Argonians are useless race (4.3.4) and for approximately for the next 2 years

Anyron · February 2019

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

So why should anyone take argonians as their race when there are much better choices? Argonians are nowhere even 2nd or 3rd choice! THEY ARE BACK AT BOTTOM WHERE THEY WERE FIRST 3 YEARS!

So argonians survived countless cycles in Black Marsh as last race but they did it. ZOS finally killed this race.

Aliyavana · February 2019

Dunmer will still find them useful

Iskiab · February 2019

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

Anyron · February 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

Did you even bother to read my post? Mainly that first block of text

Kulvar · February 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

Argonians lost the +5% Incoming Healing. Resourceful is at 87% of what it was.
Imperials got a new Red Diamond that is basicaly 75% of the efficiency of PTS Resourceful, but spread overtime and not relying on potion while having a cost reduction on everything. Imperial have more Health and Stamina.
Khajiits have tri-stat recovery and have more Stamina while slightly less Health (difference is only 175).
Redguards have the best Stamina sustain and more Stamina
Orcs heal themselves while having more Health and Stamina
Nords generate ultimate while having defensive bonuses

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Kulvar wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

Argonians lost the +5% Incoming Healing. Resourceful is at 87% of what it was.
Imperials got a new Red Diamond that is basicaly 75% of the efficiency of PTS Resourceful, but spread overtime and not relying on potion while having a cost reduction on everything. Imperial have more Health and Stamina.
Khajiits have tri-stat recovery and have more Stamina while slightly less Health (difference is only 175).
Redguards have the best Stamina sustain and more Stamina
Orcs heal themselves while having more Health and Stamina
Nords generate ultimate while having defensive bonuses

Argonian nerf is perfectly fine and must for balance of game.Argonian is so op when compared to other races similar to orcs in PTS.
Same goes for every race. Aroginian still best in slot for healer. Test it out first. Can an highelf ,khajit tank ? Can a nord dps ? Still nords very good in PVP.

Imperial and bosmer need slight buff. Highelf numbers are fine but need need adjustment. Orc needs serious nerf. They are on par even more op than argonian in live server.
Only useless race now is bosmer which cannot fit any role. L2P . Thread closed.

Kulvar · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Argonian nerf is perfectly fine and must for balance of game.Argonian is so op when compared to other races similar to orcs in PTS.
Same goes for every race. Aroginian still best in slot for healer. Test it out first. Can an highelf ,khajit tank ? Can a nord dps ? Still nords very good in PVP.

Imperial and bosmer need slight buff. Highelf numbers are fine but need need adjustment. Orc needs serious nerf. They are on par even more op than argonian in live server.
Only useless race now is bosmer which cannot fit any role. L2P . Thread closed.

The only game balance issue with Argonian is Resourceful in PvP, they nerfed everything else without reworking Resourceful and now Argonian is useless for every PvE role.

And they're not even good at Healing.
Breton have better sustain so they can gear full Spell Damage and be better heal than Argonians.
Altmer and Dunmer have bonus to Spell Damage and will heal better than Argonians.
Khajiit have bonus +85 Magicka Recovery and +10% Critical Healing, making them similar to Argonian while being able to perform well in other roles.
And some people are even tempted to say that Nords will be better healers than Argonians on some fight where utility is more needed that raw heal numbers with their Ultimate generating passive for warhorn.

Koronach · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Kulvar wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

Argonians lost the +5% Incoming Healing. Resourceful is at 87% of what it was.
Imperials got a new Red Diamond that is basicaly 75% of the efficiency of PTS Resourceful, but spread overtime and not relying on potion while having a cost reduction on everything. Imperial have more Health and Stamina.
Khajiits have tri-stat recovery and have more Stamina while slightly less Health (difference is only 175).
Redguards have the best Stamina sustain and more Stamina
Orcs heal themselves while having more Health and Stamina
Nords generate ultimate while having defensive bonuses

Argonian nerf is perfectly fine and must for balance of game.Argonian is so op when compared to other races similar to orcs in PTS.
Same goes for every race. Aroginian still best in slot for healer. Test it out first. Can an highelf ,khajit tank ? Can a nord dps ? Still nords very good in PVP.

Imperial and bosmer need slight buff. Highelf numbers are fine but need need adjustment. Orc needs serious nerf. They are on par even more op than argonian in live server.
Only useless race now is bosmer which cannot fit any role. L2P . Thread closed.

Maybe you should L2R.

To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom. We wanted to expand the horizon for choice and present players with a self-reflecting question of “What is my playstyle or ideal build?”, providing options to help reach that individual answer. Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level.

