What if we have Khajiit 2-4% more Crit damage?

Azyle1 · February 2019

Would that help a little and put them on the Orc/Dunmer level for stam and Alter level for Mag?

As it stands ( stamwise ), Orc and Dunmer hit HARDER with critical hits than a Khajiit. Obviously this is due to 258 weapon damage and roughly 1k - 1200 more stam.

I don't feel there is any logic behind this. So would a 2-4% increase do the trick? I assume 5% is too much, or atleast, in my twisted brain, that seems to be the case.

HuawaSepp · February 2019

Would help but crit dmg is a value which is tied to the actual meta.
If for example new BIS set combinations + mundus etc. give you a 45% critical strike chance, khajiit is again inferior to dunmer even with 15% crit dmg.
It's a shame but yeah.

zaria · February 2019

its more fun with the new buffed shadow passive who is higher than the Khajiit passive.
Now this is not very effective on Khajiit while general bis so Khajiit will end up with lower crit damage multiplier than others

Honestly I would rather have more sustain or resources than more crit damage, another option is splitt change and damage.

Azyle1 · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

its more fun with the new buffed shadow passive who is higher than the Khajiit passive.
Now this is not very effective on Khajiit while general bis so Khajiit will end up with lower crit damage multiplier than others

Honestly I would rather have more sustain or resources than more crit damage, another option is splitt change and damage.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno

LiquidPony · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

its more fun with the new buffed shadow passive who is higher than the Khajiit passive.
Now this is not very effective on Khajiit while general bis so Khajiit will end up with lower crit damage multiplier than others

Honestly I would rather have more sustain or resources than more crit damage, another option is splitt change and damage.

The Shadow is totally effective on Khajiit.

I feel like a broken record.

Take a non-Khajiit with 70% crit chance and an 80% crit damage modifier, The Shadow is (with 7 Legendary Divines):

1+(0.7*0.19825)/(1+0.7*0.8) = 8.89% damage increase

Take a Khajiit with the same setup:

1+(0.7*0.19825)/(1+0.7*0.9) = 8.51% damage increase

Consider a 60k parse with 50k worth of critable damage, and add the Shadow to it.

For a non-Khajiit, that 60k with The Shadow is: 64448
For a Khajiit, that 60k with The Shadow is: 64257

You can also, if you think about it, adjust your CP slightly, pull some out of Precise Strikes/Elfborn, and make up part of the very small difference.

The thing that everyone ignores here is the other side of the coin. Khajiit have crit damage buit-in so adding crit damage is slightly less beneficial than for other races. The same thing is true of Weapon Damage for Orcs and Dunmer.

Take a Khajiit with 3500 Weapon Damage (buffed with Major/Minor Brutality) and 30000 stamina. An Infused Berserker enchant gives a damage boost of (assuming 100% uptime):

1+(10.5*452*1.3)/(30000+10.5*3500) = 9.24% damage increase

Now race-change to an Orc, call it 31250 max stamina and 3835 Weapon Damage (3500 + 258 * 1.3):

1+(10.5*452*1.3)/(31250+10.5*3835) = 8.62% damage increase

Now, Orcs and Dunmer *do* have more raw DPS than Khajiit (by 1.25% or so). But IMO this is intentional. Khajiit have some built-in sustain, Orcs and Dunmer do not. Compared to an Orc, Khajiit have 85 base stam regen (on a stamblade that's ~160 stam regen). Compared to a Dunmer, Khajiit have +825 health (a Dunmer running Gold food will in a lot of cases probably want to use a health glyph since they're going to have maybe ~15.5k health) and 85 base stam regen. Against an Orc you trade 1.25% damage or so for a little bit of extra sustain. Against a Dunmer you trade 1.25% damage or so for a little bit of extra sustain and 825 more health.

Arciris · February 2019

No one said it wasn't effective... it is just not AS effective and your numbers show exactly that.

The thing is Khajiit not only got nerfed (their score in parses show that) but most importantly, they lost what made them a FUN race to build around - the Crit chance offers far more build diversity that the Crit damage increase.

Also, no one is saying that only a few races can DPS. Of course all races can DPS (in that sense they are all effective). It's just that some are more effective than others.

