On Animation Canceling, Yes, Again
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Noctus✭✭✭✭✭itscompton wrote: »itscompton wrote: »The problem I have with Ani Cancelling is that it's not equally available to all the classes which makes for a huge imbalance in PvP. If I get into a fight with a "skilled" Sorc or NB on my Templar they are going to be able to ani cancel attacks so that I'm getting hit with 10-15K a second yet because Templars have so many primary damage skills with cast times that can't be ani cancelled I have no way to keep up in a slug out and the fight turns into me spamming HoD until I run out of Magica and die. And if the Sorc or NB can manage to CC you for anything more than 1 second they can just basically blow you up before you can even react.
That’s not animation canceling, the damage gets applied before the animation anyway. Templar skills just have cast times that make them not so fun on non-bruiser builds, as opposed to the instant cast abilities on other classes.itscompton wrote: »The problem I have with Ani Cancelling is that it's not equally available to all the classes which makes for a huge imbalance in PvP. If I get into a fight with a "skilled" Sorc or NB on my Templar they are going to be able to ani cancel attacks so that I'm getting hit with 10-15K a second yet because Templars have so many primary damage skills with cast times that can't be ani cancelled I have no way to keep up in a slug out and the fight turns into me spamming HoD until I run out of Magica and die. And if the Sorc or NB can manage to CC you for anything more than 1 second they can just basically blow you up before you can even react.
That’s not animation canceling, the damage gets applied before the animation anyway. Templar skills just have cast times that make them not so fun on non-bruiser builds, as opposed to the instant cast abilities on other classes.
Pretty sure that's the very definition of Ani Cancelling, you hit SA and then LA right after and the damage from SA applies even though the LA cuts off the animation of the SA.
and that all doesnt matter if u look at my comment above
itscompton wrote: »itscompton wrote: »The problem I have with Ani Cancelling is that it's not equally available to all the classes which makes for a huge imbalance in PvP. If I get into a fight with a "skilled" Sorc or NB on my Templar they are going to be able to ani cancel attacks so that I'm getting hit with 10-15K a second yet because Templars have so many primary damage skills with cast times that can't be ani cancelled I have no way to keep up in a slug out and the fight turns into me spamming HoD until I run out of Magica and die. And if the Sorc or NB can manage to CC you for anything more than 1 second they can just basically blow you up before you can even react.
That’s not animation canceling, the damage gets applied before the animation anyway. Templar skills just have cast times that make them not so fun on non-bruiser builds, as opposed to the instant cast abilities on other classes.itscompton wrote: »The problem I have with Ani Cancelling is that it's not equally available to all the classes which makes for a huge imbalance in PvP. If I get into a fight with a "skilled" Sorc or NB on my Templar they are going to be able to ani cancel attacks so that I'm getting hit with 10-15K a second yet because Templars have so many primary damage skills with cast times that can't be ani cancelled I have no way to keep up in a slug out and the fight turns into me spamming HoD until I run out of Magica and die. And if the Sorc or NB can manage to CC you for anything more than 1 second they can just basically blow you up before you can even react.
That’s not animation canceling, the damage gets applied before the animation anyway. Templar skills just have cast times that make them not so fun on non-bruiser builds, as opposed to the instant cast abilities on other classes.
Pretty sure that's the very definition of Ani Cancelling, you hit SA and then LA right after and the damage from SA applies even though the LA cuts off the animation of the SA.
No. You cannot overwrite Surpirse Attack with a LA because LAs do not have priority over abilities. You can use a LA then SA, but the reverse is untrue. Templars can actually do the same with a LA into jabs, but jabs is a channel, so its animation will exceed the GCD and you will have some downtime where another class will not even if both of you are weaving LAs before abilities
u can overwrite it with block but then again ur next LA and Skill will be on gcd and u cant start another attack0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »If animation canceling was to be removed the combat would be so boring. The one thing this game excels at is the combat. Taking away AC would dumb the combat down a lot. No thanks.
It's now part of the game. Intended or not, it's here to stay. Why do people dislike it anyway? I don't see there being any legit reason other than they can't do it very well. It's not going away, so I suggest people practice and learn how to do it.