I don't see this freedom if you think we should only heal. That is totally not what they said in that paragraph I pasted.

Silver_Strider · February 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

They basicly reverted the reduction to the potion passive to where it was before PTS. They were the best race for tanking and healing pre-patch, I don’t see much changing. Healers have options now, that’s it.

It went from a 1k nerf to a 600 nerf, hardly what I'd call reverted; it wasn't even reverted by half the value lost so I don't know how you can argue otherwise. In terms of Tanks, Argonian were a top choice because Nords sucked and Imperial was just alright but that is no longer the case. Both offer group utility, higher base resources, more natural bulk in the case of Nord and in the case of Imperial, comparable sustain while Argonian lost 5% healing received. In terms of Healers, Breton absolutely destroys any and all competition, bar none. Before, it was at least a close race between Argonian, Breton and Altmer but now there's just no comparison. Breton has more damage, more sustain and comparable Heal numbers to Argonian so not a top pick there either. Basically, it's a choice for 2nd place healer, with Damage from Altmer/Dunmer vs Sustain on Argonian. If anything, ZOS eliminated Healer choices by making Breton the undisputed best healer race.

Nothing you said is true so please stop spreading false information around, there's enough streamers and YouTubers doing that as it is.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · February 2019

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Kidgangster101 · February 2019

Anyron wrote: »

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

So why should anyone take argonians as their race when there are much better choices? Argonians are nowhere even 2nd or 3rd choice! THEY ARE BACK AT BOTTOM WHERE THEY WERE FIRST 3 YEARS!

So argonians survived countless cycles in Black Marsh as last race but they did it. ZOS finally killed this race.

Bro no one will ever take you seriously when you talk about high elf being better healers because they can equip lich LOLOLOLOLOL you know argonian can equip that garbage set that should never be worn right? Lololololololol

Nords as a healer? Maybe you should read more before you talk about them. Nords need to get hit to gain that ultimate........ If you are standing inside damage on purpose in a trial to gain slight ultimate you need help. Argonians are fine stop crying.

Imperial is still absolute trash in sustain check the numbers it's been calculated that we are worse than argonian

frozzzen101 · February 2019

Unfortunately this is ZoS balancing at its finest. First they take from something that is overperforming then they buff underperforming basically flipping the scales on their heads.

I do not think Argonian will get any buffs in the future until suits tell them it's time to sell new batch of race change tokens, which due to community outrage might take years. Honestly it's sad that paid professionals cannot deliver better balance than randoms posting on forums.

let's examine this.
Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing.
Lies, lies, lies. You are pidgeonholing Argonian into role he never excelled at losing many people's character identity and efficiency.

Equalize the overall power that each race provides by using our set bonus efficiency system, which compares the total amount of power that a bonus provides under equal terms.
Yeah, equalize that 2% healing done with 129 spell and weapon damage hybrid races get. Would you like to exchange your 129 spell damage and 2000 mag on your Altmer for 6% healing done? Yeah, didn't think so. It's quite evident how some set bonuses have extremely limited use and others versatile but they are being counted as equals.

Retain and enhance the unique feeling and gameplay patterns that each race allows.
Yes, dunmers have retained their fire affinity. Argonians have retained their sturdy tank/brawler identity, Altmers are stamina toons for some reason?

Improve the sense of progression that the racial passives provide when leveling up.
QoL thingie for newcomers is nice but not relevant at the endgame pov.

Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
Like Dunmer fire affinity and stealth racials for sneaky races? Like Altmers being expert mages? Like Argonians not being immune to poisons?

Honestly, I know developers aren't stupid. They know exactly what people want. At first when Summerset was announced Cloudrest item sets were bunch of unimaginative proc sets and you could completely ignore the trial as far as loot was concerned. Guess what? In span of one patch we got 4 fantastic sets to use, and 3 absolute bis for magdps stamdps and healers just so people cannot ignore it. Devs know what people want. And what they don't want.

Anyron · February 2019

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Argonians are not even close to be good. Recent nerfs meybe wasnt big, but buffing other racials means argonians are now good for nothing in every role this game has.

Their main problem and source of everything bad is Resourceful passive which looks good but in most cases it is useless.
Even if you count resourceful as good passive, there is only 1k max magicka which is less than on other races and 6% healing done which is better than altmers/ dunmers +250spell damage only when you have 4500+ spell damage unbuffed which is sad. Noone has that number.

So how we are now?