For my part I would drop the buff in resources for Khajiit,, or the (small) sustain, or even both, just to have the Crit Chance back.

WrathOfInnos · February 2019

2% would be good IMO. 4% would be overkill.

Colecovision · February 2019

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

Emma_Overload · February 2019

Arciris wrote: »

No one said it wasn't effective... it is just not AS effective and your numbers show exactly that.

The thing is Khajiit not only got nerfed (their score in parses show that) but most importantly, they lost what made them a FUN race to build around - the Crit chance offers far more build diversity that the Crit damage increase.

Also, no one is saying that only a few races can DPS. Of course all races can DPS (in that sense they are all effective). It's just that some are more effective than others.

For my part I would drop the buff in resources for Khajiit,, or the (small) sustain, or even both, just to have the Crit Chance back.

This is the best argument. In my opinion, the extra spell crit% would have opened the door to many interesting magicka builds. For example, Scathing Mage becomes a MUCH more viable set when your crit is high. Now we will never see those builds... such a shame!

LiquidPony · February 2019

Colecovision wrote: »

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

I'm going Khajiit personally. Maybe Orc is going to be 1.5k higher DPS or something at the very top-end of the range but personally I like the flexibility of that extra sustain.

But if you look at the parses that LIko and Seb and Warfire did, I suspect that the Hodor's of the world will be rolling Orcs for their raid stamblades. But I'm not that good and I'm not going to have perfect support uptimes and all of the bells and whistles in every raid so I like the buffer added by Khajiit stam regen.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the Khajiit crit damage bonus. It's tuned just about right. If anything it seems like a tiny bump to 11% would be appropriate. But if they had 2,000 max stam they'd be right in line with Orc/Dunmer. The problem here is just that Orcs are overloaded, as you say, if Orcs didn't have the +1,000 health bonus you'd probably want to run a health glyph, which would more-or-less equalize Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit stam DPS.

Colecovision · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

I'm going Khajiit personally. Maybe Orc is going to be 1.5k higher DPS or something at the very top-end of the range but personally I like the flexibility of that extra sustain.

But if you look at the parses that LIko and Seb and Warfire did, I suspect that the Hodor's of the world will be rolling Orcs for their raid stamblades. But I'm not that good and I'm not going to have perfect support uptimes and all of the bells and whistles in every raid so I like the buffer added by Khajiit stam regen.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the Khajiit crit damage bonus. It's tuned just about right. If anything it seems like a tiny bump to 11% would be appropriate. But if they had 2,000 max stam they'd be right in line with Orc/Dunmer. The problem here is just that Orcs are overloaded, as you say, if Orcs didn't have the +1,000 health bonus you'd probably want to run a health glyph, which would more-or-less equalize Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit stam DPS.

That's refreshing to hear say you'd actually go in with Khajiit. I do wish they would balance orc by changing the 1k to something very pvp specific, but maybe khajiit is in a better place than I realized.

Kulvar · February 2019

Or...
+3% Crit Chance
+6% Crit Damage

LiquidPony · February 2019

Colecovision wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

I'm going Khajiit personally. Maybe Orc is going to be 1.5k higher DPS or something at the very top-end of the range but personally I like the flexibility of that extra sustain.

But if you look at the parses that LIko and Seb and Warfire did, I suspect that the Hodor's of the world will be rolling Orcs for their raid stamblades. But I'm not that good and I'm not going to have perfect support uptimes and all of the bells and whistles in every raid so I like the buffer added by Khajiit stam regen.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the Khajiit crit damage bonus. It's tuned just about right. If anything it seems like a tiny bump to 11% would be appropriate. But if they had 2,000 max stam they'd be right in line with Orc/Dunmer. The problem here is just that Orcs are overloaded, as you say, if Orcs didn't have the +1,000 health bonus you'd probably want to run a health glyph, which would more-or-less equalize Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit stam DPS.

That's refreshing to hear say you'd actually go in with Khajiit. I do wish they would balance orc by changing the 1k to something very pvp specific, but maybe khajiit is in a better place than I realized.

