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The Wrathstone DLC Game Pack and Update 21 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! Read the full patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454456/

Love the Khajit changes.

Wolf_Watching
Wolf_Watching
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Low battery so in short they are great and well balanced. Especially for a hybrid race (pvp or pve) and a PvP race.

Also ww sustain passive doesn’t work (unrelated).
Edited by Wolf_Watching on February 12, 2019 2:28AM
If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • WikiMeister
    WikiMeister
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    <Laughs in Imperial> First time?

    Seriously though, I would not be complaining at that free, non-buff locked hand-out of 10% (a very, very juicy number if all your stats add up) increased critical effect, which come from very limited sources: Minor/Major Force, Shadow Mundus, select Templar/NB passives, and lastly CP.

    Tests are being done, and have been done in which Khajiit still can pull some very impressive numbers to their contemporaries, while conceding their spots as the rather lorebreakingly 'highest magicka DPS' which was being observed last week in 4.3.2.

    @John_Falstaff Critical has significance in PvP especially if you're a stamspec with very few heals in hand - you become very reliant upon the potency of your healing. Khajiit's passive will significantly bolster the power of your self-sustain especially if you tag crit heals on all your Vigor/Regeneration/Rally/[Insert HoT/Burstheal here] ticks.
    PC-NA. Beta veteran since 2014.
  • MisterBigglesworth
    MisterBigglesworth
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    If tests are being done (for PVE) then:
    • do these tests involve Caluurion/Scathing?
    • if not, why not?
    • do one or both of these sets need buffs? and finally..
    • even if buffed, does it matter?
    Really we do it without like, the musical instruments. This is the only musical: the mouth. And hopefully the brain attached to the mouth. Right? The brain, more important than the mouth, is the brain. The brain is much more important.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
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    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    Healing not damage. Benefit from Critical chance is negated by impen while critical damage fights impen and still can boost heals in this case.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
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    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    they are now IMO more then ever a jack of all traits but master at none.

    PVE:
    Mag DD -> Breton > Khajit
    Stam DD -> Orc > Khajit
    Tank...jeah not even gona mention that
    Healers -> Breton / Argonians > Khajit

    PVP Ganker...well prob better off with Orc aswell, due to movespeed and way higher flat dmg
    PVP Tank -> Lizards / Imperials > Khajit
    PVP Healer -> Bretons / Lizards > Khajit


    so you see, jack of all, master of none....
    with the 8% Crit Ratio they atleast could contest with Bretons in PVE, due to them beeing able to use Shadow mundus effectivly, now thats gone....gg ZOS

    So what? Right under for a hybrid is great!
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Edziu
    Edziu
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    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    they are now IMO more then ever a jack of all traits but master at none.

    PVE:
    Mag DD -> Breton > Khajit
    Stam DD -> Orc > Khajit
    Tank...jeah not even gona mention that
    Healers -> Breton / Argonians > Khajit

    PVP Ganker...well prob better off with Orc aswell, due to movespeed and way higher flat dmg
    PVP Tank -> Lizards / Imperials > Khajit
    PVP Healer -> Bretons / Lizards > Khajit


    so you see, jack of all, master of none....
    with the 8% Crit Ratio they atleast could contest with Bretons in PVE, due to them beeing able to use Shadow mundus effectivly, now thats gone....gg ZOS

    So what? Right under for a hybrid is great!

    dunmer weapon/spell damage bonus is better than 10% crit damage bonus
    +dunmer weapon/spell damage will also apply for noncrit hits so another disadvantage of khajiit
    Pro Xp Waster Jaszcz - Khajiit stamina NB, DC EU PC 40AR -main char(no meta cancer build except monster set but its changing situationally)
    Lubisz to Suko - radiantspam repentanting T-bagging Cancerplar (obsolete, retired)
    Bury Zenek - master race Dunmer magdk tonk/dd, argonian slaver (obselote, retired)
    Twin Grakata - stamplar for fun after got sick of NB's meta(Blackrose Executioner)
    1.1k+CP on PC EU [] 28000+ Achievement points [] 2900+ Lorebuks doesnt care anymore about this as stopped play main char (pissed off gathering same achievs again and again...)
    370CP on PC NA (stamplar and stamablade lvled)
    retired from eso since morrowind, back after half of year for short time and again retired after summerset, back with cwc event idk for how long
    DD should gather red circles as many as can
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
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    Edziu wrote: »
    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    they are now IMO more then ever a jack of all traits but master at none.

