Is eso too much based on maths instead of taste?

idk · February 2019

Pretty much any worthy MMORPG is based on math.

If OP has an issue with this them ESO is for sure the wrong type of game for them. Heck, even simplistic games like WoW and FF are based on math.

Michae · February 2019

TBH I'm just lost when I think about different builds, gear, transmutations etc. I just want to play the game but sometimes its just a chore. I already have a day job, I don't need another one.

mocap · February 2019

your personal taste could real pain to others. Sure you can roleplay dlc vet dungeons with 8k dps, but you will get kick fast.

Also, current DPS meta (since 2014 lol) is a superior rotation, not math.

aaisoaho · February 2019

Math tastes normal - with a hint of tangent.

Now to be serious, the math part of builds really only count in harder PvE content. When you maximise your efficiency and minimise your shortcomings, you make the run easier not only for you, but your group also. And the math there isn't that hard, you do not need to know about imaginary unit or linear algebra. Most critical part of PVE DD math is "how much do I need to add penetration to get to the 19200 mark?"

In PVP, you have much wider range of builds available and capable to perform the activity you are trying to do. You want to be able to kill as many players as you can in a small amount of time? Well you have tons of different DD builds to choose from, bow/bow ganker, bleed builds, mag builds... Sieging? Breaching? Healing? Purgebot?

Cążki · February 2019

Ottma wrote: »

For me elder scrolls games were about huge immersion and I liked to play a role in such a strange world.
Now eso for me is far less like the other es games (of course it's a mmo..)
But still I feel maths are way too important in this game.
Balance is way to pvp-orientated and eso takes the choices of taste and makes them become choices of "if you wanna do this, you have to have this and that skill and that stat"
I mean we always have to keep ourselves "informed" or do the maths on ourselves before a new build can be done if it's supposed to be a good one. Why can't it be about taste and have a good outcome as well? Why so many variables? It's not "hard" to find out about the right cps and the best skills.. But still one can totally mess up if he isn't informed about the maths and that is something I don't feel good with
I mean, look at the current changes to racial passives and how the crowd reacts.. It's about maths
A game should be about fun and not be like something you need to do more for if you want to be fit or "viable"
So what do you guys think?

Edit: I really like this game for years now and I don't wanna whine. I'm just kinda worried or you could maybe say the maths are like sorrows to me sometimes

Zos are rally lazy and very slowly realize that, there is a group of people like PvP is getting bigger and bigger because this is the only way of endgame and those ppl really want from a game level of taste like it should be ! Also math destroying feelings...sometimes I feel I'm on Forex or kind of currency market yup I'm totally with you, ESO is kinda to drakkar racing. You never now at all your stats from pasivs sets coz it's to much of course you could take sheet of paper and pen but cmon is it taste ? PvP should be Like in guild wars, if you want to PvP, you can create character only for that competition only, and all gear is in UI window and you don't need to farm set to just try a tactic with it.. PvP is unbalanced and mechanism and style how you're preparing to PvP is like and taste like you should just a go away and go back to pve...please Zos reapir first activity finder on EU server and lags !

RavenSworn · February 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

Nothing stops you from doing what you want to do...especially in PvP. The question after that will be how well you can use what you decided to do and whether or not you like it's shortcomings.

Personally, I don't care what anyone does in PvE as long as they don't leech and try. It's not the end of the world for me when I tank or heal if a boss wipes me from DPS check and it has to be beaten in another way. Also not the end of the world if a run takes longer.

I'm never arrogant and think there's nothing to learn or see in a dungeon I've done multiple times, or push the blame for a wipe on anyone else. Every time I play the game I'm always observing closely and learning something new, especially in combat situations.

For me that's more fun than a fast run...and that knowledge becomes very useful outside of dungeons as well.

I hope I can run a dungeon with you someday. Great players aren't always around.

Cążki · February 2019

Read this, this thread is about of activity finder bugs on EU and also PVP that should be changed and options for PvP.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459667/d-u-n-g-e-o-n-f-i-n-d-e-r-d-e-f-e-c-t-i-v-e-mega-thread-before-buy-elswyer-come-and-write/p1

Mudcrabber · February 2019

There's always math, no matter the game, whether they give you the numbers or try and hide them.

I enjoy the math part of it. I have a lot of spreadsheets and scripts.

It's a hobby and a crutch. I have lazy rotations. I'm bad at weaving. I play the wrong races. I use overland/crafted gear. I don't group much. I do mixed content on the same characters (just swapping to impen armor). But my builds are optimized around that.