From some of the best players in the game: https://i.imgur.com/ycrYM2e.jpg

On a stamblade, Redguard/Bosmer at ~78k, Khajiit at ~79k, Orc/Dunmer at ~80k (when using the same setup). I suspect maybe the gap could be closed a bit by adjusting Khajiit CP, but either way they're all so close that I don't see the big deal.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

No one said it wasn't effective... it is just not AS effective and your numbers show exactly that.

The thing is Khajiit not only got nerfed (their score in parses show that) but most importantly, they lost what made them a FUN race to build around - the Crit chance offers far more build diversity that the Crit damage increase.

Also, no one is saying that only a few races can DPS. Of course all races can DPS (in that sense they are all effective). It's just that some are more effective than others.

For my part I would drop the buff in resources for Khajiit,, or the (small) sustain, or even both, just to have the Crit Chance back.

This is the best argument. In my opinion, the extra spell crit% would have opened the door to many interesting magicka builds. For example, Scathing Mage becomes a MUCH more viable set when your crit is high. Now we will never see those builds... such a shame!

I don't know that "MUCH more viable" is really accurate. Scathing Mage would be very slightly better, almost certainly still not better than BSW. Think about it ... let's say you have 50% crit chance and you do 100 Direct Damage attacks in a row. On average you're going to proc Scathing 10 times. Now say you've got 58% crit chance. On average you're going to proc Scathing 11.6 times. This is not a huge difference.

On the other hand, consider that Mother's Sorrow is stronger for a Khajiit with the new bonus. Also consider that many PvE sorcs still use Mechanical Acuity, which benefits considerably more from the new passive than the old. You can also consider Mechanical Acuity for other builds (like a magden).

Azyle1 · February 2019

@LiquidPony

Always make me feel better about the Khajiits.

Arciris · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

I'm going Khajiit personally. Maybe Orc is going to be 1.5k higher DPS or something at the very top-end of the range but personally I like the flexibility of that extra sustain.

But if you look at the parses that LIko and Seb and Warfire did, I suspect that the Hodor's of the world will be rolling Orcs for their raid stamblades. But I'm not that good and I'm not going to have perfect support uptimes and all of the bells and whistles in every raid so I like the buffer added by Khajiit stam regen.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the Khajiit crit damage bonus. It's tuned just about right. If anything it seems like a tiny bump to 11% would be appropriate. But if they had 2,000 max stam they'd be right in line with Orc/Dunmer. The problem here is just that Orcs are overloaded, as you say, if Orcs didn't have the +1,000 health bonus you'd probably want to run a health glyph, which would more-or-less equalize Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit stam DPS.

That's refreshing to hear say you'd actually go in with Khajiit. I do wish they would balance orc by changing the 1k to something very pvp specific, but maybe khajiit is in a better place than I realized.

From some of the best players in the game: https://i.imgur.com/ycrYM2e.jpg

On a stamblade, Redguard/Bosmer at ~78k, Khajiit at ~79k, Orc/Dunmer at ~80k (when using the same setup). I suspect maybe the gap could be closed a bit by adjusting Khajiit CP, but either way they're all so close that I don't see the big deal.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

No one said it wasn't effective... it is just not AS effective and your numbers show exactly that.

The thing is Khajiit not only got nerfed (their score in parses show that) but most importantly, they lost what made them a FUN race to build around - the Crit chance offers far more build diversity that the Crit damage increase.

Also, no one is saying that only a few races can DPS. Of course all races can DPS (in that sense they are all effective). It's just that some are more effective than others.

For my part I would drop the buff in resources for Khajiit,, or the (small) sustain, or even both, just to have the Crit Chance back.

This is the best argument. In my opinion, the extra spell crit% would have opened the door to many interesting magicka builds. For example, Scathing Mage becomes a MUCH more viable set when your crit is high. Now we will never see those builds... such a shame!

I don't know that "MUCH more viable" is really accurate. Scathing Mage would be very slightly better, almost certainly still not better than BSW. Think about it ... let's say you have 50% crit chance and you do 100 Direct Damage attacks in a row. On average you're going to proc Scathing 10 times. Now say you've got 58% crit chance. On average you're going to proc Scathing 11.6 times. This is not a huge difference.