    PVE:
    Mag DD -> Breton > Khajit
    Stam DD -> Orc > Khajit
    Tank...jeah not even gona mention that
    Healers -> Breton / Argonians > Khajit

    PVP Ganker...well prob better off with Orc aswell, due to movespeed and way higher flat dmg
    PVP Tank -> Lizards / Imperials > Khajit
    PVP Healer -> Bretons / Lizards > Khajit


    so you see, jack of all, master of none....
    with the 8% Crit Ratio they atleast could contest with Bretons in PVE, due to them beeing able to use Shadow mundus effectivly, now thats gone....gg ZOS

    So what? Right under for a hybrid is great!

    dunmer weapon/spell damage bonus is better than 10% crit damage bonus
    +dunmer weapon/spell damage will also apply for noncrit hits so another disadvantage of khajiit

    It does add flavor. What if they added like 3% chance w/ it? Could be the crit race
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    I don't know if I love it. But I'm confident. I'm pretty sure this will turn out to be a buff for stamina and a nerf for magicka, and it will not prevent me from playing either.
    PC - EU
    "Kiz Zennrili an Zennji siir furo jer wodro"
    May Jone and Jode's light reveal your path.
  • Edziu
    Edziu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Edziu wrote: »
    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    they are now IMO more then ever a jack of all traits but master at none.

    PVE:
    Mag DD -> Breton > Khajit
    Stam DD -> Orc > Khajit
    Tank...jeah not even gona mention that
    Healers -> Breton / Argonians > Khajit

    PVP Ganker...well prob better off with Orc aswell, due to movespeed and way higher flat dmg
    PVP Tank -> Lizards / Imperials > Khajit
    PVP Healer -> Bretons / Lizards > Khajit


    so you see, jack of all, master of none....
    with the 8% Crit Ratio they atleast could contest with Bretons in PVE, due to them beeing able to use Shadow mundus effectivly, now thats gone....gg ZOS

    So what? Right under for a hybrid is great!

    dunmer weapon/spell damage bonus is better than 10% crit damage bonus
    +dunmer weapon/spell damage will also apply for noncrit hits so another disadvantage of khajiit

    It does add flavor. What if they added like 3% chance w/ it? Could be the crit race

    if it had any good number of jsut crit chance this would be fine...like aways when khajiit have, had crit chance bonus so we had better diverisy and more use of this than only crit damage which is even lower than 250 weapon/spell dmg from races with just crit hits, this is insane
    Pro Xp Waster Jaszcz - Khajiit stamina NB, DC EU PC 40AR -main char(no meta cancer build except monster set but its changing situationally)
    Lubisz to Suko - radiantspam repentanting T-bagging Cancerplar (obsolete, retired)
    Bury Zenek - master race Dunmer magdk tonk/dd, argonian slaver (obselote, retired)
    Twin Grakata - stamplar for fun after got sick of NB's meta(Blackrose Executioner)
    1.1k+CP on PC EU [] 28000+ Achievement points [] 2900+ Lorebuks doesnt care anymore about this as stopped play main char (pissed off gathering same achievs again and again...)
    370CP on PC NA (stamplar and stamablade lvled)
    retired from eso since morrowind, back after half of year for short time and again retired after summerset, back with cwc event idk for how long
    DD should gather red circles as many as can
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    Edziu wrote: »
    Edziu wrote: »
    @Wolf_Watching , since when crit had much significance in PvP? Considering khajiits PvP race is a misnomer. And hybrid race does not bear any practical benefit for any particular role you choose; 'hybrid' is not a spec you can put to use, not the way the game is designed. I'm still not convinced that the new passive won't make khajiits what most feared they'll become after first preview of racial passives - jacks of all trades, masters of none.

    they are now IMO more then ever a jack of all traits but master at none.

    PVE:
    Mag DD -> Breton > Khajit
    Stam DD -> Orc > Khajit
    Tank...jeah not even gona mention that
    Healers -> Breton / Argonians > Khajit

    PVP Ganker...well prob better off with Orc aswell, due to movespeed and way higher flat dmg
    PVP Tank -> Lizards / Imperials > Khajit
    PVP Healer -> Bretons / Lizards > Khajit


    so you see, jack of all, master of none....
    with the 8% Crit Ratio they atleast could contest with Bretons in PVE, due to them beeing able to use Shadow mundus effectivly, now thats gone....gg ZOS

    So what? Right under for a hybrid is great!

    dunmer weapon/spell damage bonus is better than 10% crit damage bonus
    +dunmer weapon/spell damage will also apply for noncrit hits so another disadvantage of khajiit

    It does add flavor. What if they added like 3% chance w/ it? Could be the crit race

    if it had any good number of jsut crit chance this would be fine...like aways when khajiit have, had crit chance bonus so we had better diverisy and more use of this than only crit damage which is even lower than 250 weapon/spell dmg from races with just crit hits, this is insane

    Right. Possible take orc stamina down to 1k also.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    Elwendryll wrote: »
    I don't know if I love it. But I'm confident. I'm pretty sure this will turn out to be a buff for stamina and a nerf for magicka, and it will not prevent me from playing either.

