Example of power creep spiraling out of control

  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Comparing a monster set to a craftable 5 pc set is just apples and oranges imho."

    Its all gear that you can use on your character. 1 is balanced and the other is broken compared ot first. Yes their power levels are apples and oranges and thats exactly what is causing 80% of insane power creep issues (combined with CP)

    OK lets compare 2 Crafted sets then....

    Ashen grip and TBS,

    Ashen Grip:
    (2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
    (3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
    (4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
    (5 items) When you deal direct melee damage, you have a 10% chance to breath fire to all enemies in front of you for 1118 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds.

    Twice Born Star:
    2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
    (3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
    (4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
    (5 items) You can have two Mundus Stone boons at the same time.

    now guess which set is way surperior to the other...jeah TBS, because it gives way stronger stats than Ashen grip will eer have.


    The gear is part of the Imbalance yes, but If they atart nerfing gear now, and keep CP as they are, this will end up in even more broken gear / CP combos than now.

    They are adressing Races first, then they will start balancing CP system, Classes and Gear.

    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Comparing a monster set to a craftable 5 pc set is just apples and oranges imho."

    Its all gear that you can use on your character. 1 is balanced and the other is broken compared ot first. Yes their power levels are apples and oranges and thats exactly what is causing 80% of insane power creep issues (combined with CP)

    Monstersets arent the main reason power creep is broken tho.
    If I hit 40k on a dummy with Veli, and 38k without it thats only 2 k difference
    but IF I hit 40k with relequen, and only 35k without relequen, but both times use velidreth, which set is more OP...the monsterset or Relequen?
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  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    ...
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 12:35PM
  • Reistr_the_Unbroken
    Reistr_the_Unbroken
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    Guys let’s stop feeding this thread, it’s obviously a troll thread to bait and flame people. OP will never learn.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    But you got that 2 piece set by enjoying the content you played....RIGHT?
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    THe Powercreep is more out of hand in classes, CP's and straiht out overpowered new gearsets.

    Old sets will always be worse then newers, why should we try to get our hands on new gear, when older gear is always stronger?

    If Cloudrest would only dropp garbage gearsets, would anyone run it, except the progress groups going for achievements, and having the willingness to get new content done?...no noone would run it, therefore ZOS wouldnt even need to make it, or jus tmake it for PVE progression groups (aka. less then 5% of the playerbase)
    Edited by SaintSubwayy on February 12, 2019 12:28PM
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  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    One shot mechanics is "artificial difficulty" and is what devs across MMOs use because they cant come up with anything better.

    Like simple "pull two levers simultaneously" to prevent people from soloing dungeons.

    On that we can agree.
    MikaHR wrote: »
    One shot mechanics is "artificial difficulty" and is what devs across MMOs use because they cant come up with anything better.

    Like simple "pull two levers simultaneously" to prevent people from soloing dungeons.
    Jeremy wrote: »

    No.

    I said it was the discrepancy between the level of the character and the level of the content that is responsible for trivializing the content.

    You mean the definition of power creep.

    Yeah, content isnt cacthing up with power creep (and it isnt healthy to do so long term) because new players dont enter the game with 810 CP and top gear. 99,999999999999% of playerbase dont have that.

    "VET levels" arent coming back, the only reasonable solution is to kurb power creep and stop invalidating all content so that BOTH new and old players can enjoy it.

    I never said "Vet Levels" so I"m not sure why you would put that in quotes.

    I said veteran zones.

    Here is the definition of power creep according to Wikitionary:

    power creep (uncountable)

    (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.


    That' might be somewhat of a problem on this game. But I wouldn't consider it significant. This game does a fairly good job at keeping older content and abilities/gear relevant and useful.

    The lack of high level content to match high level characters is the more serious problem.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 12:31PM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    THe Powercreep is more out of hand in classes, CP's and straiht out overpowered new gearsets.

    Old sets will always be worse then newers, why should we try to get our hands on new gear, when older gear is always stronger?

    If Cloudrest would only dropp garbage gearsets, would anyone run it, except the progress groups going for achievements, and having the willingness to get new content done?...no noone would run it, therefore ZOS wouldnt even need to make it, or jus tmake it for PVE progression groups (aka. less then 5% of the playerbase)



    Thats right, ZOS should STOP making conten no one wants to play and then put INSANE power creep gear to justify the content (well raids are financial failure no matter what you stuff in them) and screwing up whole game.
    Jeremy wrote: »

    I said veteran zones.