Hippie4927 · February 2019

Math in games makes my brain hurt! I don't play games to do math (that's too much like work!)......I play for entertainment/fun. When I see someone post all the numbers for a certain build or skills rotation, I want to read it and understand it, but then my brain starts to bleed and I have to run away!

dan958 · February 2019

It is only about maths and stats if you choose to play that way. I'm not looking to get the best DPS or stats possible, so I don't dive too much into the figures.

aetherial_heavenn · February 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Math in games makes my brain hurt! I don't play games to do math (that's too much like work!)......I play for entertainment/fun. When I see someone post all the numbers for a certain build or skills rotation, I want to read it and understand it, but then my brain starts to bleed and I have to run away!

Isn't it nice that others do the maths and post the best builds for specific needs and that there are build makers and cp testers and add ons. So you can look up best gear combos. And use web pages to try out builds. Or just don't worry about stuff you don't enjoy.

ESO provides for the whole spectrum.

It's not binary. It's not a yes/no gate. It grows with our character development and mental and physical acuity.

It's great training for older brains.

Imagination and maths married together is a wonderful thing.

sudaki_eso · February 2019

Just play as you want, you dont have to follow the meta to have fun and accomplish stuff in this game. I would even say that except for some vet hm trials you can do everything else with almost every build.

Princess_Ciri · February 2019

maths is for nerds

Danikat · February 2019

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

edit: and you know? There's people like this in singleplayer TES games. I remember folks complaining about how broken certain combinations of Skyrim skills were (especially when you force-ground them to max ASAP) and how they totally removed all challenge - but when people said "Well, how about not doing the Big Broken Combo That Annoys You?", they'd scream about how dare anyone suggest they "self-nerf" and not play a game at Maximum Possible Power!)

You know what's strange? I have absolutely no problem using builds I know for a fact are sub-optimal in RPGs, but I really couldn't do the equivalent in other games.

The worst for me was actually a series of puzzles games on the Nintendo DS called Professor Layton. I realised early on I could save the game, figure out a puzzle using as many tries and hints as I needed then re-load my saved game and do it on the first try for the maximum reward. It wasn't nearly as enjoyable that way and felt like cheating, but because there was absolutely no consequence for doing it I felt like I'd be stupid not to. In the end I traded the game in because I just couldn't enjoy it either way. (Luckily I'd gotten staff discount when I bought it and it was stupidly popular at the time so the trade in value was almost the same as what I'd paid for it.)

I'm not sure why I feel differently about it depending on the genre. Maybe it's because I'm used to using 'bad' builds in RPGs (I started playing them when I was a kid and didn't have a clue what I was doing - it felt like a breakthrough when I realised a half-giant was always at being a barbarian than an elf in Eye of the Beholder). Or maybe it's because RPGs don't usually have obvious right answers - even when someone works out a perfect build there's often debate over whether it's actually better than other options. Or because they're more about the story than simply completing the game and getting the best score/rating/whatever possible.

I assume some people are the same but with different games, maybe they have to find and use the best possible combination in an RPG but don't care about getting the best time in a platformer or whatever.

Kikke · February 2019

Every RPG game is bases on math, even TES.

Dont know were to start? Tons of premade formulas on these forums that can get you started.

Dont want to do math? Follow build guides where someone already did the math or dont cry about not being able to do vet trials. Easy as that tbh.

lolli42 · February 2019

Its like any other mmo or RPG in general
The fact, that you have more options, because of the free skill combinations, makes it more complicated, but in any game, ppl tend to find the max dps and play after guides and not their feeling^^

DjMuscleboy02 · February 2019

You aren't forced to play anything unless you want to push score in PvE content or play PvP competitively. You can do everything else in the game just about however you want to. Sure some things make it easier, but playing how you want is very much doable. Not sure why this has to keep being said.

Nestor · February 2019

If your only source of information on builds are the forums, then yes you have to force your self into some Meta Build. Some people like to show off their "knowledge" of the game by parroting builds that someone else came up with. Some like arguing minutia of what goes into a DPS parse on a training dummy. All well and good if your goal is to get a good dummy score or competitive vet trials scores.

For everything else, just about any reasonable build will allow you to do any content in the game. Vet Maelstrom Arena may impose some build requirements, but I have seen a lot of different builds get through that place.