This line of thinking is flawd because your assuming it can be learned to be autonomous. For some that's not the case and would like an alternative inorder to adapt.
So because some people can't do something - nobody should be able to?
You can play the game without animation canceling. Will you be as good at it as others? No. But you don't NEED to do it.
And most people calling for it aren't disabled - just lazy or bad at the game.
I can't speak for the lazy and I don't, but I never said remove it I said add another option for those who can't. That was it.
The option is to not so it. You don't NEED to apart from the very endgame content.
Sure, people will have an advantage over you in PvP but you can still play it. So the option is to just not do it...
So I paid 200+ so far on a game that no where does it say those with difficulty doing x,y,x may not be able to some content. No where does it say that. It does say something about epilepsy.
as war as i know skills and lightattack has gcd. macros are very limited.
some people here must wear tinfoil hats.
Light attack are not on the CGD as far as I know
they are and they are checked server side otherwise ud see people speedhacking the *** out of this game. even if u put a sequence to cancel things into each other on a macro it wont fire of a lightattack after the skill cancel also wont fire of another skill becouse of gcd on skill so yeh putting multiple actions on ur mouse wont get u far.
this thread is just a huge waste of time.
Light attacks do not share GCDs with abilities. The reason LAs won’t go off until skill animations finish is because skill animations have priority over LAs
yes but LA share GCD with LA. its true that u can cancel LA to skill to block but then u have to wait untill u can do it again becouse LA and skill will be on GCD (on their own GCD)
I like to differentiate the two cooldowns since it can confuse people, or otherwise contribute to people who think animation canceling or weaving somehow circumvents the ability GCD, but yes that is accurate.
And if you block cancel an ability animation you risk cuttting your stam regen for 2s, which is why almost no one does that if at all possible. Bar swap canceling at a couple points in a rotation is streamlined and LA weaving is fairly intuitive along with now being taught through ingame tips.
Edited by Jhalin on February 24, 2019 10:14PM2 -
Noctus✭✭✭✭✭alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »If animation canceling was to be removed the combat would be so boring. The one thing this game excels at is the combat. Taking away AC would dumb the combat down a lot. No thanks.
It's now part of the game. Intended or not, it's here to stay. Why do people dislike it anyway? I don't see there being any legit reason other than they can't do it very well. It's not going away, so I suggest people practice and learn how to do it.
This line of thinking is flawd because your assuming it can be learned to be autonomous. For some that's not the case and would like an alternative inorder to adapt.
So because some people can't do something - nobody should be able to?
You can play the game without animation canceling. Will you be as good at it as others? No. But you don't NEED to do it.
And most people calling for it aren't disabled - just lazy or bad at the game.
I can't speak for the lazy and I don't, but I never said remove it I said add another option for those who can't. That was it.
The option is to not so it. You don't NEED to apart from the very endgame content.
Sure, people will have an advantage over you in PvP but you can still play it. So the option is to just not do it...
So I paid 200+ so far on a game that no where does it say those with difficulty doing x,y,x may not be able to some content. No where does it say that. It does say something about epilepsy.
as war as i know skills and lightattack has gcd. macros are very limited.
some people here must wear tinfoil hats.
Light attack are not on the CGD as far as I know
they are and they are checked server side otherwise ud see people speedhacking the *** out of this game. even if u put a sequence to cancel things into each other on a macro it wont fire of a lightattack after the skill cancel also wont fire of another skill becouse of gcd on skill so yeh putting multiple actions on ur mouse wont get u far.
this thread is just a huge waste of time.
Light attacks do not share GCDs with abilities. The reason LAs won’t go off until skill animations finish is because skill animations have priority over LAs
yes but LA share GCD with LA. its true that u can cancel LA to skill to block but then u have to wait untill u can do it again becouse LA and skill will be on GCD (on their own GCD)
I like to differentiation the two cooldowns since it can confuse people, or otherwise contribute to people who think animation canceling or weaving somehow circumvents the ability GCD, but yes that is accurate.