    Here is the definition of power creep according to Wikitionary:

    power creep (uncountable)

    (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.


    That' might be somewhat of a problem on this game. But I wouldn't consider it significant. This game does a fairly good job at keeping older content and abilities/gear relevant and useful.

    The lack of high level content to match high level characters is the more serious problem.

    1. guess where "VET levels" happened...in VET ZONES!...been there.....done that....completely failed and almost killed the agme

    2. You obviously have HUGE issue and significance with insane power creep as you advocate the content to match your insane out of control power creep...means that that powr creep has already diminished your enjoyment of the game.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:35PM
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    Jeremy wrote: »

    The lack of high level content to match high level characters is the more serious problem.

    ^ This 100%

    its a topic the community is picking up over and over, without any results form ZOS side
    yes they release harder and harder Trials and dungeons, but most of the ppl demanding harder content, would like overland to be harder for questing etc.
    Difficulty lvls on dungeons like SCP or MHK are getting out of hand IMO.

    But questing (I like the sotries etc) is broing af, when enemies die within 2 hit, or even get oneshot....jsut plain out boring.
    (yeah I may be using a way too OP setcombo for lvling, but the game should adjust for that, not I should adjust my gear to the game)
    If I do alot more dmg, then the adds should also be more healthy to take the dmg, and not die when looking at them -.^

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  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    CP needs taming, overland requires conditional or basic buff -- dungeons require a new medium tier and dungeon mechanics need better design. Only then should gear be reviewed for potentially over performing sets.

    That will address the primary issue of power creep and the ever widening gap between the 'ceiling' and 'floor'.
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 12:35PM
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    "Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay."

    No its not.

    Yeah, I hate to say it, but they're right. The original Silver and Gold zones were brutal. There's a lot to recommend them, but they were also dead.
    Co-Host of The Tenets: a podcast focused on bringing new players up to speed in ESO.
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    "Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay."

    No its not.

    Yeah, I hate to say it, but they're right. The original Silver and Gold zones were brutal. There's a lot to recommend them, but they were also dead.

    good old times when 3 wasps could easily kill you in upper craglorn :smiley:
    PC EU
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    Exceed Gaming
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    CP needs taming, overland requires conditional or basic buff -- dungeons require a new medium tier and dungeon mechanics need better design. Only then should gear be reviewed for potentially over performing sets.

    That will address the primary issue of power creep and the ever widening gap between the 'ceiling' and 'floor'.

    Wrong BOTH gear and CP should be heavily nerfed and THEN content adjused, NOT the other way around (how would that even work) *facepalm

    BOTH gear AND content should be normalized across the board.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:39PM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    "Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay."

    No its not.

    Yeah, I hate to say it, but they're right. The original Silver and Gold zones were brutal. There's a lot to recommend them, but they were also dead.

    These developers always seem to have an issue with finding a right balance between insanely easy and brutally difficult.

    If they were to tone them down some they might would be more popular - especially for players like me who find it ridiculously boring to slaughter everything in seconds. It makes questing a bore. A little more challenge would be welcomed. They don't have to make it ridiculously difficult. But at least make it to where they survive long enough to actually fight back and pose an actual combat situation.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 12:42PM
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    "Or just add veteran zones designed for higher level characters."

    they tried that at launch.

    It failed miserably and they had to rework the WHOLE game otherwise it would be shut down.

    "Character progression and growing more powerful is at the core of RPG gameplay."

    No its not.

    Yeah, I hate to say it, but they're right. The original Silver and Gold zones were brutal. There's a lot to recommend them, but they were also dead.

    good old times when 3 wasps could easily kill you in upper craglorn :smiley:

    Given it was a group zone it was appropriate. I think they went to far to easy mode on the change. There is a lot of middle ground between easy and hard left untapped in ESO. When I say easy/hard I do not mean complicated mechanics. I mean required DPS/healing, synergistic use of skills and the right class make up for the content challange.
    Edited by Skwor on February 12, 2019 12:42PM
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    The shield is equivalent to basically one free hit, and it has a cooldown.

