Do you think animation cancelling should be part of the game?

Royaji · February 2019

You would think that after 4 years anti-AC team will learn the difference between light attack weaving (which can be done with no AC whatsoever) and actual animation cancelling...

But nah, we don't need to understand what are we disagreeing with.

Rungar · February 2019

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

It makes the combat ugly.
Zos should include the light attack damage as a default when you use a skill which is not block casted and you are in the range for your weapon.

That's a terrible idea.

Good luck trying to beat VMA, HM trials and dungeons without animation cancelling. Good luck passing any of the dps checks in the game.

ZOS balances content with the assumption we're animation cancelling. They've done that for years. They'll never remove it (they can't) and everything has been scaled to assume it's being used.
TL:DR
L2P.

the cost of course is low player accessibility which i imagine is a very costly "feature" for zos. Doesn't seem worth it to have weaving (defensive cancelling is of no issue and adds to the game) considering the issues in this game all revolve around this one "skill".

idk · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

The answer is clearly yes because it is clearly part of the game and there are very logical reasons it is.

No one has provided a reasonable reason it should not be in the game and often demonstrate a lack of understanding why we have it. There is a solid GCD that must pass before any skill is fired and AC does not and cannot shorten that time.

haelene · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

Bias pole is bias.

I do think people can animation cancel without macros, but I don't think animation cancelling is a good thing especially in a game with this kind of lag. Just adds unpredictability and inaccessibility.

Note I am not talking about weaving. That is a separate thing entirely.

Knootewoot · February 2019

I don't like animation cancelling being part of the game myself.

I don't know if the game will get clunky if it was removed, because you cannot test it.

But...

- Yesterday i saw someone carrying a flag. He casted speed and went jumping sideways and got more speed that way then me on my full speel horse.
- I saw a lvl 28 who could run from Farragut to Ales without stopping for a breather. Also he had a constant white shield around him and entire raids could not kill nor even hit him.
- A saw 2 players just vanish in thin air and they were not NB nor were they using the psijic spell because even 10 seconds before that they were on the same spot fighting. If they used that skill they would port on the spot but with more resources.

This game really has way more issues to fix then to think about animation cancelling.

Ravena · February 2019

Just how much difference does ping makefor this? Does it really become impossible at higher latency?

Gravord · February 2019

Wha ta biased choices you named.

haelene · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

Ravena wrote: »

Just how much difference does ping makefor this? Does it really become impossible at higher latency?

I can't give you exact numbers or proof beyond my anecdotal experience, but I can certainly say that yes, latency certainly effects animation cancelling just like it does any piece of a rotation.

I'd be interested to see some actual numbers though to see how much it does, but I can't find any solid tests.

idk · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't like animation cancelling being part of the game myself.

I don't know if the game will get clunky if it was removed, because you cannot test it.

We do know the issues that would occur.

ESO requires active defense by everyone from tanks to dps to healers. Unlike games such as WoW, FF and SWTOR that have passives defenses and shielding we must be able to block and dodge any moment and not have a skill in the middle of firing get in the way.

For every skill there is a GCD that is required for the skill to be fired. For skills with a cast time this goes a little further and using fragments as an example it makes the issue very clear.

When casting frags if someone blocks before the required time the skill will not fire. If AC was not possible it would mean that anyone casting frags would locked out reacting to an immediate thread that required them to block or dodge if they wanted to survive. This would include many skills like 2H uppercut and more would put the player at risk if they used it.

The only real with AC is that some do not understand that the animation has nothing to do with the time required for a skill to fire and that every skill has a required time that must pass for it to fire. For most it is the GCD>

Thevampirenight · February 2019

Well I read on other threads that this is something they might not be able to fix easily. Given how they have done the combat system. I think they would have to do a total rework to prevent the use of light attack weave or animation canceling. Had it been something they could have fixed they would have already done so. There are some things that they can fix easily, and some things they cannot. This might be the main reason why they went ahead and made this a feature instead of something they fix and remove. Given they balance around this and make skills built around it don't count on them removing it any time soon. If they ever will, at this point they most likely won't because of limitations.. Like I said on this post a few comments back. They are adding in a tip for the load screen. One does not have to like it, just got to live with it. I don't think they will ever remove it. I would be prepared to see a lot more of it. Once the new update goes live and people see the new load screen tip.

Integral1900 · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

It is, I think we can all agree, a spectacular thing to watch a cancelling damage dealer in full flow... However, it is visually quite the most stupid thing to see, like a puppet having an anxiety attack 😕

haelene · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Well I read on other threads that this is something they might not be able to fix easily. Given how they have done the combat system. I think they would have to do a total rework to prevent the use of light attack weave or animation canceling. Had it been something they could have fixed they would have already done so. There are some things that they can fix easily, and some things they cannot. This might be the main reason why they went ahead and made this a feature instead of something they fix and remove. Given they balance around this and make skills built around it don't count on them removing it any time soon. If they ever will, at this point they most likely won't because of limitations.. Like I said on this post a few comments back. They are adding in a tip for the load screen. One does not have to like it, just got to live with it. I don't think they will ever remove it. I would be prepared to see a lot more of it.