And if you block cancel an ability animation you risk cuttting your stam regen for 2s, which is why almost no one does that if at all possible. Bar swap canceling at a couple points in a rotation is streamlined and LA weaving is fairly intuitive along with now being taught through ingame tips.
nice that someone else have an understanding of the game mechanics. i feel like im surrounded by tinfoil hats1 -
satanio✭✭✭✭If I would be to choose clicking simulator, I would choose Stronghold Crusader over ESO anytime. I don't understand what lies beneath the argument "but this makes the combat so cool, it would be boring without it". Well, I find weaving and ac boring.1
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DivineFirstYOLO✭✭✭✭If I would be to choose clicking simulator, I would choose Stronghold Crusader over ESO anytime. I don't understand what lies beneath the argument "but this makes the combat so cool, it would be boring without it". Well, I find weaving and ac boring.
OK, that is your opinion and that is fine, you DO NOT have to do it, but why try to take it from the people that do like to do it?
Removing weaving and animation canceling is not gonna make people suddenly clear the hardest content in the game.
So what is the general benefit from removing these mechanics?Zerg Squad
Godslayer x 4
Pro questing fees for RPers in Cyrodiil, pay your taxes!
PC - EU2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If I would be to choose clicking simulator, I would choose Stronghold Crusader over ESO anytime. I don't understand what lies beneath the argument "but this makes the combat so cool, it would be boring without it". Well, I find weaving and ac boring.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ESO’s combat. It is not a strategy game, for one, nor does it involve button mashing. It’s an action RPG in which split second reaction times are rewarded. Skillful timing of abilities separates average players from excellent players. Utilizing action priority is part of that skill, as is situational awareness, timing, and cooperation within a group.
Action priority is necessary for fluid combat. If you find fluid combat within an action RPG boring, and point to a strategy game for comparison as something fun and engaging, I don’t believe you’ve chosen the right game genre to occupy your time.3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OP has a good point, light attack weaving is difficult for the majority of players, and the main culprit is the animations in the game.
People can defend it as skill, but you’re fighting against the mechanics (animations) of the game. I’d say about 1 percent of players do it well, and someone’s chances of figuring it out on their own without coming to the forums or being told about it by guildies is close to 0.
I think the main people who’re defending it are those who put the time in to learn it, but ask yourselves if you think it’s fun? Light attack weaving/animation cancelling, inventory management, and boringly long guild quests are the main drawbacks of the game right now.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten3 -
satanio✭✭✭✭If I would be to choose clicking simulator, I would choose Stronghold Crusader over ESO anytime. I don't understand what lies beneath the argument "but this makes the combat so cool, it would be boring without it". Well, I find weaving and ac boring.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ESO’s combat. It is not a strategy game, for one, nor does it involve button mashing. It’s an action RPG in which split second reaction times are rewarded. Skillful timing of abilities separates average players from excellent players. Utilizing action priority is part of that skill, as is situational awareness, timing, and cooperation within a group.
Action priority is necessary for fluid combat. If you find fluid combat within an action RPG boring, and point to a strategy game for comparison as something fun and engaging, I don’t believe you’ve chosen the right game genre to occupy your time.
@Jhalin How does la weaving counts towards "split second reactions", it's mechanical isn't it? Dodge rolls and block are situational and I agree that it makes sense for defensive abilities to have higher priority. What I don't understand is offensive aspect of animation cancelling and I would be happy if you can elaborate on this particular thing.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »Animation canceling is what makes this game so interesting. If you are not able to practice it properly it's your problem, not the game's fault. Stop complaining about the real, true very interesting mechanic this game has.
So basically **** the people who can't do it due to something they can't help. Amazing solution.
And herein lies the rabbit hole on these forums with "animation canceling" You have one camp that has convinced themselevs that animation canceling is some advanced excution technique that heightens the gameplay system and creates a high skill ceiling (it is not and it does not) and another camp that takes this false belief and automatically takes the stance against it because of some kind of limitations they have when in reality there is no advanced physical demand to begin with.
Misinformation spirials this entire subject and it will never end.
Let's address this.
A person who is missing fingers, has nerve damage in certain areas of the hand, has had a brain aneurysm or was born with a mental inability to coordinate motor control of their extremities.
A person who is missing fingers is missing the extremities to perform the action.
A person with nerve damage to the hand would be unable manipulate the extremities in a way that could preform fast, accurate and sequenced actions repetitively.