Healer ( worse than)

Altmer - because 2k magicka and 250 spell damage which is better on short fights and if you equip lich, that limitation is gone
Breton - their magicka sustain and extra 1k max magicka makes them superior in both healing and damage to all other Magicka races.
Dunmer - same thing like altmer, more max magicka and spell damage

Only who is weaker than argonians in healing are cats - but if you make crt healing build they are even better

Damage ( worse than)
Only stamina races here are worse magicka dps here, obviously i dont bother to write here which magicka races are better ( all of them).

Tanks (worse than)
Nords - their damage resistance and 500 extra in resource makes them better, unlimate generation is good too
Imperials- their new red Diamond passive makes them on par with argonians, but extra 1k health and 1k stamina makes them much better in tanking
Redguards - even when this is pure stamina race, their sustain is much better than all argonian resources from passive counted together. Cost of skills and over 9,5k stamina per minute is too much.

So why should anyone take argonians as their race when there are much better choices? Argonians are nowhere even 2nd or 3rd choice! THEY ARE BACK AT BOTTOM WHERE THEY WERE FIRST 3 YEARS!

So argonians survived countless cycles in Black Marsh as last race but they did it. ZOS finally killed this race.

Bro no one will ever take you seriously when you talk about high elf being better healers because they can equip lich LOLOLOLOLOL you know argonian can equip that garbage set that should never be worn right? Lololololololol

Nords as a healer? Maybe you should read more before you talk about them. Nords need to get hit to gain that ultimate........ If you are standing inside damage on purpose in a trial to gain slight ultimate you need help. Argonians are fine stop crying.

Imperial is still absolute trash in sustain check the numbers it's been calculated that we are worse than argonian

I would gladly, any time swap argonian passives for Imperial

Who said Nord healer? Its nowhere in my post

Could you tell me how argonians are ok? I was that kind to write it to my post, why they are bad. "argonians are ok" isnt proof they are ok

Also your lololo reaction is quite funny. Like 5years old funny

Kulvar · February 2019

frozzzen101 wrote: »

I do not think Argonian will get any buffs in the future until suits tell them it's time to sell new batch of race change tokens, which due to community outrage might take years. Honestly it's sad that paid professionals cannot deliver better balance than randoms posting on forums.

And some of them are investing a lot of time doing a real job without being paid to theorycraft + test each change.

Banana · February 2019

Looking like one is the only downfall.

xaraan · February 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

Dunmer will still find them useful

cpuScientist · February 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

Dunmer will still find them useful

Damn it took me a while to get that

Strider__Roshin · February 2019

Nords are just as useless don't worry

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf. I dont think ZOs going to buff argonians in near future apart from tweaking numbers.
Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP. It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now. Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races. If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time. L2P . Thread is already closed.

Faulgor · February 2019

The problem is that it's too late. We only get one more patch before this goes live, and the changes for that patch are already done. Argonians were balanced compared to live instead of the other races on PTS, and it shows.

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf. I dont think ZOs going to buff argonians in near future apart from tweaking numbers.
Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP. It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now. Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races. If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time. L2P . Thread is already closed.

Are you lost? This is the PTS forum.

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

It's a shame that ZOS wasted an opportunity to balance all the races and instead just shifted the meta around. That's not progress.

Arciris · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf. I dont think ZOs going to buff argonians in near future apart from tweaking numbers.
Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP. It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now. Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races. If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time. L2P . Thread is already closed.

Ah! Ignorance is bliss!
Sincerrely, an AD Argonian. For the Queen!

Seraphayel · February 2019

Daus wrote: »

Nords are just as useless don't worry

This perception is just wrong. Not everything has to be viewed from a DPS perspective (this counts for every non-DPS race).

phantasmalD · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP.

The only part of your comment that is actually valid.
You are just spouting words without providing support for your argument, based on your post, you never played argonian and just read it online that they were OP and jumped on the argo bashing train.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf.

Yes, that's why 100% of the player population plays as argonian, argos totally aren't the least picked race, no siree.

It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now.

Yeah, because there are soooo many poison and disease damage abilities, this was a huuuge problem before.
It's not like there are only 5 skills for the two status effect combined, one of them being the most buggy and hated skill in the game.
And it's not like Defile is bypassing the immunity anyway, noooo.

Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races.

Tanking is not just about surviving and healing is not just about healing. Both roles need to be able to provide buffs to their team. Argos have no passives that help them in that regard so they can't be BiS for either roles.
Even on current live Bretons were the BiS for healers thanks to their superior amount of magicka and cost reduction.