    Same. Again love the new and much better duality races offer.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
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    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    Right.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 13, 2019 9:12PM
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.

    I don't really think this is true. Especially as it pertains to class selection.

    In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

    Let's take a hypothetical build. We'll say it's a stamsorc with 70% crit chance and 85% crit damage modifier (50% base + 10% Minor Force + 20% Precise Strikes + 5% Major Force @ 33% uptime):

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.26% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.7) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.39% damage increase

    Now let's take the same hypothetical build and pretend it's a stamblade, so we'll add +10% critical damage and +4% critical chance (that's two Assasination abilities slotted), making a total 74% crit chance and 95% crit damage modifier:

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.95) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.46% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.74) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.34% damage increase

    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).
    Edited by LiquidPony on February 13, 2019 9:31PM
  • ccmedaddy
    ccmedaddy
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).
    Ooohhhhh this is really interesting and super helpful. Thanks.
    dunmer magblade - flawless conqueror
    argonian magden - flawless conqueror
    argonian magplar - flawless conqueror
    dunmer magdk - flawless conqueror
    altmer magsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc werewolf stamsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc stamplar - flawless conqueror
    redguard stamblade - flawless conqueror
    nord stamdk - lvl 5, lost forever in coldharbor
  • zaria
    zaria
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    ✭✭✭
    Well it looks like it was an pretty clear nerf.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3#latest
    Note you could probably optimize CP a bit more but that is true for all races but think Khajiit would benefit more from this as being so weird.

    Obliviously this demand an buff.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.

    I don't really think this is true. Especially as it pertains to class selection.

    In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

    Let's take a hypothetical build. We'll say it's a stamsorc with 70% crit chance and 85% crit damage modifier (50% base + 10% Minor Force + 20% Precise Strikes + 5% Major Force @ 33% uptime):

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.26% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.7) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.39% damage increase

    Now let's take the same hypothetical build and pretend it's a stamblade, so we'll add +10% critical damage and +4% critical chance (that's two Assasination abilities slotted), making a total 74% crit chance and 95% crit damage modifier:

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.95) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.46% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.74) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.34% damage increase

    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).

    @LiquidPony I partially agree with you, but I think there’s more to it than that. We can both agree for sure that Templars were affected worst, since they have no Crit Chance bonuses, but already had 10% Crit Damage. For 2 classes with the same gear, Nightblade would probably be affected worse than something like Sorcerer. However, nobody builds these classes the same because they have different bonuses, Sorcerers have a high multiplier on Weapon/Spell Damage and need more sustain, Nightblades synergize better with Crit builds (they get Crit Chance and Crit Damage).

    For classes like Magsorc, MagDK, or Magwarden, 59.5% Spell Crit after buffs is probably the most common (with Thief and 7 divines). With a Crit Damage multiplier of about 1.87. So the 10% new Crit dmg bonus is about 3.9% damage increase. The old 8% Crit Chance was a 4.6% damage increase.

    This actually gets much worse if you consider the new Shadow Stone, the 3 non-crit magicka classes above then have 48.8% Spell Crit and a multiplier of 2.07 (this build gives them more damage than Thief). Now the 8% Crit Chance is a 5.6% damage increase, and the 10% Crit Damage is only 3.2%.

    It’s possible that the added Crit Dmg from Shadow would make these classes switch from their damage sets (Spellweave, Siroria, Moondancer, Necropotence, Spell Strat, Architect, etc) to something like Mother’s Sorrow or Mechanical Acuity, which would help mitigate the losses. But again, my point is more about pigeonholing builds than about net DPS losses.

    Magicka Crit-based DPS (most commonly nightblades) were already making use of high Crit Damage, and often had around 83.6% Spell Crit (with Thief) and 1.99 Multiplier. They gained 3.8% damage from the old 8% crit, and now get 4% damage from the new 10% Crit Damage.