It would be a nightmare to remove absolutely. I just wish things wouldn't have been designed around it in the first place. Alternatively, minimize the lag (which of course is also quite difficult because lag is not always in ZOS's control).

Basically we're stuck with it, but I personally don't like it.

TokenIntellect · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

Nope, nope, nope.

(Horrifically biased poll, BTW, but had to still vote "No" because even if the reasoning is completely wrong, AC is still a bad idea that ruins combat)

So here let's see:

Defensive AC is not entirely a bad idea; however, interrupting casting should either cancel the spell (a tactic plenty in lots of fantasy literature) or reduce the damage/impact to reflect how much was cast (50% done, 50% impact). It's like checking a swing in baseball, sometimes you might accidentally get a bunt but you can't swing for the fences and check your swing at the same time.
Offensive AC is just ridiculously stupid. It is entirely built on the idea of using the GCD for when an action begins to fire rather than when the next action should be possible. That it cancels the animation actually proves that this test is not met.
AC turns combat into an unenjoyable click fest where you are rewarded for your unthinking mechanical aptitude. I understand the dopamine hit from killing a previously difficult foe, but seriously cannot believe people actually enjoy being a human macro.
AC artificially inflates DPS.
AC may be negatively impacted by ping, hardware, and even platform.
and yes, some people may have physical difficulty with the level of coordination AC requires. It's not up to you to determine whether it's playable for someone else. That's for ZOS and ZOS dropped the ball.

Enough? In short: it isn't that people don't understand or need to git gud.

Rungar · February 2019

actually its quite simple to fix since only offensive animation cancelling ( light weave and bash) cause all the issues and both of these could be easily added to the global timer.

defensive animation cancelling is of no issue in this game and is not impossibly attached to offensive cancelling as some suggest.

eso without light weaving still plays lightyears faster than say final fantasy and they have like 5mil subscribers.

Eso is a vastly superior game in my expeience but cheezy stuff like light weaving turn people away from it.

WuffyCerulei · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

It helps to keep ESO a fast-paced game instead of slow attacks and cooldowns.

idk · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

Rungar wrote: »

actually its quite simple to fix since only offensive animation cancelling ( light weave and bash) cause all the issues and both of these could be easily added to the global timer.

defensive animation cancelling is of no issue in this game and is not impossibly attached to offensive cancelling as some suggest.

eso without light weaving still plays lightyears faster than say final fantasy and they have like 5mil subscribers.

Eso is a vastly superior game in my expeience but cheezy stuff like light weaving turn people away from it.

You seem to have attempted to separate AC into two halves in order to inaccurately state it would be simple to fix one half.

First of all, they are one, being able to block a skill to cancel the animation is because blocking is codes as a higher function. That is as simple of an example as can be provided that it is all one, not two separate halves.

Second. I really doubt you are aware of how ESO is coded to even begin to understand if anything would be easy for them to do.

It really helps to be accurate and I merely pointed out the quoted material is not accurate.

Rungar · February 2019

it helps to be truthful as well.

there is absolutely nothing stopping them from putting light weaving and bash on the global timer without affecting dodge or block or ultimate

Ectheliontnacil · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

Thx to everyone who voted!
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to make a biased poll/be condescending to players who disagree. I simply stated my opinion and can back up all of my claims (e.g. that AC doesn't require macros).

The main argument against AC, to the best of my knowledge, is that it's exploiting a bug and that Zeni was too lazy to remove it.
The main argument for AC is that it rewards skillful gameplay (offensively and defensively).
I put that in the poll options, so I don't see why ppl think the poll is heavily biased.

There is of course the valid point, that beautiful animations are removed from the game and that combat feels unimmersive (since players are just twitching basically).
But the equally valid counter to that, is that combat would look sluggish, you'd see no more LAs being used for the most part, making weapons feel useless. And spells etc are still largely visible.

So I didn't include the visual side of the discussion.

idk · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

Rungar wrote: »

it helps to be truthful as well.

there is absolutely nothing stopping them from putting light weaving and bash on the global timer without affecting dodge or block or ultimate

If you are replying to me, I was totally truthful and very accurate. The rest of the comment here seems very out of place since I clearly never ever said Zos could not make changes to LAs or AC.

However, it is clear such a change would require a heavy revamp. What you suggest is easy is innacurate.

Of course I do understand this game has a huge learning curve compared to pretty much every MMORPG that I have played and that is the reason there is a very wide spread between the ceiling and floor for DPS just as there is a very big difference between players who can survive much while others seem to die more often than they fire off a skill. I do not see that as reason or justification to eliminate AC in any manner and no one has provided a logical reason for such changes.

