a Bosmer Warden, with bow and dual wield and I often dodge towards enemies, ideally with bow equipped, to both gap close and avoid damage, at the same time.

    Think of world bosses, like Queen of the Reef - dodge roll, with speed boost, is already useful, there.

    Same with Keel.

    I appreciate it's somewhat situational, though...

    It's probably not going to be of as much use in a confined space.

    Although, if you do dodge roll (maybe sideways, in some cases) to avoid damage, rather than perhaps blocking, you can then obviously take advantage of both the extra speed and the penetration that provides, even in a smaller space.

    I'm not much of a PvPer, but this combination seems counterproductive. From a PvE perspective, there's 0 benefit. You have to spend stamina to increase an offensive passive. No one will constantly keep dodge rolling every 6 seconds during dungeons/trials to maintain damage. Plus, all other offensive race passives don't require resources.

    I wouldn't, necessarily, roll every 6 seconds, but I do tend to roll a lot. :smiley:

    I do get what you're saying, though.

    A true passive is almost always stronger than a boost that relies on you doing something first to acquire it; even if the latter appears to be slightly stronger in theory.



    Edited by Tigerseye on February 25, 2019 1:45PM
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Tigerseye wrote: »

    It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. Dodge roll with increase speed is a defense mechanism to avoid damage and get away. Penetration is an offensive ability.

    Not necessarily.

    You can use dodge roll to gap close, too.

    Especially if it has a speed bonus attached.

    I play a Bosmer Warden, with bow and dual wield and I often dodge towards enemies, ideally with bow equipped, to both gap close and avoid damage, at the same time.

    Think of world bosses, like Queen of the Reef - dodge roll, with speed boost, is already useful, there.

    Same with Keel.

    I appreciate it's somewhat situational, though...

    It's probably not going to be of as much use in a confined space.

    Although, if you do dodge roll (maybe sideways, in some cases) to avoid damage, rather than perhaps blocking, you can then obviously take advantage of both the extra speed and the penetration that provides, even in a smaller space.

    I'm not much of a PvPer, but this combination seems counterproductive. From a PvE perspective, there's 0 benefit. You have to spend stamina to increase an offensive passive. No one will constantly keep dodge rolling every 6 seconds during dungeons/trials to maintain damage. Plus, all other offensive race passives don't require resources.

    I wouldn't, necessarily, roll every 6 seconds, but I do tend to roll a lot. :smiley:

    I do get what you're saying, though.

    A true passive is almost always stronger than a boost that relies on you doing something first to acquire it; even if the latter appears to be slightly stronger in theory.



    I appreciate your input and I'm thinking more for end game dungeon/trial content. In solo play, this could be beneficial as a gap closure like you mentioned, but again, it still relies on a cost to use it (plus most solo content becomes really easy at max level and you dont need to rely on most of these passives). When thinking of the other races, there's not a cost associated with increase damage or weapon/spell damage passives.

    The main problem I have with this is you cant build around this passive. If it was permanent, you could adjust CP, mundus stones and/or other sets to still get to max penetration. With it only occurring after a dodge roll, you either have to keep dodge rolls in your rotation (not likely) or ignore it and build with armor, mundus, and cp like any other class. This is problematic because your end game build focuses on reaching max penetration, which means when you do dodge roll in a fight, you're already at max penetration and therefore receive no additional benefit from this passive. This is from a PvE perspective. PvP is a completely different animal.
  • Tigerseye
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    I appreciate your input and I'm thinking more for end game dungeon/trial content. In solo play, this could be beneficial as a gap closure like you mentioned, but again, it still relies on a cost to use it (plus most solo content becomes really easy at max level and you dont need to rely on most of these passives). When thinking of the other races, there's not a cost associated with increase damage or weapon/spell damage passives.

    The main problem I have with this is you cant build around this passive. If it was permanent, you could adjust CP, mundus stones and/or other sets to still get to max penetration. With it only occurring after a dodge roll, you either have to keep dodge rolls in your rotation (not likely) or ignore it and build with armor, mundus, and cp like any other class. This is problematic because your end game build focuses on reaching max penetration, which means when you do dodge roll in a fight, you're already at max penetration and therefore receive no additional benefit from this passive. This is from a PvE perspective. PvP is a completely different animal.

    Yeah, I get what you're saying and I agree.

    I'm not really sure why they went with this, to be honest?

    The speed boost after rolling I get, but the damage boost should have either been to a stat without a hard cap, or (ideally) a passive that didn't rely on dodge rolling at all.

    This whole racial change exercise was supposed to be about balance and this doesn't feel balanced, to me.
  • Narthalion
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    Pretty sure ZOS's concept here is Bosmer as a bow-user. Dodge roll out of damage, use the speed boost to get out of melee range or otherwise improve positioning, and do more damage with your bow for a few seconds. It's all about staying out of reach and bringing down your opponent with arrows.

    Using dodge-roll to close a gap makes sense, but my guess is that's a secondary use as far as they're concerned.

    Thing is...does anybody actually play this game that way? Makes little sense to do so in PvE; you're just wasting time and stamina and might agro more mobs in the process. So...just PvP, seems like. It's too narrowly focused.
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Narthalion wrote: »
    Pretty sure ZOS's concept here is Bosmer as a bow-user. Dodge roll out of damage, use the speed boost to get out of melee range or otherwise improve positioning, and do more damage with your bow for a few seconds. It's all about staying out of reach and bringing down your opponent with arrows.

    Using dodge-roll to close a gap makes sense, but my guess is that's a secondary use as far as they're concerned.

    Thing is...does anybody actually play this game that way? Makes little sense to do so in PvE; you're just wasting time and stamina and might agro more mobs in the process. So...just PvP, seems like. It's too narrowly focused.

    I see and agree with your observation and bow use in pve would be more viable if we had some better range skills. There's too many melee skills that are just better than the bow or class range skills. Rearming trap is too powerful to not use. I worked with some pve bow/bow setups with my stam sorc and could get 25-28k without relequen, but it was a struggle to push beyond that. One thing that could help is if we had some range stam support skills bow builds could use. At least it would give them a viable role in PvE content.
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