    On the stamina side, Crit Chance is typically higher from daggers and Relequen, so the balance would be shifted a little toward Crit Damage as you said. Although Stam Sorc is still probably on the lower end of the benefit (compared to Nightblade) since they often skip a dagger for an axe (Sorcerers get more bleed damage from their Physical Damage % increase, and bleeds are helpful since they lack armor debuffs outside of optimized groups). Stamblades pick up 5% more Crit Chance from the 2nd dagger and usually 4% from class passives.

    For any stamina class, the Khajiit and Shadow changes make them even more reliant on Advancing Yokeda, which is not a positive change IMO. Especially since Relequen is pretty much required for all stamina classes, so now both 5-piece sets will be mandatory in end game (kinda already were, but those trying to avoid AY by being Khajiit are about to get knocked down in DPS).
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on February 13, 2019 10:55PM
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.

    I don't really think this is true. Especially as it pertains to class selection.

    In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

    Let's take a hypothetical build. We'll say it's a stamsorc with 70% crit chance and 85% crit damage modifier (50% base + 10% Minor Force + 20% Precise Strikes + 5% Major Force @ 33% uptime):

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.26% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.7) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.39% damage increase

    Now let's take the same hypothetical build and pretend it's a stamblade, so we'll add +10% critical damage and +4% critical chance (that's two Assasination abilities slotted), making a total 74% crit chance and 95% crit damage modifier:

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.95) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.46% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.74) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.34% damage increase

    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).

    @LiquidPony I partially agree with you, but I think there’s more to it than that. We can both agree for sure that Templars were affected worst, since they have no Crit Chance bonuses, but already had 10% Crit Damage. For 2 classes with the same gear, Nightblade would probably be affected worse than something like Sorcerer. However, nobody builds these classes the same because they have different bonuses, Sorcerers have a high multiplier on Weapon/Spell Damage and need more sustain, Nightblades synergize better with Crit builds (they get Crit Chance and Crit Damage).

    For classes like Magsorc, MagDK, or Magwarden, 59.5% Spell Crit after buffs is probably the most common (with Thief and 7 divines). With a Crit Damage multiplier of about 1.87. So the 10% new Crit dmg bonus is about 3.9% damage increase. The old 8% Crit Chance was a 4.6% damage increase.

    This actually gets much worse if you consider the new Shadow Stone, the 3 non-crit magicka classes above then have 48.8% Spell Crit and a multiplier of 2.07 (this build gives them more damage than Thief). Now the 8% Crit Chance is a 5.6% damage increase, and the 10% Crit Damage is only 3.2%.

    It’s possible that the added Crit Dmg from Shadow would make these classes switch from their damage sets (Spellweave, Siroria, Moondancer, Necropotence, Spell Strat, Architect, etc) to something like Mother’s Sorrow or Mechanical Acuity, which would help mitigate the losses. But again, my point is more about pigeonholing builds than about net DPS losses.

    Magicka Crit-based DPS (most commonly nightblades) were already making use of high Crit Damage, and often had around 83.6% Spell Crit (with Thief) and 1.99 Multiplier. They gained 3.8% damage from the old 8% crit, and now get 4% damage from the new 10% Crit Damage.

    On the stamina side, Crit Chance is typically higher from daggers and Relequen, so the balance would be shifted a little toward Crit Damage as you said. Although Stam Sorc is still probably on the lower end of the benefit (compared to Nightblade) since they often skip a dagger for an axe (Sorcerers get more bleed damage from their Physical Damage % increase, and bleeds are helpful since they lack armor debuffs outside of optimized groups). Stamblades pick up 5% more Crit Chance from the 2nd dagger and usually 4% from class passives.

    For any stamina class, the Khajiit and Shadow changes make them even more reliant on Advancing Yokeda, which is not a positive change IMO. Especially since Relequen is pretty much required for all stamina classes, so now both 5-piece sets will be mandatory in end game (kinda already were, but those trying to avoid AY by being Khajiit are about to get knocked down in DPS).

    Adding 3% crit with the crit damage would help a lot I think.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
  • zaria
    zaria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.

    I don't really think this is true. Especially as it pertains to class selection.

    In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

    Let's take a hypothetical build. We'll say it's a stamsorc with 70% crit chance and 85% crit damage modifier (50% base + 10% Minor Force + 20% Precise Strikes + 5% Major Force @ 33% uptime):

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.26% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.7) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.39% damage increase

    Now let's take the same hypothetical build and pretend it's a stamblade, so we'll add +10% critical damage and +4% critical chance (that's two Assasination abilities slotted), making a total 74% crit chance and 95% crit damage modifier:

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.95) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.46% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.74) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.34% damage increase

    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).