A person who has had a brain aneurysm may that has not immobilized an extremities complete but limmited range of motion these people wouldn't be able to so perform because of the lack adapt tools or ToS requirements.
A person with ADD/ADHD or similar conditions who has motor coordination, memory recall and memory loss over the short term would not be able to coordinate, remember or even input the correct sequence with equal error to a average player.
All of these are very possible and have solutions.
And none of those disabilities serve as an inhibitor to animation canceling anymore than they do to the game in general.
Let examine how animation canceling works.
Animation canceling requires that a person be able to input information via button pres at a certain speed as minimum requirement. We know the GCD is 1 Second and that to weve or animation cancel you preform 1 - 2 other actions in a repeating sequence. This sequence would have to be fast enough to be lower then 2s but couldn't be faster then 1.001 seconds. This would have to occur in a repeating sequence 100s of times in a row with little to no error. Anyone with the stated issues would have to adapt to macros, alter keys bindings or just not do it.
There are numerous things in this game that require similar reaction times. Again physical disabilities impede ones ability to play the game, but this is not exclusive to animation canceling. There is nothing to solve.
Reaction time and sequenced actions are two very different things.
A reaction to say a incoming event only requires one or maybe two reactions. For example a NPC is doing a heavy attack, I can roll or block. That is 1 action.Note that this reaction can occur over more then 3 seconds. It typically does not occur in under 2 second intervials with multiple imputs within the 1-2 second range. In the case of a player two Actions are going to be preform thats a non sequenced repetitive reaction.
For example I am being attack by a melee player I am a ranged user with little to no armor. I know I need to get away. My kit allows 2 things that I am able to chose to perform, and 2 other actions that I don't chose. I chose which CC/Escape/deffsenive moves I have and the amount of key actions required to preform it. Then I have roll/block and of course runaway. So in that case of a CC that is one actions not a LA, skill, block sequence. In the case of a shield that is repetitive hitting the same button with no sequence such as LA,skill, block for canceling. Now in the case of a situation I am useing two skills to get away that is two actions that are sequenced Repetitive actions. example pushing button 1 and button 2 most likely not in a sequence depending on the actions effect. Now if I had to cancel the animation of a two actions it would be a sequence of LA,skill, block twice in a range of 1-2 seconds in a repetitive sequence x amount of time.
Reaction vs Repetitive Sequences are very different.
I fixed some Grammer issues...cuz I suck at English.
Sigh... okay im just going to simplify this man.
Having difficulty hitting 2 or 3 different keys in a second is not an issue regarding animation canceling nor does it compound any issue. That is simply the game. And those suffering from physical limitations have the unfortunate burden of figuring out ways to play around them. For this to even go anywhere, you need to accept the simple truth that animation canceling is not some elaborate multi button exercise in dexterity that would make *** umehara blush.
Its literallt just hitting 2 buttons every second.
So I don't think your understanding how difficult this can be. You line of thinking is push button A push button b.
In this case this for myself if it's in a slow interaction at 4-5 seconds I could do LA, Skill, BLK in rapid sequence probably, if this button I was hitting for the skill was exactly the same. But if I had LA,Skill, Block in a 2 second period rapidly between shift inputts in a nonset sequence it would be impossible. 3 actions occuring in sequence under 2 seconds while also doing everything else required to operate a toon. It's not like your just standing still doing this sequences. All allot of people want is to be able to reduce actions taken. For me personally if I could reduce the number of imputs per second I had to do by 1 I'd personally be ok but this may not be the case for others.
The issue this thought doesn’t take into account is the fundamental reason we have AC.
We need to be able to block when we need to block. The GCD ensures enough time has passed for the skill to fire which prevents exploiting the system. This game is not a simplistic design like WoW and FF as we require active defenses to survive on this game. Even more so in PvP than PvE.
Yes, that does require a higher skill level to do well on this game but that is probably part of the reason we choose ESO vs those overly simplistic MMORPG models like WoW and FF.
That's true. But the OP makes a note of that and provides a work around.
The developers ought to be able to add pauses to the code as it relates to abilities other than block and dodge that prevent subsequent abilities from being used until the animation completes. So the author's solution seems feasible to me.
