Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Streega wrote: »

but even for me well organised group of players who know what they're doing is not a "blob" or "zerg" - they are exactly what PvP should be about.

Blindly following the person in front of you while spamming the same one or two skills with no regard for who or what you are attacking or what is going on around you is certainly not what PVP should be about. I’d liken them to a meatbag catapult with legs but with the catapult you at least have to aim. Do you know what the best way to avoid a ballgroup heading directly towards you is? Take a couple steps to the left or right.

Taking a few steps to the left or right often works when an organized raid is bearing down on you.

But its not because the organized raid is brainless. Its because they've got a target - usually the largest mass of players - and you just took yourself out of the target zone. Turning aside from their target to swat you is a little like swerving a semi to hit a squirrel. Even if they notice you get out of the way, there's not much point to stopping their attack and movement to swat one player who got out of the way. If you turn out to be a threat, its easy to turn and deal with you after they've dealt with their target.

Or to go with your seige analogy, its a little like swinging your scattershot away from a contested breach to siege the ganker off to the side. Smacking down one player who got out of the thick of the fray is a bad use of their effort. Most raid leads aren't going to divert their team to focus the one guy who roll dodged out of the way when there's a bunch of people who didn't right in front of them - that's smart tactics for a team, not brainless nor blind to the guy who got out of the way.


Organized raid play, at least in the good organized guilds, is never as brainless as people like to claim. Its specialized, certainly, but not brainless. Its a team effort and one that requires active, if specialized, participation from all members of the team.

Given that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 players, when I think of what I want out of Cyrodiil's large group content, I want raids where players are actively working together as a team to execute effective tactics.

Is there a specific scenario where razor caltrops are over performing? Stamina toons can dodge roll away or cast the 2h skill. Bow gives expedition 2h cleanses.

Magicka:

Dragonknight can cast reflect

Templar can cast cleanse

Sorcerer can teleport

Nightblade can stay invisible until they engage so they shouldn't be in a caltrop field to begin with but even if they somehow end up in one they can use Undo since Soul Harvest is so cheap.

Warden can Nature's Grasp away

In the abstract sense everybody should have a counter.

In an outer wall breach scenario purge spam and fire for effect siege gets you through a hole. If that is not enough create a second. For an inner breach or outpost breach each faction has their patented techniques for taking the keep/outpost without rapid maneuver.

I've seen slow motion snare wars before in mmos. It doesn't really seem to be a thing in ESO because gap closers and counter snares and not stacking in a snare field and pulls and stuns and teleports and dodges and all kinds of stuff that removes snares and siege and movement speed buffs and in general the way war battle lines work.

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Hold up, people don't even siege keeps on EU server? Or do you mean that they go for the doors? Those are still breaches, and in fact are way easier to get siege and snares down on because you can't cut the corners and push to the left or right. You have to go through that whole giant area. Maybe the countersiege game on EU is just weak, or maybe there are more people looking for a real fight and fewer point-and-click heroes, but on NA server we regularly have to go up against a dozen countersiege circles when coming onto a breach, PLUS the organized groups waiting inside to capitalize on the push.

They go for the doors, and yes, they're easier to defend, which was my point; they still go for the doors.

So if you're using Bolt Escape "just fine" against all that and the enemy group, then EU players on your server are just not living up to their potential. This is especially true if you're somehow able to disable all the enemy siege on your own just with Bolt Escape. Unless of course that's not actually what's happening and you're misrepresenting the state of things. I wouldn't know, I'm not on EU, but if you tried pulling that during primetime on PC Vivec you would be hella dead hella fast.

Like I said, I only have problems getting in when it's a door breach with a lot of counter siege. Wall breaches are fine.
That doesn't mean I can disable all the siege on my own, as long as the counter siege is still active there are so few attacking players inside that you immediately get all the randoms chasing you.