    The damage is less than 1k DPS.

    Both of those are in terms of PvE. PvP, and those values gets halved.

    Iceheart isn't making anyone remotely immortal, and the damage from Iceheart isn't the reason top end players are hitting 60k-70k parses.

    You picked possibly the worst example of power creep imaginable.

    EDIT: For reference: Every monster set out there adds a max DPS between 1k-3k, even the mighty Zaan.

    2nd EDIT: Are there overtuned sets? Of course there are, they sell content.

    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on February 12, 2019 12:51PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    MikaHR wrote: »

    BOTH gear AND content should be normalized across the board.

    Explanation of situation

    [1]

    Gear and content are normalised at CP160.

    Player CP extends currently to 810 cap.

    Group content is scaled to the cap at the time of release -- this means an escalating difficulty.


    [2]

    Stalling CP cap increase means Group content stays temporarily horizontal in difficulty.

    Lower level players have catch up mechanics.

    CP 300 gets buff to compensate, uplift to raise the 'floor'.

    Middle Tier difficulty put in place to close gap between normal and veteran for player accessibility and progress


    [3]

    Game is normalized.

    edit to add

    -- ZoS are doing this --
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 12:51PM
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    CP needs taming, overland requires conditional or basic buff -- dungeons require a new medium tier and dungeon mechanics need better design. Only then should gear be reviewed for potentially over performing sets.

    That will address the primary issue of power creep and the ever widening gap between the 'ceiling' and 'floor'.

    Wrong BOTH gear and CP should be heavily nerfed and THEN content adjused, NOT the other way around (how would that even work) *facepalm

    BOTH gear AND content should be normalized across the board.

    when you are so unhappy with the Powercreep in the game, why dont you just leave and move on to another one?

    I mean srsly, it is a problem, but not realy as big as you try to make it.
    PC EU
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    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Oh really, we at that point telling people to leave, remember what happened last time people like you told others to leave because they were not happy with whole "VET level" stuff along with forced grouping.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:49PM
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »

    BOTH gear AND content should be normalized across the board.

    Explanation of situation

    [1]

    Gear and content are normalised at CP160.

    Player CP extends currently to 810 cap.

    Group content is scaled to the cap at the time of release -- this means an escalating difficulty.


    [2]

    Stalling CP cap increase means Group content stays temporarily horizontal in difficulty.

    Lower level players have catch up mechanics.

    CP 300 gets buff to compensate, uplift to raise the 'floor'.

    Game is normalized.

    edit to add

    -- ZoS are doing this --

    "Difficulty" is NOT just a gear check, try to keep up with discussion.

    game is out of whack and spiraling out of control. opposite of normalized. thanks to insane power creep from gear and CP.

    "20% to compensate"...compensate WHAT, as apparently there is no insane power creep.....according to few people here including you.

    ZOS: "lets make alread out of control even WORSE by giving another +20% on EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!"
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 12:53PM
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    THe Powercreep is more out of hand in classes, CP's and straiht out overpowered new gearsets.

    Old sets will always be worse then newers, why should we try to get our hands on new gear, when older gear is always stronger?

    If Cloudrest would only dropp garbage gearsets, would anyone run it, except the progress groups going for achievements, and having the willingness to get new content done?...no noone would run it, therefore ZOS wouldnt even need to make it, or jus tmake it for PVE progression groups (aka. less then 5% of the playerbase)



    Thats right, ZOS should STOP making conten no one wants to play and then put INSANE power creep gear to justify the content (well raids are financial failure no matter what you stuff in them) and screwing up whole game.
    Jeremy wrote: »

    I said veteran zones.

    Here is the definition of power creep according to Wikitionary:

    power creep (uncountable)

    (collectible games, video games, role-playing games) The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.


    That' might be somewhat of a problem on this game. But I wouldn't consider it significant. This game does a fairly good job at keeping older content and abilities/gear relevant and useful.

    The lack of high level content to match high level characters is the more serious problem.

    1. guess where "VET levels" happened...in VET ZONES!...been there.....done that....completely failed and almost killed the agme

    2. You obviously have HUGE issue and significance with insane power creep as you advocate the content to match your insane out of control power creep...means that that powr creep has already diminished your enjoyment of the game.