There is already a system in place to manage and control AC so the OPs thoughts are unnecessary.
The confusion that OP seems to have is that the animation is the control or even standardized, because it is not. So to make it the control is to create a situation where every single skill has a different required time that needs to elapse that that is a poor design overall. So OPs suggestion is really just plain bad.
Even in overly simplistic games like WoW and FF the animation is not the control and is not even tied to the control. The GCD is the control just like it is in ESO
So in reality, no one can shorted the time required by the game for a skill to fire by using AC. Every instant skill requires the GCD to pass before AC can occur and every skill with a cast time will not fire if the required time has not passed before AC occurs. That is a very simple fact.
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satanio✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »So what is the general benefit from removing these mechanics?
Making things look nice and polished. If I don't use it, my fights are smooth, If I use it, fights look weird, character is doing half-somethings, - really it looks like it's possessed in a way. Just look at it, It's not really appealing for an eye xD. Hey, and I love when I'm running nearby the mob and just do some weird movement and the mob dies... it was me bar swapping some offensive ability.
I like eso for it's PvE encounters and that's why I'm staying. PvP and Combatwise not really my cup of a tea.1 -
SpiderKnight✭✭✭✭✭
✭I never AC, I always let the animation finish first, that's just the kind of guy I am.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »If animation canceling was to be removed the combat would be so boring. The one thing this game excels at is the combat. Taking away AC would dumb the combat down a lot. No thanks.
It's now part of the game. Intended or not, it's here to stay. Why do people dislike it anyway? I don't see there being any legit reason other than they can't do it very well. It's not going away, so I suggest people practice and learn how to do it.
This line of thinking is flawd because your assuming it can be learned to be autonomous. For some that's not the case and would like an alternative inorder to adapt.
So because some people can't do something - nobody should be able to?
You can play the game without animation canceling. Will you be as good at it as others? No. But you don't NEED to do it.
And most people calling for it aren't disabled - just lazy or bad at the game.
I can't speak for the lazy and I don't, but I never said remove it I said add another option for those who can't. That was it.
The option is to not so it. You don't NEED to apart from the very endgame content.
Sure, people will have an advantage over you in PvP but you can still play it. So the option is to just not do it...
So I paid 200+ so far on a game that no where does it say those with difficulty doing x,y,x may not be able to some content. No where does it say that. It does say something about epilepsy.
Here's the advertisement I'm most familiar with. Check out what "Play the Way Your Like" actually says.
I don't see a guarantee that you'll be able to complete all the content with top-tier DPS.
Or even a guarantee that you can complete all the content.
Generally speaking, I'm pretty sure most MMOs don't guarantee that ALL players, regardless of their ability to actually perform the game mechanics, can experience ALL of the content. I mean, when I bought Summerset, it did not come with a guarantee that I could jump into Vet Cloudrest +3 and complete it despite my honest inability to actually perform mechanics at the level required to complete that trial difficulty. I bought the opportunity to try to do so, sure, but not a guarantee of completion. If you find anything stating otherwise, please let me know, because I'd like a guaranteed Vet Cloudrest+3 completion without a carry, you know?
I have to be honest, I am very unconvinced by this argument of "I paid for it, therefore I should be able to complete all the content even if I can't perform the gameplay mechanics, or else ZOS should slap a disclaimer on it saying I can't."
Now, if there are other MMOs that allow use of adaptive macros in their TOS, it might be worth it for you to starting pointing to those examples as good models for ZOS to follow.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP has a good point, light attack weaving is difficult for the majority of players, and the main culprit is the animations in the game.
People can defend it as skill, but you’re fighting against the mechanics (animations) of the game. I’d say about 1 percent of players do it well, and someone’s chances of figuring it out on their own without coming to the forums or being told about it by guildies is close to 0.
I think the main people who’re defending it are those who put the time in to learn it, but ask yourselves if you think it’s fun? Light attack weaving/animation cancelling, inventory management, and boringly long guild quests are the main drawbacks of the game right now.
I'd agree that ZOS needs to do a better job of teaching players how to do a DPS rotation in general, but at least they did include this one somewhere in the game where new players or old players leveling new characters will see it.