    @LiquidPony I partially agree with you, but I think there’s more to it than that. We can both agree for sure that Templars were affected worst, since they have no Crit Chance bonuses, but already had 10% Crit Damage. For 2 classes with the same gear, Nightblade would probably be affected worse than something like Sorcerer. However, nobody builds these classes the same because they have different bonuses, Sorcerers have a high multiplier on Weapon/Spell Damage and need more sustain, Nightblades synergize better with Crit builds (they get Crit Chance and Crit Damage).

    For classes like Magsorc, MagDK, or Magwarden, 59.5% Spell Crit after buffs is probably the most common (with Thief and 7 divines). With a Crit Damage multiplier of about 1.87. So the 10% new Crit dmg bonus is about 3.9% damage increase. The old 8% Crit Chance was a 4.6% damage increase.

    This actually gets much worse if you consider the new Shadow Stone, the 3 non-crit magicka classes above then have 48.8% Spell Crit and a multiplier of 2.07 (this build gives them more damage than Thief). Now the 8% Crit Chance is a 5.6% damage increase, and the 10% Crit Damage is only 3.2%.

    It’s possible that the added Crit Dmg from Shadow would make these classes switch from their damage sets (Spellweave, Siroria, Moondancer, Necropotence, Spell Strat, Architect, etc) to something like Mother’s Sorrow or Mechanical Acuity, which would help mitigate the losses. But again, my point is more about pigeonholing builds than about net DPS losses.

    Magicka Crit-based DPS (most commonly nightblades) were already making use of high Crit Damage, and often had around 83.6% Spell Crit (with Thief) and 1.99 Multiplier. They gained 3.8% damage from the old 8% crit, and now get 4% damage from the new 10% Crit Damage.

    On the stamina side, Crit Chance is typically higher from daggers and Relequen, so the balance would be shifted a little toward Crit Damage as you said. Although Stam Sorc is still probably on the lower end of the benefit (compared to Nightblade) since they often skip a dagger for an axe (Sorcerers get more bleed damage from their Physical Damage % increase, and bleeds are helpful since they lack armor debuffs outside of optimized groups). Stamblades pick up 5% more Crit Chance from the 2nd dagger and usually 4% from class passives.

    For any stamina class, the Khajiit and Shadow changes make them even more reliant on Advancing Yokeda, which is not a positive change IMO. Especially since Relequen is pretty much required for all stamina classes, so now both 5-piece sets will be mandatory in end game (kinda already were, but those trying to avoid AY by being Khajiit are about to get knocked down in DPS).

    Adding 3% crit with the crit damage would help a lot I think.
    Do not, that would make Khajiit more OP gankers and as gankers is the most hated playstyle who would generate hate and nerfs down the line.
    Buff resources or sustain instead, more general useful.
    Perhaps a bit crit chance but don't know how it will interact with crit damage, also too many pasives?
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Wolf_Watching
    Wolf_Watching
    ✭✭✭✭
    zaria wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    For some reason people seem to think there is some key functional difference between crit and crit damage.

    On any build they will act almost functionally identically. Your proc sets may take another tiny fraction of a second to proc if they're based on crits, thats about it.

    The fundamental difference is what you need to do to your build in order to best use the racial passive.

    With Khajiit crit chance, builds were obligated to invest in Crit Damage since they crit more often than other races. This usually meant using Channeled Acceleration or Trap, investing some CPs in Crit Damage, being near Warhorns. All universally good ideas that don’t really limit your build at all. Some took it a little farther and would use only Nightblades or Templars because they get even more Crit Damage. The main thing that was mandatory on PTS was the Shadow Mundus, but I would argue that is because it was overbuffed.

    Note that in the above example, you could pretty much wear any gear you want, play multiple classes, and if the Shadow Stone was adjusted back down then several Mundus Stones would be viable.

    With Khajiit given Crit Damage, you have to do the opposite, stack as much into Crit Chance as possible. This effectively mandates the use of one or more sets like Advancing Yokeda or Mother’s Sorrow. It also means that Khajiit effectiveness is tied to using the Thief Mundus Stone. Daggers are needed on Stamina builds. And Nightblade is suddenly the best option for Khajiit, since they get about 4-6% higher crit chance than other classes.

    This is much more restrictive of build, since you’re pushed into certain sets, Mundus Stone, and one class.

    Of course nobody is forced to follow any of this, but ignoring it means not making the best use of Khajiit passives, and then you may as well be another race.