    But I'm not proposing they bring back the veteran leveling system. I am proposing they bring back the option to quest in a veteran zone where monsters are scaled to the player's higher level so as to make the combat more interesting.

    As far as your second point - I've explained it as best i can. I even gave you the online definition of power creep and explained in detail why I don't believe it's applicable to what I am describing. But that's really a semantic argument I'm not interested in having.

    What ever you want to call it - the real problem here is that the new content being introduced is not made with higher level characters in mind.
    Edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2019 12:56PM
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    mairwen85 wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »

    BOTH gear AND content should be normalized across the board.

    Explanation of situation

    [1]

    Gear and content are normalised at CP160.

    Player CP extends currently to 810 cap.

    Group content is scaled to the cap at the time of release -- this means an escalating difficulty.


    [2]

    Stalling CP cap increase means Group content stays temporarily horizontal in difficulty.

    Lower level players have catch up mechanics.

    CP 300 gets buff to compensate, uplift to raise the 'floor'.

    Game is normalized.

    edit to add

    -- ZoS are doing this --

    "Difficulty" is NOT just a gear check, try to keep up with discussion.

    game is out of whack and spiraling out of control. opposite of normalized. thanks to insane power creep from gear and CP.

    Just how long have you been playing ESO? This is not a challange it is a honest question. I see you joined the forums on Jan 15 but I also know that has no bearing on when you started playing ESO.

    However you do seem to have a lack of understanding of ESO's growth.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    You're either complaining to complain, in which case, nothing anyone says here is going to sway you, or you're getting "Power Creep" mixed up with lack of clear progression.

    If it was all about the creep, there wouldn't be the still-present divide between high end and newer players.

    There should always be harder content. There should equally be means of progressing within that content, beyond obtaining a limited number of specific sets or practicing rotations for hours on end.

    That is the area that is lacking.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • Helric
    Helric
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    Hello,
    I would like to give the point of view of a "new player".
    The game is too easy, even for a new player.
    Whether outdoors, in public dungeons and dens.
    We especially feel the imbalance in veteran dungeons.
    If I am with players of my level (CP) in dungeon we must respect the strategies and the dungeons are really interesting.
    But from the moment we fall with big players, say 300+ CP the game becomes completely uninteresting and everything is done in burst.


    Maybe they should reduce or remove champion points, or give the same CP lv to mobs.
    But it's a pity to see a lot of the content become boring because of the high CP or unbalanced gear.
    I still have to unlock 300cp + dungeons and I really hope to have a little difficulty in it.

    I hope I contributed to the thread, it seemed important to me to have the point of view of low lv CP player.
    Edited by Helric on February 12, 2019 1:00PM
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    MikaHR wrote: »

    "Difficulty" is NOT just a gear check, try to keep up with discussion.

    game is out of whack and spiraling out of control. opposite of normalized. thanks to insane power creep from gear and CP.

    "20% to compensate"...compensate WHAT, as apparently there is no insane power creep.....according to few people here including you.

    I never said that. Please quote me saying that.
    try to keep up with discussion

    try to read the responses to your own thread, and debate without putting words in people's mouths. There is no discussion to be had when you twist every post. There are many views in this thread that are not aligned, but the posters are willing and would be able to have a mature and respectful discussion -- however, that discussion (which you started) is repeatedly disrupted with your continuous attacks, name calling and Trumpean tactics.

    Try to start a thread that doesn't get closed for once. It might be illuminating.
    Edited by mairwen85 on February 12, 2019 12:58PM
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    MikaHR wrote: »
    Oh really, we at that point telling people to leave, remember what happened last time people like you told others to leave because they were not happy with whole "VET level" stuff along with forced grouping.

    Im not saing you should leave...

    I asked you why you DONT leave?

    It seems that you do not like ESO at the moment, reasons aside here....yet you are still plaing it, so theres atleast 1 thing in the game that you like enough to keep plaing, what is this thing?

    IF I dont like something, why should I stick with it / keep doin it, if I dont like it?
    Edited by SaintSubwayy on February 12, 2019 1:03PM
    PC EU
    vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vMSA

    Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Master Angler / PVP Noob^^

    Exceed Gaming
  • Jeremy
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    You're either complaining to complain, in which case, nothing anyone says here is going to sway you, or you're getting "Power Creep" mixed up with lack of clear progression.