And you're acting like organized groups somehow aren't full of members with their own situational awareness, which is weird since I'm pretty sure we've been over that in other conversations in other threads. We don't just have one damage skill on our bars which we spam over and over on crown's orders. We have to dynamically respond to getting CC'd, changing heal responsibilities during negates, activating defensive ults, using a rare single-target ability for certain situations, reacting to getting pulled out of the group, and a host of other things. If your accusation is that organized players are not playing skillfully in addition to building skillfully then you're just completely out of touch.

I'm specifically not saying you can't be a great player in a zergball or that there are none of those. And I do agree in a good group it takes more than some people would like to admit. But that doesn't mean that the act of spamming rapids is somehow a very skillfull activity.

If your organized group is planning on taking a keep (and not just farming pugs), you will all have to slot some form of snare removal/immunity.

It will be a bit harder, but if the group defending is as disorganized as you say, then it will still be entirely doable, even if you are outnumbered.

Yeah i think i follow ya. Normal movement speed should be the norm.

Everything snares, roots, stuns and inturn major mobility is too available and retreating maneuvers is too powerful.

We must tone down/have less of everything that affects mobility thus making it both less impactful and yet more impactful at the same time?

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Lets look at a 'Rapid Spammer' role against your markers of what a good build / player should be doing:

Invididual Situational Awareness & decision making - They need to use this in order to survive due to the pressures on them, but as well as this they need to have awareness of how others in the group are, where the movement path is, enemy positioning for counters and assisting people who get stuck.
Counter opponents moves - Negate, Movement based countering all part of this build.
Resource management - Rapids has one of the most intensive resource management balances in the game. You cant focus only on returning resources because depending on the situation you may not have time to do so which means you have to judge when to store resources and when to just spend them, much in the way a dd would go through burst cycles.

So how are they not using skill to play this role? because some aspects are being supported by other players? Its like saying the striker in football doesn't use skill because he only focuses on scoring the goal in certain situations, not the setup or the defence.

but yeh lets just go with the "lol one button spec" responses instead

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Lets look at a 'Rapid Spammer' role against your markers of what a good build / player should be doing:

Invididual Situational Awareness & decision making - They need to use this in order to survive due to the pressures on them, but as well as this they need to have awareness of how others in the group are, where the movement path is, enemy positioning for counters and assisting people who get stuck.
Counter opponents moves - Negate, Movement based countering all part of this build.
Resource management - Rapids has one of the most intensive resource management balances in the game. You cant focus only on returning resources because depending on the situation you may not have time to do so which means you have to judge when to store resources and when to just spend them, much in the way a dd would go through burst cycles.

So how are they not using skill to play this role? because some aspects are being supported by other players? Its like saying the striker in football doesn't use skill because he only focuses on scoring the goal in certain situations, not the setup or the defence.

but yeh lets just go with the "lol one button spec" responses instead

No doubt there is some skill in that. You can play a fist fight with no skills optimally and gain an advantage that way, but it doesn't mean the skill ceiling is very high or the advantage is a large one.

One example of organized large scale pvp that came up in this thread now is players with the right builds for it moving through breaches first to disrupt defense enough for the rest to follow, and it happens to serve a similar purpose as part of a rapid spammer's job. What do you think takes more of these different aspects of skill we discussed - the role of a rapid spammer in a zergball, or that?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Lets look at a 'Rapid Spammer' role against your markers of what a good build / player should be doing:

Invididual Situational Awareness & decision making - They need to use this in order to survive due to the pressures on them, but as well as this they need to have awareness of how others in the group are, where the movement path is, enemy positioning for counters and assisting people who get stuck.
Counter opponents moves - Negate, Movement based countering all part of this build.
Resource management - Rapids has one of the most intensive resource management balances in the game. You cant focus only on returning resources because depending on the situation you may not have time to do so which means you have to judge when to store resources and when to just spend them, much in the way a dd would go through burst cycles.