Should you be inspired by the build sites out there? Yes. Should you learn how some skills work better with other skills? Yes. Should you learn how some gear can help the way you like to play? Yes. Should you be dictated by the build sites? No. Instead, take the knowledge and ideas and put together something that works for you

It is more important to understand the elements of the game and how you can make them work for how you play it. That build will be better for you than any copied build out there.

SirPaws · February 2019

This is a really interesting topic and one about a subject I've been a bit too vocal about among friends of late. I've been following the racial passive changes and the various opinions around that, and have been known to say "this game is too maths-driven." Yet I have to admit that's a bit of reductionism and not quite my exact sentiment.

See, one of the things I think is lacking is meaningful choice as it relates to character creation and I was hoping the racial changes would bring that into the game. As it stands, choosing what race you want to be tends to cater to the end-game meta and those who want to enjoy that aspect of the game. That's all fine and fair, those who enjoy that should still be able to pick the race that best suits their hobby.

What I feel is missing, and I scratch my head about its non-presence, is meaningful choice to the new and casual player. Ultimately, what race one picks when choosing a character doesn't matter in the majority of the game's content. I won't lie and pick random numbers, but I'm pretty confident that a casual player can spend countless hours questing, doing delves, and even tackling dungeons and world bosses without really struggling no matter their race.

So I sort of ask myself, "if the majority of the game can be enjoyed no matter my race and competitive end-game content isn't my thing, why do my racial choices tend to represent that aspect of the game rather than the content I do enjoy?" That is to say, what makes my Khajiit feel different to playing a Dunmer on a casual level?

To a new player, I fear they are encouraged towards a certain path, to scarifice creativity and imagination in favour of something more optimal. They really want to play a Bosmer Druid, for example, but their initial choices puts them off that idea. If that player decides they only enjoy story and casual group content, they will have sacrificed their inspiration in favour of a more magically-inclined race for no reason other than fear of handicapping themselves in future.

My initial reaction to the Altmer race change was one of delight! The idea that using a class skill to reestore stamina or magicka made me really want to roll a stamina-based Altmer. It's completely non-meta and I won't see the benefit of that racial change now, but it's inspiration and imagination - things far more valuable to me than optimisation.

I started to brainstorm what would be meaningful choice to a new or casual player. Why would they deliberatley make the choice to sacrifice a character concept in favour of what the game implies they should play, and what could prevent that from happening without ever losing the benefit an end-game player would gain?

I think the biggest problem is that there is a huge strugglebus for players who hit Champion Levels. Like, a huge gulf seperates a freshly minted level 50 character and one who is CP300+. At that point the player knows a bit more about what they want to do, the content they enjoy, but the game kinda lets them down a bit. The questions they have, such as how to increase their dps or what gear to wear, aren't answered by the game but instead outsourced to the community. They want to be the best they can be so turn to who they perceive is the best for answers. However, sometimes those answers aren't what they need to hear or only increases their anxiety and struggle. If I turn to who I perceive is the best, my answer could be "you're the wrong race for a start and you need to wear Perfected Relequen."

It's like, from the very first moment a new player rolls a character they are funnelled towards something they may never have wanted. I feel that could be resolved by giving them more meaningful choice at that early stage, something more tangible than mathematics that also encourages them to pursue their imagination and creativity. Maybe if something cosmetic was unique to each race all players could then enjoy that race? The player wanting their Bosmer Druid, for example, could benefit from that race having the tracker emote come with their Wood Elf choice - something that defines the race, makes it fun and provides meaningful choice, and yet doesn't impact the game in any substantial way.

I didn't intend to go off at a tangent there ^ Just went with it. I don't think the game is too much based on math as much as I think there is a lack of meaningful choice to a new or casual player, coupled with a sense that they should favour optimisation over inspiration which comes from a mixed-message inherent within the game itself.

eliisra · February 2019

I like the flexibility. Really dislike it in other mmos, where stats gets placed automatically each level and only 1-2 sets being viable endgame and no room to theorycraft at all.

Think all the choices is what makes ESO somewhat unique. Obviously leads to a lot of mistakes in the beginning, but once you know the basics it can be something that improves your gaming experience.

Only place in the game where you're limited freedom-wise is hardest or most competitive PvE. Even in PvP you can run around with a "special people" build and still have fun.