    If it was all about the creep, there wouldn't be the still-present divide between high end and newer players.

    There should always be harder content. There should equally be means of progressing within that content, beyond obtaining a limited number of specific sets or practicing rotations for hours on end.

    That is the area that is lacking.

    You pretty much summed up everything I was trying to say, but more succinctly. So I'll just refer to you and bow out of this one. ^^
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Jeremy wrote: »

    But I'm not proposing they bring back the veteran leveling system. I am proposing they bring back the option to quest in a veteran zone where monsters are scaled to the player's higher level so as to make the combat more interesting.

    As far as your second point - I've explained it as best i can. I even gave you the online definition of power creep and explained in detail why I don't believe it's applicable to what I am describing. But that's really a semantic argument I'm not interested in having.

    What ever you want to call it - the real problem here is that the new content being introduced is not made with higher level characters in mind.

    You keep proposing for them to return the system that already almost killed the game and they had to completely rework the entire game.
  • Skwor
    Skwor
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    Helric wrote: »
    Hello,
    I would like to give the point of view of a "new player".
    The game is too easy, even for a new player.
    Whether outdoors, in public dungeons and dens.
    We especially feel the imbalance in veteran dungeons.
    If I am with players of my level (CP) in dungeon we must respect the strategies and the dungeons are really interesting.
    But from the moment we fall with big players, say 300+ CP the game becomes completely uninteresting and everything is done in burst.


    Maybe they should reduce or remove champion points, or give the same CP lv to mobs.
    But it's a pity to see a lot of the content become boring because of the high CP or unbalanced gear.
    I still have to unlock 300cp + dungeons and I really hope to have a little difficulty in it.

    I hope I contributed to the thread, it seemed important to me to have the point of view of low lv CP player.

    You have. However I disagree with your conclusion. I can see CP being reworked, I do believe though we would gain more by uncapping mobs and allowinfg content to once again level scale.

    It is time for some content to require different levels to complete, we need a merge of one Tamrial and fixed level content that is not capped.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    mairwen85 wrote: »
    MikaHR wrote: »

    "Difficulty" is NOT just a gear check, try to keep up with discussion.

    game is out of whack and spiraling out of control. opposite of normalized. thanks to insane power creep from gear and CP.

    "20% to compensate"...compensate WHAT, as apparently there is no insane power creep.....according to few people here including you.

    I never said that. Please quote me saying that.
    try to keep up with discussion

    try to read the responses to your own thread, and debate without putting words in people's mouths. There is no discussion to be had when you twist every post. There are many views in this thread that are not aligned, but the posters are willing and would be able to have a mature and respectful discussion -- however, that discussion (which you started) is repeatedly disrupted with your continuous attacks, name calling and Trumpean tactics.

    Try to start a thread that doesn't get closed for once. It might be illuminating.

    And you keep making ridiculous "points" that get refuted and then procede to cry about it.
  • MikaHR
    MikaHR
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    Helric wrote: »
    Hello,
    I would like to give the point of view of a "new player".
    The game is too easy, even for a new player.
    Whether outdoors, in public dungeons and dens.
    We especially feel the imbalance in veteran dungeons.
    If I am with players of my level (CP) in dungeon we must respect the strategies and the dungeons are really interesting.
    But from the moment we fall with big players, say 300+ CP the game becomes completely uninteresting and everything is done in burst.


    Maybe they should reduce or remove champion points, or give the same CP lv to mobs.
    But it's a pity to see a lot of the content become boring because of the high CP or unbalanced gear.
    I still have to unlock 300cp + dungeons and I really hope to have a little difficulty in it.

    I hope I contributed to the thread, it seemed important to me to have the point of view of low lv CP player.

    Thanks, that is exactly the problem, insane power creep invaldating all content which is utterly UNhelathy for the game in teh long turn.

    Game cannot be normalized in difficulty with insane power creep on gear and CP. First you have to deal with those 2 then you can proceede to normalize the difficulty of the content across the board.
    Edited by MikaHR on February 12, 2019 1:10PM
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