Hybrid DPS is a joke but if anyone seriously want to put one together than they are going to use Pelinal's Aptitude which makes any other sets or passives that buff both type of damage moot.
Clever Alchemist+infused potion jewelry is garbage, literally only decent on tanks (if tanks could afford caring about damage), for any other role it's massively inferior to other options.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Actually I ran CA on an argonian stamblade until I got bored of him. Of course, with speed pot glyphs (no infused jewelry yet). The weapon/spell dmg is higher than 345, because the set does includes a 129 wpn dmg as a base, so it is 446 wpn/spell dmg.

He was taking that into count. 653*15/45 = 217 + 129 = 346

Also, do you know what else has 129 damage bonus? Spell Strategist (times two actually). And Burning Spellweave. And Silk of the Sun. And literally every popular damage set.

And with infused jewelry I think it easily gets over 500 wpn/spell dmg (I haven't tested it yet). I don't think it is a bad set.

For that 15 second potion time reduction you are giving up 522 (3x174) damage or 507 (3x169) magicka recovery.
Just think that over. You are giving up 522 to get 109 from your set. You are essentially at -413 damage.
If you go infused you are loosing 2.6k+ magicka (which is also further ~300 dps lost I believe), or whatever other bonuses you run.

Tho I guess it would be unfair of me to mention how your recovery improves. Essence of Spell Power restores 7582 magicka.
7582/45 = 169/s
7582/30 = 253/s
+84/s which equals to 168 recovery. So you are using three glyphs to get the effect of one.
4000/45 = 88/s
4000/30 =133/s
+45/s extra recovery from argonian passive.

So for giving up 522 (3x174) damage or 507 (3x169) magicka recovery (buffable stats) you get 109 spell damage and 258 recovery (unbuffable). That's a net loss even on an argonian.

Potion speed might be worth it if you are using tripots. Maybe? But not as a PvE DD or healer using their relevant potions.

For completeness sake let's see what you get if you go all in.
All in is 24 seconds (15*1.6), so you can drink a potion every 21 seconds.
Damage: 653*15/21 = 466 - 217 = +249
7582/21 = 361/s -169/s = +192/s
4000/21 =190/s - 88/s = +102/s

So +249 damage and +294 recovery. For loosing the upper mentioned stats AND 2.6k+ raw resources.
Don't think it worths it, you just about break even with what you are loosing from the jewelry glyphs but you give up even more resources to do that. AND unlike your jewelry glyphs, this recovery can't be buffed further.

If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time.

Most suggestion that were put forward included nerfing or removing healing done or the potion passive so nobody was asking for pure buffs.

Silver_Strider · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf. I dont think ZOs going to buff argonians in near future apart from tweaking numbers.
Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP. It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now. Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races. If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time. L2P . Thread is already closed.

I stopped reading at Clever Alchemist as its clear you got this misinformation from someone else and have never actually tested any of this and are just spewing nonsense at this point. Argonians are only BiS Tanks because all other races offer nothing worthwhile for Tanking, which has been changed in PTS as now both Nord and Imperial offer group utility on top of several other changes that make them better suited for Tanking than Argonian. Argonians were TIED for BIS Healer with Altmer and Breton, which has also been changed on PTS to where Breton is BiS. Bosmer had the same Poison/Disease immunity on Live; it was nice to have but hardly game breaking either. Disease immunity is practically worthless on its own since PvE has no disease damage and in PvP, no one uses Disease Glyphs for defile but skills that bypass Disease Immunity, like Incap, Dark Flare, etc.

As for why I laugh at the Clever Alchemist Argument is because you can get more damage from something like Spell Strategist. In the absolute best case scenario for Clever Alchemist, the most damage you can get from it is ~450 effective WD/SP, which is assuming Infused Jewelry + Pot reduction enchantments. I get more than that from Spell Strategist alone, on top of not having to sacrifice my Jewelry Traits/Enchantments, which would give even more damage/sustain than using Clever Alchemist for an Argonian. The entire argument that Clever Alchemist is this godly set for an Argonian is absolute crap so before going off and saying "L2P" maybe you should learn since you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about.

HankTwo · February 2019

So it seems to me that ZOS envisions argonians to be the mag healer/support race (not so much tanking, because they took away the healing received and nerfed their max health by a large amount). If they are, however, significantly weaker in that role compared to other races like bretons or altmers (who additionally are top mag dps races) then thats indeed a problem. Do you think an increase to their max magicka and/or a slight boost to the healing done would make them more competitive as a healing race (2000 mag and 6% healing done or 1500 mag and 8% healing done)?

WuffyCerulei · February 2019

@HatchetHaro I’m surprised you haven’t commented on this yet.

Skander · February 2019

They are still strong as ***

Chrlynsch · February 2019

Change max health/max magic to.
When you consume a potion in combat increase your health, stamina, and magicka by 600 for 1 min. This effect can stack 5 times.