    Resulting DPS won’t be much different either way, it’s just the amount of diversity and freedom allowable to reach that same DPS.

    I don't really think this is true. Especially as it pertains to class selection.

    In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

    Let's take a hypothetical build. We'll say it's a stamsorc with 70% crit chance and 85% crit damage modifier (50% base + 10% Minor Force + 20% Precise Strikes + 5% Major Force @ 33% uptime):

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.26% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.7) / (1 + 0.85 * 0.7) = 4.39% damage increase

    Now let's take the same hypothetical build and pretend it's a stamblade, so we'll add +10% critical damage and +4% critical chance (that's two Assasination abilities slotted), making a total 74% crit chance and 95% crit damage modifier:

    Old passive (+8% crit chance) = 1 + (0.08 * 0.95) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.46% damage increase
    New passive (+10% crit damage) = 1 + (0.1 * 0.74) / (1 + 0.95 * 0.74) = 4.34% damage increase

    So the difference is small either way, but in fact the new passive is in most cases a nerf for Nightblades (and Templars) and a buff for everyone else.

    So really the exact opposite is true: previously NB/Templar was the best choice for Khajiit because the built-in +10% crit modifier synergized well with the additional crit. Now, it's the other way around because you get less out of the new Khajiit +10% crit damage bonus if your crit damage modifier is already high (as it is on Templars/Nightblades).

    @LiquidPony I partially agree with you, but I think there’s more to it than that. We can both agree for sure that Templars were affected worst, since they have no Crit Chance bonuses, but already had 10% Crit Damage. For 2 classes with the same gear, Nightblade would probably be affected worse than something like Sorcerer. However, nobody builds these classes the same because they have different bonuses, Sorcerers have a high multiplier on Weapon/Spell Damage and need more sustain, Nightblades synergize better with Crit builds (they get Crit Chance and Crit Damage).

    For classes like Magsorc, MagDK, or Magwarden, 59.5% Spell Crit after buffs is probably the most common (with Thief and 7 divines). With a Crit Damage multiplier of about 1.87. So the 10% new Crit dmg bonus is about 3.9% damage increase. The old 8% Crit Chance was a 4.6% damage increase.

    This actually gets much worse if you consider the new Shadow Stone, the 3 non-crit magicka classes above then have 48.8% Spell Crit and a multiplier of 2.07 (this build gives them more damage than Thief). Now the 8% Crit Chance is a 5.6% damage increase, and the 10% Crit Damage is only 3.2%.

    It’s possible that the added Crit Dmg from Shadow would make these classes switch from their damage sets (Spellweave, Siroria, Moondancer, Necropotence, Spell Strat, Architect, etc) to something like Mother’s Sorrow or Mechanical Acuity, which would help mitigate the losses. But again, my point is more about pigeonholing builds than about net DPS losses.

    Magicka Crit-based DPS (most commonly nightblades) were already making use of high Crit Damage, and often had around 83.6% Spell Crit (with Thief) and 1.99 Multiplier. They gained 3.8% damage from the old 8% crit, and now get 4% damage from the new 10% Crit Damage.

    On the stamina side, Crit Chance is typically higher from daggers and Relequen, so the balance would be shifted a little toward Crit Damage as you said. Although Stam Sorc is still probably on the lower end of the benefit (compared to Nightblade) since they often skip a dagger for an axe (Sorcerers get more bleed damage from their Physical Damage % increase, and bleeds are helpful since they lack armor debuffs outside of optimized groups). Stamblades pick up 5% more Crit Chance from the 2nd dagger and usually 4% from class passives.

    For any stamina class, the Khajiit and Shadow changes make them even more reliant on Advancing Yokeda, which is not a positive change IMO. Especially since Relequen is pretty much required for all stamina classes, so now both 5-piece sets will be mandatory in end game (kinda already were, but those trying to avoid AY by being Khajiit are about to get knocked down in DPS).

    Adding 3% crit with the crit damage would help a lot I think.
    Do not, that would make Khajiit more OP gankers and as gankers is the most hated playstyle who would generate hate and nerfs down the line.
    Buff resources or sustain instead, more general useful.
    Perhaps a bit crit chance but don't know how it will interact with crit damage, also too many pasives?

    Lol. Quoting from a book or something. Too many passives is an excuse IMO. Can you do a test for me with the current passive and swapping in and out a piece of medium or something. I really want to know how this fairs.
    If This Iz Mispelld, I Totelly Mint to Due Tht.
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