Ottma · February 2019

Wow I didn't expect so much feedback
I'm very happy for my choice to make this poll
Many of your replies really made me think about focus and there were so many statements that were really insightful
As I was trying to say I don't think the maths in this game are extraordinarily hard or the game should be easier.. And maybe maths was the wrong word to say it.. Of course maths is everywhere and I know and I like that there are people who are attracted and bring us advance.. Maybe "too much calculating variables" would have said it better.. I felt like I have to do those calculations or let someone else do it and use his knowledge to be able to sustain in the game.. Fact is I'm intrigued by endgame content but I'm afraid to start cause I feel I'm not good enough and don't wanna do maths to fix it cause I feel like I never reach that 35k dps mark 😅 maybe I should just have started instead of thinking to much haha
I even started hating the new racial changes before realizing I would never feel the difference.. That's why I wanted to find out if my focus kinda shifted to the wrong direction
And really you guys made me think about it and stated good aspects I think about differently now
Thanks for all your replies
I guess I really kinda got scared and let me being kept of what I wanna do because I listened to statements and orientations I don't feel good with
Reading the comments made me wanna meet you in game really 😊
Let's have fun together

Mayrael · February 2019

1. There is more math in endgame PvE than PvP.
2. I play mostly PvP, thus I build around my play style not around maths.

Varana · February 2019

It's a game played on a computer. Maths is the only thing a computer can do.

(Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

)

It's a combination of various factors, I think.

First, ESO is an MMO. That is a fundamentally different kind of game from a single-player game. In a single-player game, the endgame is when you have reached max level or played through the story. In a single-player game, I find a level cap frustrating, esp. if it hits well before the end of the story. In ESO, that's where the game for most people begins (if they even bother with story), and many players rush through levels as fast as humanly possible.
And the content is designed around that.

Second, regularly browsing the forums or similar sites is tainting the perspective. People who post on forums, have websites, or do video guides (like the youngsters do these days ;P ) are the ones who care about the maths. You can have similar discussions with any decent RPG - "what class whould I choose for Minsc, and should I use the Flail of Ages?" Some people have fun with that, but it's not the only way to have fun.
Also, it gives you a distorted picture. People whine on this forum all the time, blowing stuff completely out of proportion. Latest example, the changes to races. If you vaguely stick to magic-inclined races for magicka users and physically inclined races for stamina users, you won't go wrong unless you're in the top 1% or so. And for most of the content, even that distinction is not set in stone.

Third, it depends on what "end-game content" is for you. vTrial leaderboard runs? Yes, do the numbers, and follow the meta. (Not necessarily to the letter.) But that is content that was explicitly designed for number-crunching competitive play. You can play normal trials and even some vet trials with less-than-perfect numbers, and similarly for dungeons.

And fourth, gear is one thing, and others will crunch the numbers for you. Player skill is equally as important - knowing mechanics, executing a rotation, grouping adds and keeping taunt while staying alive, reacting to emergencies and keeping up buffs. Practicing that will get you very far.

VaranisArano · February 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

1. There is more math in endgame PvE than PvP.
2. I play mostly PvP, thus I build around my play style not around maths.

Yep.

The math that tends to matter most in PVP is how happy you are with your K/D ratio versus the other guy's.

IME, player skill makes a much bigger difference on the outcome of fights.

BigBragg · February 2019

I want to see taste PvP, the guy with the coolest character wins!

Tandor · February 2019

Maths is the basis of combat and skill balancing in any game. The problem with it mainly comes when some players delve into it too deeply and become obsessive about it. For most players, however, it's just something that goes on unnoticed in the background.

DTStormfox · February 2019

Math = objective
Taste = subjective

Math is measurable and predictable. With math, one can create finite options.
Taste is unmeasurable and unpredictable. With taste, one would have infinite options.

You cannot make combat or a game based on subjectivity. End of discussion.

Ottma · February 2019

DTStormfox wrote: »

End of discussion.

It's that end of discussion because your comment didn't quite get the point I guess..
Sorry but how is that supposed to help with what we're talking about?

The forum really taints haha

Anrose · February 2019

Ottma wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

End of discussion.

It's that end of discussion because your comment didn't quite get the point I guess..
Sorry but how is that supposed to help with what we're talking about?

The forum really taints haha

I think what he’s getting at is that the game can not be balanced around looks the coolest or feels the most fun. The game is balanced around what is effective, which is going to need the maths to back it up.

DTStormfox · February 2019

Anrose wrote: »

Ottma wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

End of discussion.

It's that end of discussion because your comment didn't quite get the point I guess..
Sorry but how is that supposed to help with what we're talking about?

The forum really taints haha

I think what he’s getting at is that the game can not be balanced around looks the coolest or feels the most fun. The game is balanced around what is effective, which is going to need the maths to back it up.

Indeed, that was the point I was trying to make.