On the other hand, consider that Mother's Sorrow is stronger for a Khajiit with the new bonus. Also consider that many PvE sorcs still use Mechanical Acuity, which benefits considerably more from the new passive than the old. You can also consider Mechanical Acuity for other builds (like a magden).

All that is nice but you're only talking about DPS role.
Crit chance is more useful for healing and to some extent, even for tanking.
Crit chance opens up for more build diversity, for stam, mag DPS roles andd for healer and tank roles as well.
Crit damage is just boring.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Arciris wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

@LiquidPony - I've heard that record every time and I quit caring about the crit change on my main as a result. I also think the health bonus for khajiit makes up for the low end stam bonus and they work out close enough for all but one race.

Let me just ask what race would you use for vMA stamblade? Same question but for trials stamblade? And if you pick orc for both or either, would your answer change if the 1k health were removed and replaced with nothing at all.

I'm going Khajiit personally. Maybe Orc is going to be 1.5k higher DPS or something at the very top-end of the range but personally I like the flexibility of that extra sustain.

But if you look at the parses that LIko and Seb and Warfire did, I suspect that the Hodor's of the world will be rolling Orcs for their raid stamblades. But I'm not that good and I'm not going to have perfect support uptimes and all of the bells and whistles in every raid so I like the buffer added by Khajiit stam regen.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the Khajiit crit damage bonus. It's tuned just about right. If anything it seems like a tiny bump to 11% would be appropriate. But if they had 2,000 max stam they'd be right in line with Orc/Dunmer. The problem here is just that Orcs are overloaded, as you say, if Orcs didn't have the +1,000 health bonus you'd probably want to run a health glyph, which would more-or-less equalize Orc/Dunmer/Khajiit stam DPS.

That's refreshing to hear say you'd actually go in with Khajiit. I do wish they would balance orc by changing the 1k to something very pvp specific, but maybe khajiit is in a better place than I realized.

From some of the best players in the game: https://i.imgur.com/ycrYM2e.jpg

On a stamblade, Redguard/Bosmer at ~78k, Khajiit at ~79k, Orc/Dunmer at ~80k (when using the same setup). I suspect maybe the gap could be closed a bit by adjusting Khajiit CP, but either way they're all so close that I don't see the big deal.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

No one said it wasn't effective... it is just not AS effective and your numbers show exactly that.

The thing is Khajiit not only got nerfed (their score in parses show that) but most importantly, they lost what made them a FUN race to build around - the Crit chance offers far more build diversity that the Crit damage increase.

Also, no one is saying that only a few races can DPS. Of course all races can DPS (in that sense they are all effective). It's just that some are more effective than others.

For my part I would drop the buff in resources for Khajiit,, or the (small) sustain, or even both, just to have the Crit Chance back.

This is the best argument. In my opinion, the extra spell crit% would have opened the door to many interesting magicka builds. For example, Scathing Mage becomes a MUCH more viable set when your crit is high. Now we will never see those builds... such a shame!

I don't know that "MUCH more viable" is really accurate. Scathing Mage would be very slightly better, almost certainly still not better than BSW. Think about it ... let's say you have 50% crit chance and you do 100 Direct Damage attacks in a row. On average you're going to proc Scathing 10 times. Now say you've got 58% crit chance. On average you're going to proc Scathing 11.6 times. This is not a huge difference.

On the other hand, consider that Mother's Sorrow is stronger for a Khajiit with the new bonus. Also consider that many PvE sorcs still use Mechanical Acuity, which benefits considerably more from the new passive than the old. You can also consider Mechanical Acuity for other builds (like a magden).

All that is nice but you're only talking about DPS role.
Crit chance is more useful for healing and to some extent, even for tanking.
Crit chance opens up for more build diversity, for stam, mag DPS roles andd for healer and tank roles as well.
Crit damage is just boring.

In your opinion.

In my opinion, Crit Damage is a much more unique bonus that is much harder to come by.

Want to increase your crit chance? Light Armor passives, Medium Armor passives, NB class passive, CP Perfect Strike passive, CP Spell Precision passive, Minor Prophecy, Minor Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Precise weapons, Twin Blade & Blunt daggers, The Thief, and about 1492 different sets in the game all offer you ways to increase your critical chance.