Edited by VaranisArano on February 25, 2019 5:11AM1 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »If animation canceling was to be removed the combat would be so boring. The one thing this game excels at is the combat. Taking away AC would dumb the combat down a lot. No thanks.
It's now part of the game. Intended or not, it's here to stay. Why do people dislike it anyway? I don't see there being any legit reason other than they can't do it very well. It's not going away, so I suggest people practice and learn how to do it.
This line of thinking is flawd because your assuming it can be learned to be autonomous. For some that's not the case and would like an alternative inorder to adapt.
So because some people can't do something - nobody should be able to?
You can play the game without animation canceling. Will you be as good at it as others? No. But you don't NEED to do it.
And most people calling for it aren't disabled - just lazy or bad at the game.
I can't speak for the lazy and I don't, but I never said remove it I said add another option for those who can't. That was it.
The option is to not so it. You don't NEED to apart from the very endgame content.
Sure, people will have an advantage over you in PvP but you can still play it. So the option is to just not do it...
So I paid 200+ so far on a game that no where does it say those with difficulty doing x,y,x may not be able to some content. No where does it say that. It does say something about epilepsy.
as war as i know skills and lightattack has gcd. macros are very limited.
some people here must wear tinfoil hats.
Light attack are not on the CGD as far as I know
they are and they are checked server side otherwise ud see people speedhacking the *** out of this game. even if u put a sequence to cancel things into each other on a macro it wont fire of a lightattack after the skill cancel also wont fire of another skill becouse of gcd on skill so yeh putting multiple actions on ur mouse wont get u far.
this thread is just a huge waste of time.
Light attacks do not share GCDs with abilities. The reason LAs won’t go off until skill animations finish is because skill animations have priority over LAs
yes but LA share GCD with LA. its true that u can cancel LA to skill to block but then u have to wait untill u can do it again becouse LA and skill will be on GCD (on their own GCD)
I like to differentiate the two cooldowns since it can confuse people, or otherwise contribute to people who think animation canceling or weaving somehow circumvents the ability GCD, but yes that is accurate.
And if you block cancel an ability animation you risk cuttting your stam regen for 2s, which is why almost no one does that if at all possible. Bar swap canceling at a couple points in a rotation is streamlined and LA weaving is fairly intuitive along with now being taught through ingame tips.
I don't know about block but if you time your sprint right, you can gain benefit from the regen tick by releasing sprint just before the regen tick hits and then sprint again once the tick occurs. It's really useful for sustaining when you need to sprint around in PvP.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OP has a good point, light attack weaving is difficult for the majority of players, and the main culprit is the animations in the game.
People can defend it as skill, but you’re fighting against the mechanics (animations) of the game.
You're also fighting lag. So whether you're in or out of Cyrodiil, your main enemy stays the same.2 -
AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭SpiderKnight wrote: »I never AC, I always let the animation finish first, that's just the kind of guy I am.
Nice guys finish last
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thedude33✭✭✭✭✭skill should never be punished but encouraged...
if one is not good at a skill that someone else is much better at then observe said person, practice, and become skilled as well.
Pure skill is playing the game with the monitor off grasshopper.
It takes more than one cold day for a river to freeze a meter thick.0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have no issue at all with Animation Canceling. None. Leave it in game. It's fine as is. If ZOS tried to remove it then all kinds of things would be broken for a very long time.
Umpteen thousands of players have learned how to animation cancel and are either good at it or not so good. Older people may have some problem doing the physical gyrations on their keyboard, Mouse, Orb Weaver, etc and sorry to say but if they cannot do it we shouldn't make it so no one can do it.
I'm an old person at Social Security age and I have physical ailments in my hands (Arthritis). Do I want everyone to be gimped like me? Uh...sure! That is sarcasm. Heck no.