Nemesis7884 · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

it obviously shouldnt be....fix dps scaling and proper mechanics in other ways thatn through exploitation

Rungar · February 2019

there is no one against defensive animation cancelling which consists of block and dodge roll. Its an integral part of the game and is what makes the game feel fast and responsive. No ones against ultimate because it cant be used every 0.5 seconds.

light attack spam which is offensive clockwork animation cancelling, which has the capacity and more importantly perception for macroing, comes across as buttonmashing , is what most dont like.

it is important not to confuse these as they are completely separate.

barney2525 · February 2019

TARAFRAKA wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

It makes the combat ugly.
Zos should include the light attack damage as a default when you use a skill which is not block casted and you are in the range for your weapon.

Learn to do it and it pays off with higher dps and rewarding competition. Or refuse to learn and complain about your low dps and being killed in pvp on the forums.

ZOS balances content with the assumption we're animation cancelling. They've done that for years. They'll never remove it (they can't) and everything has been scaled to assume it's being used.
TL:DR
L2P.

idk · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

Rungar wrote: »

there is no one against defensive animation cancelling which consists of block and dodge roll. Its an integral part of the game and is what makes the game feel fast and responsive. No ones against ultimate because it cant be used every 0.5 seconds.

light attack spam which is offensive clockwork animation cancelling, which has the capacity and more importantly perception for macroing, comes across as buttonmashing , is what most dont like.

it is important not to confuse these as they are completely separate.

Once again you are inaccurate to even suggest one is separate from the other if you actually understand the system. I pointed this out above and to say the same thing with different words as I quoted here is still just as inaccurate.

I am not going to continue this silly argument as it is clear to anyone who understands the design that you are wrong. Good day.

Edit, that you are wrong the two are separate.

Rungar · February 2019

to add to this the light attack goes against all the principles of the game.

block costs you your stamina regen ( and while blocking i can cast any non cast time/channeled skill. i.e anything on the global timer)
dodge costs you stamina

heavy attack is partially balanced in that it takes longer than the global timer.

whats the cost of a light attack besides your fingers? Its upside down for this skill to be the main determiner of what you can and cant access content wise in this game.

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

I'm indifferent to it.

I've learned it myself. And it does raise the game's skill ceiling.

But it also looks stupid and isn't necessarily a fun mechanic. It's also one of the biggest gripes outsiders have with this game (the combat is generally the #1 reason why most people drop the game after trying it if you go by complaints on /r/MMORPG).

I don't think getting rid of it would help unless they reworked the entire combat system though.

GC0 · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

It's actually hilarious how many people selected the other option lmao. Like how hard is to learn a basic thing in the game? Someone mentioned it made the combat buggy, no it doesn't. It makes it feel somewhat more fast paced and actually fun.

srfrogg23 · February 2019

Yes. As animation cancelling requires skill and rewards you with higher dps.

I really wish people wouldn't tunnel-vision on DPS all the time.

Animation cancelling makes it possible for people to react defensively to mechanics instead of having to avoid doing things while they wait for mechanics to happen. It keeps the combat fast and smooth.

zaria · February 2019

idk wrote: »

Knootewoot wrote: »

I don't like animation cancelling being part of the game myself.

I don't know if the game will get clunky if it was removed, because you cannot test it.

We do know the issues that would occur.

ESO requires active defense by everyone from tanks to dps to healers. Unlike games such as WoW, FF and SWTOR that have passives defenses and shielding we must be able to block and dodge any moment and not have a skill in the middle of firing get in the way.

For every skill there is a GCD that is required for the skill to be fired. For skills with a cast time this goes a little further and using fragments as an example it makes the issue very clear.

When casting frags if someone blocks before the required time the skill will not fire. If AC was not possible it would mean that anyone casting frags would locked out reacting to an immediate thread that required them to block or dodge if they wanted to survive. This would include many skills like 2H uppercut and more would put the player at risk if they used it.

The only real with AC is that some do not understand that the animation has nothing to do with the time required for a skill to fire and that every skill has a required time that must pass for it to fire. For most it is the GCD>

This, AC handles defensive mechanisms, it also let you abort an spell with casting time to cast another.

Now you could say that light attack weaving should not be in the game. I assume this is that most imply then they talk about animation canceling. its good argument against LA weaving, it hit players with high ping and make it harder to do decent damage. However damage from LA has been increased, best way to reduce LA weaving impact would simply to make LA do low damage.

Davor · February 2019

I find it funny how Zenimax considers it a "feature" now, but Bethesda would ban people for using and exploiting "bugs"

Starlock · February 2019

No. It's exploiting and can only be done with the help of macros.

Neither poll option really reflects me.

Animation cancelling SHOULD be in the game. However, if an animation is cancelled, the ability should not fire. That is, the only reward a player gets for blocking their attack is BLOCKING. Their sword doesn’t get to magically hit in spite of not actually coming in contact with the enemy (because that’s just stupid).