Want to increase your crit damage? Minor Force, Major Force, Precise Strikes, Elfborn, The Shadow, NB class passive, Templar class passive, and 1 not very good set (Archer's Mind). And for a healer, many of these sources of increased crit damage don't have any impact on your crit heals, making the new Khajiit passive almost entirely unique in that regard.

And "build diversity" isn't decreased, it's just different. Before, Templars and Nightblades and setups with high critical damage modifiers and lower critical chance were optimal for Khajiit. Now, it's the opposite. Sorcs, DKs and Wardens are better and setups with high critical chance and lower critical damage modifiers are optimal for Khajiit.

And it's not a big difference either way, with the old passive or the new.

Funny thing is, Khajiit have had 8% crit chance forever and I never remember hearing anyone say "this passive sucks because it makes using (Advancing Yokeda, Daggers, Precise weapons, etc.) less effective than on other races", but that's the exact logic being used here.

Arciris · February 2019

No it is not.

If it was really the same, how come 8% Critical chance made Khajiit top DPS in optimized raid setting while 10% Crit Damage makes them average?
And you contradict yourself when you classified Archer's Mind as a weak set

If Crit Damage was so valuable, Archer's Mind would be BIS.... but it's not.

Plus you're forgetting about healing and tanking roles, and heavy armor users in PvP.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Arciris wrote: »

No it is not.

If it was really the same, how come 8% Critical chance made Khajiit top DPS in optimized raid setting while 10% Crit Damage makes them average?
And you contradict yourself when you classified Archer's Mind as a weak set If Crit Damage was so valuable, Archer's Mind would be BIS.... but it's not.

Plus you're forgetting about healing and tanking roles, and heavy armor users in PvP.

No one said the two bonuses are "the same". Read more carefully.

Archer's Mind is only 5% base crit damage. It's not weak because of the type of bonus it grants, it's weak because of the amount. You're being silly.

And as it pertains to healing (and to tanking), since Summerset none of Major/Minor Force, Templar/NB class passives, The Shadow, or Archer's Mind had any impact on your crit healing. Only your Precise Strikes/Elfborn CP can increase your crit heals. Therefore, the new bonus is a far more unique and hard to acquire since it is literally the only way you can increase your crit healing modifier aside from CP.

Arciris · February 2019

You know what other bonus in game is rare and difficult to acquire?
3m Stealth Detection. Ask Bosmers how thrilled they are to have the privilege to have such an unique bonus.

I don't want to make a list on how Crit chance have been allowing Khajiit to be creative with their builds, while optimizing them.
I can guarantee you that the list of optimized builds around Crit damage is a lot shorter.
I'm talking about optimized, not viable.
Pretty much anything is viable. Even Stam healers with bows are viable. it's just not optimized.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2019

@LiquidPony the game flattens that 19.825% from the shadow to just 19%

Colecovision · February 2019

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO can you explain that more fully?

LiquidPony · February 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@LiquidPony the game flattens that 19.825% from the shadow to just 19%

Right, which further reduces the gap mentioned earlier.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2019

Colecovision wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO can you explain that more fully?

The game rounds all non whole damage percentages down, or truncates them. This is the cause of the whole number jump points in cp.

I agree with you @LiquidPony, people are going nuts over very small differences. Though I would support giving the khajiit 13-14% and I think that would be more inline with the vision that ZOS has laid out, as Going by what ZOS has said, that a five piece is 2.31* a set bonus and a mundai is 1.85 of a set bonus, the khajiit racial ought to be 13 or 12. As they gave basically all other damage dealers two set bonuses as a racial, be 2 max magic or double weapon/spell damage. Using the only set bonus that gives a crit hit damage increase and that does not use minor force, archer mind, which gives up to a 15% increase, that would give khajiit racial a value of 13%, as 15/2.31 is 6.5 for single set bonus and 6.5*2 is 13 or close to 12. Going by the mundas, 13%, 13/1.85 is ~7 and 7*2 is 14.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO can you explain that more fully?