My advice to all those wanting Animation Canceling removed is to learn to live with it and play the game. It won't change your DPS that much. I suck at animation canceling and rarely get any Light Attacks in as well yet I have soloed Veteran dungeons. Hmmm....no Trial gear either. Just overland, dungeon dropped and crafted stuff. It ain't that hard in my opinion to do well in this game. Have fun everyone!4 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If I would be to choose clicking simulator, I would choose Stronghold Crusader over ESO anytime. I don't understand what lies beneath the argument "but this makes the combat so cool, it would be boring without it". Well, I find weaving and ac boring.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of ESO’s combat. It is not a strategy game, for one, nor does it involve button mashing. It’s an action RPG in which split second reaction times are rewarded. Skillful timing of abilities separates average players from excellent players. Utilizing action priority is part of that skill, as is situational awareness, timing, and cooperation within a group.
Action priority is necessary for fluid combat. If you find fluid combat within an action RPG boring, and point to a strategy game for comparison as something fun and engaging, I don’t believe you’ve chosen the right game genre to occupy your time.
@Jhalin How does la weaving counts towards "split second reactions", it's mechanical isn't it? Dodge rolls and block are situational and I agree that it makes sense for defensive abilities to have higher priority. What I don't understand is offensive aspect of animation cancelling and I would be happy if you can elaborate on this particular thing.
I assume you’re referring to Light Attack weaving. The offensive uses are simply a byproduct of prioritization. LA animations have to be overridden by abilities, primarily for defensive reason actually. Mag users can block and dodge roll yes, but their primary defense (up till Murkmire anyway) is Shields, which are only accessible on demand via abilities
Since all damage is instant, there’s no purpose locking players out of their defensive abilities to complete a LA that’s already had its damage calculated. If you couldn’t cast a shield immediately, or use a healing ability, or a buff skill, you will be stuck in situations where you can see your death coming and not be able to do anything about it because you’re stuck in an animation.
It is functionally impossible to only allow heals/shield/roll/block/buffs to have prioritization without doing the same for offensive abilities. And to remove all of that prioritization will kill the fluidity of combat, along with being incredibly frustrating being killed by things you by all means should have been able to avoid had that prioritization existed.
Edited for awful grammarEdited by Jhalin on February 25, 2019 6:23AM0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm going to quote myself. Thinking this is going to be my form response for this kind of thread.
I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding of terms here.
-- attack weaving and animation cancelling --
Some clarifications:- Weaving is firing an instant cast skill after a light attack, or triggering a skill during a heavy (which queues it to execute when heavy finishes).
- Animation cancelling is the cutting short of an animation by an overriding action such as bar swapping, dodge rolling, or blocking.
Weaving
This isn't taught in game explicitly, but most players do it unintentionally without realising they're doing it. I've seen it, explained it to a player whilst they did it unknowingly. It is intuitive, because you often see low level players who have few skills unlocked mixing up the skills on their bar with light or heavy attacks -- the game encourages it in the tool tips for certain skills too. What happens is that as players grow in confidence and unlock more abilities, they lean to rely on those more than their weapon under the assumption that abilities deliver the most damage (which they do at a cost of resource); light and heavy attacks are free damage (and you can enchant them for more free damage), it's foolish not to use them on cool down == intuitive. Rotations factor in weaving because of that free damage.
Animation Cancelling
For reactive combat, you have to be able exit out of an animation at any point. Image you couldn't block because you had to wait for your current skill animation to end, or couldn't dodge, jump, or swap to another weapon -- there would be threads on the forum demanding it! Attacks, skills and mitigation have a priority in which the game executes them, weapon attack animations are overridden by skill/ability animations; skill/ability animations are overridden by mitigation actions. This is logical and intuitive, and makes for fluid combat.
Skilled players make use of this priority to maximise the damage they output == intuitive.
People are under the false impression that animation cancelling allows them to beat the cool down, or do some arcane act of godly dps. The cool down timer is still ticking -- whether you do it or not. Here's the thing, skills trigger on button up (i.e. release), there is a window of ~1s in which no other skill can be triggered (this is commonly referred to as the GCD); cast animations can overrun that window by .1-.3s, so AC bar swap or tapping block allows you to avoid that overrun and queue up your next skill sooner. No black magic.