This starts Argonian at a disadvantage but as a fight goes on they become more powerful. This makes argonians more dynamic. And allows them more diversity and a way to catch up in damage.

HatchetHaro · February 2019

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

@HatchetHaro I’m surprised you haven’t commented on this yet.

I have said everything that has to be said in my own threads. There is no point in arguing with ignorance and misinformation.

Skander wrote: »

They are still strong as ***

No they're not. Their utility is situational at best, their healing ability is trumped by the rest of the Magicka races, and their damage is abysmal.

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

So many people look at the argonian potion passive as this godly regen bonus. It's not. It's incredibly situational, and usually only good in pvp.

In PvE, you are usually full health if your healer is decent, and it's rare that your off-stat actually dips for magicka or stamina builds. In fact, plenty of stamina builds literally never need magicka because they have 0-1 magicka abilities and use them maybe once every 20s if at all.

So realistically, that 12000 bonus base stats you get from drinking a potion becomes 4000, because of the way this game is structured. When you accept this, Argonians suck in PvE.

Resourceful is the problem, it's a bizarre outlier among racial passives and it needs to be addressed before Argonians can be in a good place compared to other races.

Argonian is No 1 race in live server by far and this is a well deserved nerf. I dont think ZOs going to buff argonians in near future apart from tweaking numbers.
Resourceful is still a big problem in PVP. It makes Argonian to near god status in PVP with disease and poison status immunity in live server. Atleast immunity goes off now. Argonian is the only race which is best in slot for both tanking and Healer. No other race still have a chance to compete. Argonian is near BIS in slot for DPS with clever alchemist with infused jewelry for both stamina and magicka and hybrids. But all EP guys come here and lying shamelessly Argonian is useless in live server.
How you ever think of argonian potion passives with sets like alchemists with 850K spell/weapon damage and still bonus damage racial passives ? Its will be OP.

No other race is current live is best in slot for 2 roles possibly all roles . Even for dps , stam dps is dominated by red guards and mage dps is dominated by dark elf , but only by slight margin. If you want dps choose other races. You should not expect argonian utility passives intact and still dps , tank and heal more than other races , so that freely exploit PVP. One day or other it has to be put back in place. Also argonian numbers are not far from other races. If you want to add some remove some existing passives. Dont expect to enjoy free meals all the time. L2P . Thread is already closed.

I stopped reading at Clever Alchemist as its clear you got this misinformation from someone else and have never actually tested any of this and are just spewing nonsense at this point. Argonians are only BiS Tanks because all other races offer nothing worthwhile for Tanking, which has been changed in PTS as now both Nord and Imperial offer group utility on top of several other changes that make them better suited for Tanking than Argonian. Argonians were TIED for BIS Healer with Altmer and Breton, which has also been changed on PTS to where Breton is BiS. Bosmer had the same Poison/Disease immunity on Live; it was nice to have but hardly game breaking either. Disease immunity is practically worthless on its own since PvE has no disease damage and in PvP, no one uses Disease Glyphs for defile but skills that bypass Disease Immunity, like Incap, Dark Flare, etc.

As for why I laugh at the Clever Alchemist Argument is because you can get more damage from something like Spell Strategist. In the absolute best case scenario for Clever Alchemist, the most damage you can get from it is ~450 effective WD/SP, which is assuming Infused Jewelry + Pot reduction enchantments. I get more than that from Spell Strategist alone, on top of not having to sacrifice my Jewelry Traits/Enchantments, which would give even more damage/sustain than using Clever Alchemist for an Argonian. The entire argument that Clever Alchemist is this godly set for an Argonian is absolute crap so before going off and saying "L2P" maybe you should learn since you clearly don't know wtf you're talking about.

Dude no one cares your laugh. Clever alchemist wins hands down spell strategist and everyone knows it. You yourself know it provided if you good player. Plus argonian can have 2 potion buffs active at same time in PVP. 70 percent uptime on major vitality.

No one can deal with this crap. Argonian still pretty strong in PVP strong contender for no 1 spot in PVP if orc is balanced unless resourceful goes away. Just exchange with whatever race passives you like except orcs.

Its L2P issue. Not balancing issue. Just take whatever race liked except orc ofcourse. Its 3 free race change tokens. Objective of this thread is not about balance. Its about asking for more cheese promoting lies for self benefits. Can we exchange 2k magicka for resource passive and 258 spell damage for healing bonus ? Argonian become dps viable?

Give something and take something.

Please be honest with your opinions. At least try to be honest.