The game rounds all non whole damage percentages down, or truncates them. This is the cause of the whole number jump points in cp.

I agree with you @LiquidPony, people are going nuts over very small differences. Though I would support giving the khajiit 13-14% and I think that would be more inline with the vision that ZOS has laid out, as Going by what ZOS has said, that a five piece is 2.31* a set bonus and a mundai is 1.85 of a set bonus, the khajiit racial ought to be 13 or 12. As they gave basically all other damage dealers two set bonuses as a racial, be 2 max magic or double weapon/spell damage. Using the only set bonus that gives a crit hit damage increase and that does not use minor force, archer mind, which gives up to a 15% increase, that would give khajiit racial a value of 13%, as 15/2.31 is 6.5 for single set bonus and 6.5*2 is 13 or close to 12. Going by the mundas, 13%, 13/1.85 is ~7 and 7*2 is 14.

Archer's Mind has a very specific proc condition to get that 15%, though.

By the same token you could say that since Siroria grants up to 600 Spell Damage, racial passives which grant Spell Damage should be 519 rather than 258. Obviously that's not going to be the case because we have basic set bonuses to use as a baseline.

But again I think crit damage is just such a rare bird that it's hard to apply the same logic here. It isn't even consistent internally if you compare the value of Archer's Mind to The Shadow (which is overpowered with its new value but that's beside the point).

My thought process would be to try to determine the percentage damage increase of various bonuses and try to line up critical damage with that, to determine what a critical damage basic set bonus would look like. I think it'd probably be 5 or 6%. At 60% critical and 75% critical damage, 5% additional critical damage would give you roughly the same damage increase as 833 critical chance. At 50% critical and 80% critical damage, 6% additional critical damage would give you roughly the same damage increase as 833 critical chance. So working from that base, I'd say anywhere from 10-12% is a reasonable number.

The one thing I will say is that in my own parses and elsewhere, I see Khajiit being maybe ~1-2% behind Orc/Dunmer. If you increase their crit damage from 10% to 12%, you're giving them a 2% damage increase to 70% of their DPS (at ~82% weapon crit and about 86% critable damage). So at 12%, at least on a stamblade, Khajiit basically do the same DPS as Orcs/Dunmer but they also have the built-in regen. Just a thought.

I would guess that because of the modest regen values, ZOS intended them to have very slightly lower maximum DPS. Could be wrong.

WrathOfInnos · February 2019

@LiquidPony @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I like the approach you are both taking here, I’ll add my 2 cents.

Hypothetically, if a standard set bonus was assumed to be 5% Crit damage, then the Shadow Stone (at 1.85 set bonuses) would be 9%. This is the value on live, and numerous tests have shown it to underperform all other options. This value would explain why Khajiit is sitting at 10% (it’s their 2 set bonus racial, like 258 weapon or spell dmg, 7% Mag Cost reduction, or 258 stam regen). However, just like the 9% Shadow Stone this is too weak to be balanced.

If we go with the number 6% as a standard Crit Dmg bonus, then the Shadow Mundus would be 6 x 1.85 = 11%. This is right between the overpowered Shadow on PTS (13%) and the underpowered on live (9%). It also means that a double set bonus racial on Khajiit would be 12%. These numbers seem about right to me, as Khajiit will be closer to other races. Also the decision about Mundus Stone will be tough again vs the “never use Shadow” on live and the “always use Shadow” on PTS.

In reality I would argue for a Shadow Stone base value of 11.9% given the way ESO rounds numbers. This way every piece of divines adds something, as shown below.

0 div, 11.9% x 1.000 = 11.9% = 11%
1 div, 11.9% x 1.075 = 12.7% = 12%
2 div, 11.9% x 1.150 = 13.6% = 13%
3 div, 11.9% x 1.225 = 14.5% = 14%
4 div, 11.9% x 1.300 = 15.4% = 15%
5 div, 11.9% x 1.375 = 16.3% = 16%
6 div, 11.9% x 1.450 = 17.2% = 17%
7 div, 11.9% x 1.525 = 18.1% = 18%
8 div, 11.9% x 1.600 = 19.0% = 19%

They could still advertise it as being “11%” since that is actually the effect with no divines. This just sits better with me, since I don’t like the idea of putting on a piece of divines and getting literally no gain from it.