I will say this, not many people actually cancel every animation unless for a bar swap. If you look at Alcast, for example, and his rotations, if you imagine the bars next to each other, vertically for review: skills are assigned across them to be executed in a saw-tooth like rhythm. There is no 'cheating' going on, or broken mechanics, or glitching -- he (and any player who does this) is simply leveraging the combat system to its most potential and highest efficiency.Edited by mairwen85 on February 25, 2019 6:18AM3 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
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Give me, like, a 3 line summary at the end, ain't got time for a novel. Animation canceling is due to how animations work in general what with priority. Whether you like it or not (don't care which), it would take fundamentally changing the way animations trigger in the game to get rid of it, making it a different game, so it will not change.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can't help but feel that if we couldn't ani cancel, the same people moaning its a thing would be moaning that it wasn't.3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Is this a pvp thing? Or just a myth that’s been propagated by frustrated players? I’ve been doing end game PVE for a long time and I’ve never seen anyone animation cancelling their skills with block. Doing so would add zero DPS since skills are still on the same cooldown.
Light attack weaving between skills is certainly a thing, but is clicking left mouse button every 1 second really setting the bar too high? As for ping issues, I play on NA server with players from South America, Europe and Australia and they are some of the best DPS I know (certainly not struggling with weaving light attacks on 200-300 ping).
As for skills not going off if they’re not finished casting, this already exists. The most notable ones are Liquid Lightning and Blazing Spear, but I believe Endless Hail and Caltops behave the same way. Again, nobody block cancels, but these skills don’t fire if you try to bar swap too soon or have to dodge roll a mechanic. There is also a strange delay required to cast crystal fragments and assassins will, that can easily be messed up if your timing isn’t perfect. None of these example help level the playing field between the most and the least capable players. In fact it’s just the opposite, in order to use these skills reliably you have to build delays into your rotation that are fractions of a second. It would be better if these worked like other instant skills because then all players could use them without worrying about the cast failing.
Hopefully this clears up a few things, because there continues to be a lot of misinformation on this controversial topic. It’s not a conspiracy between the devs and the elitists to keep casuals down.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can't help but feel that if we couldn't ani cancel, the same people moaning its a thing would be moaning that it wasn't.
Honestly yeah. A big appeal of ESO is the fast paced combat. The slow, forced wait times of FFXIV and GW2, even WoW for the few days I tried it a decade ago, just put me off so much. It’s clunky and unfun to be stuck in these long animations, and they make you so vulnerable. They limit your movement and limit you ability to react. A mechanic coming up mid rotation will destroy the entire thing because you have to cancel the ability and its damage and lose the resources. It’s just plain awful for someone looking for fast paced combat.
No one would be happy getting stuck in an animation, and no one wants all of our skills to become the new “misses if you move one hair to the side” Uppercut.Edited by Jhalin on February 25, 2019 6:35AM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't help but feel that if we couldn't ani cancel, the same people moaning its a thing would be moaning that it wasn't.
Only if you removed it. If it wasnt there in the firstplace, people would think it is normal.
Look at Dark Souls. No animation cancelling there, and no torch-and-pitchfork mob demanding there should be.0 -
itsfatbass✭✭✭✭✭Its more than 41%. Lot of ppl didnt vote, because the poll had manipulative options, especcially for ppl who wanted to vote "no".
It's likely FARRRR less than 41% if you tally votes on both sides. Animation canceling is here. to. stay.~PC/NA~ Magblade, Tankanist, Healplar, Stamcro, Oakensorc, Healden, Tanknight ~PLUR~2 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I can't help but feel that if we couldn't ani cancel, the same people moaning its a thing would be moaning that it wasn't.
Only if you removed it. If it wasnt there in the firstplace, people would think it is normal.
Look at Dark Souls. No animation cancelling there, and no torch-and-pitchfork mob demanding there should be.
I’d say being able to dodge without first returning to a resting position would qualify as “animation canceling”, and having played Bloodborne, those game definitely don’t require you wait through entire recovery animation sequences before they let you dodge.0 -
commdt✭✭✭✭Guys. Animation cancelling do absolutely zero, nill, nothing. My friend tested it on his stam NB a year ago and he did absolutely same 51k parses with and totally without it.
Becauese yes, you can skip animation, but you cant skip global cooldown which is 1 second. Since all animations are below 1 second, you get nothing for skipping them. Just be done with this myth alreadyRawr0