Of course this math only works for gold divines, but I kinda like that too. Gives a little more reward for not leaving armor purple.

LiquidPony · February 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@LiquidPony @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I like the approach you are both taking here, I’ll add my 2 cents.

Hypothetically, if a standard set bonus was assumed to be 5% Crit damage, then the Shadow Stone (at 1.85 set bonuses) would be 9%. This is the value on live, and numerous tests have shown it to underperform all other options. This value would explain why Khajiit is sitting at 10% (it’s their 2 set bonus racial, like 258 weapon or spell dmg, 7% Mag Cost reduction, or 258 stam regen). However, just like the 9% Shadow Stone this is too weak to be balanced.

If we go with the number 6% as a standard Crit Dmg bonus, then the Shadow Mundus would be 6 x 1.85 = 11%. This is right between the overpowered Shadow on PTS (13%) and the underpowered on live (9%). It also means that a double set bonus racial on Khajiit would be 12%. These numbers seem about right to me, as Khajiit will be closer to other races. Also the decision about Mundus Stone will be tough again vs the “never use Shadow” on live and the “always use Shadow” on PTS.

In reality I would argue for a Shadow Stone base value of 11.9% given the way ESO rounds numbers. This way every piece of divines adds something, as shown below.

0 div, 11.9% x 1.000 = 11.9% = 11%
1 div, 11.9% x 1.075 = 12.7% = 12%
2 div, 11.9% x 1.150 = 13.6% = 13%
3 div, 11.9% x 1.225 = 14.5% = 14%
4 div, 11.9% x 1.300 = 15.4% = 15%
5 div, 11.9% x 1.375 = 16.3% = 16%
6 div, 11.9% x 1.450 = 17.2% = 17%
7 div, 11.9% x 1.525 = 18.1% = 18%
8 div, 11.9% x 1.600 = 19.0% = 19%

They could still advertise it as being “11%” since that is actually the effect with no divines. This just sits better with me, since I don’t like the idea of putting on a piece of divines and getting literally no gain from it.

Of course this math only works for gold divines, but I kinda like that too. Gives a little more reward for not leaving armor purple.

This sounds about exactly right. Wish I could give 2 Insightfuls.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · February 2019

zaria wrote: »

its more fun with the new buffed shadow passive who is higher than the Khajiit passive.
Now this is not very effective on Khajiit while general bis so Khajiit will end up with lower crit damage multiplier than others

Honestly I would rather have more sustain or resources than more crit damage, another option is splitt change and damage.

Agreed. Khajiit sustain is pretty bad, so i'll take that over improper crit bonuses

Mudcrabber · February 2019

TIL about The Shadow being rounded down after divines. So I won't lose as much as I thought if I stay with The Mage.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2019

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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2019

. Archer's Mind has a very specific proc condition to get that 15%, though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365904/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-1-5-horns-of-the-reach

Hence why I said up to 15%. The set bonus for spell damage is set against julianos.

The bonus for having 5 pieces is approximately 2.31x the value of a one-piece bonus. For example, you can get a set bonus of 129 Spell Damage, or a 5-piece bonus of 299 Spell Damage on Julianos.

Some sets, such as Necropotence, have conditional bonuses. Since it’s harder to get these bonuses, we are allowing them to provide up to a 25% increase over other sets. This is why Draugr Hulk now gives 2540 max resource and Necropotence now gives 3150.

but since you bring a good point, 15%/2.8875 (25% more the 2.31) is ~5.2% for a set bonus. so i can see the math that zos used to get there.

i would also be on board with what @WrathOfInnos said.

Mudcrabber wrote: »

TIL about The Shadow being rounded down after divines. So I won't lose as much as I thought if I stay with The Mage.

all percent based damage calculations are rounded down, all cp and used to be swords 2.5%, now getting buffed to a full 3% so that single swords are not as bad, though still the worst weapon to use.

Juhasow · February 2019

Good job @LiquidPony . It's rarity lately that someone is doing some math even basic one before posting comments here on forum.