So how are they not using skill to play this role? because some aspects are being supported by other players? Its like saying the striker in football doesn't use skill because he only focuses on scoring the goal in certain situations, not the setup or the defence.

but yeh lets just go with the "lol one button spec" responses instead

Putting it simply the "Rapid Spammer" role should not exist. It only works if a group stacks within the radius and it proliferates a panzer blitzkrieg warfare in a game based in the medieval era. The role itself no matter how you spin it is mundane. For others groups to be on par they have to run the same mundane thing. Groups that run it are going to plateau. Their power level is going to stop at 8999 because of a specific role they have that only groups of the same type run. Thus against groups that don't run it it is slaughter. If rapid maneuver is removed your power level might drop to 8000 but then you start improving because you have to fight everything on more equal grounds. And then when the necromancer comes along which will probably have a res ult your power level might jump over 9000 and the combat you engage it might be more satisfying because you do what they do but you do it with a more difficult set-up than what they run that requires sharper play because you are supposed to be a high seeded guild.

Ruckly wrote: »

it proliferates a panzer blitzkrieg warfare in a game based in the medieval era.

There's a book in-game that describes a victory over the Dunmer by using mages skilled in Alteration to provide water breathing to the army, allowing the Dunmer's army to catch them completely by surprise by walking under water to the shore coast. So to claim that the game, or even the setting, is "based in the medieval era" is wildly inaccurate. There are shields and swords and bows, sure. There's also highly fantastical elements such as Tonal-powered robots, living "gods," and mages capable of providing artillery support among other benefits to their army.

Army vs. Army conflicts would look quite different than in our own world's Medieval era.

Ruckly wrote: »

The role itself no matter how you spin it is mundane. For others groups to be on par they have to run the same mundane thing.

Is it any more mundane than copy/pasted bombblade builds? If the person playing it is any good, then it goes far beyond just using a single skill, even if that skill is the most important one. And honestly, one could say the same thing about said bomb blades. They have more than one skill, but destro or soul tether are their most important one.

Ruckly wrote: »

Groups that run it are going to plateau. Their power level is going to stop at 8999 because of a specific role they have that only groups of the same type run. Thus against groups that don't run it it is slaughter. If rapid maneuver is removed your power level might drop to 8000 but then you start improving because you have to fight everything on more equal grounds.

Completely unfounded. Some guilds run 10+ damage dealers with the rest providing support, healing, etc, and roll over their enemies. Some do it with 6 damage dealers. The fact that the game's design around snares and immobilizations has made a Stamina Support build highly useful does not mean that guilds who run it are going to "plateau" BECAUSE they have one in their group.

Ruckly wrote: »

And then when the necromancer comes along which will probably have a res ult your power level might jump over 9000 and the combat you engage it might be more satisfying

Pure speculation, since there hasn't yet been 100% confirmation on the Necromancer skill set (remember, until it hits live, pretty much anything is subject to change). Further, your assumption that the addition of necromancers might be more satisfying is highly subjective. Satisfaction on an individual level is going to matter if the person in question enjoys playing the class. Satisfaction on a group level is going to matter if the class is worth a damn in a group composition scenario.

Ruckly wrote: »

because you do what they do but you do it with a more difficult set-up than what they run that requires sharper play because you are supposed to be a high seeded guild.

We're already in situations where different groups "do what others do" with different setups. Take a look at Fantasia, Omni, Drac, Iron Legion, and others. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that we all have damage dealers, healers, magicka and stamina support. But I would bet money that even if some aspects are similar, actual builds and group comps vary WILDLY, all with the intention of, again, "doing what others do." Succeeding at fights.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So I've seen two arguments in this wall of text that can't just be ignored as "I actually like that though":

A) It creates lag because keep fights take longer and
B ) it helps unorganized large groups while hurting organized zergballs, thereby decreasing the influence of player/group skill on the outcome of fights between them.

Well, I don't like lag any more than the next player, but neither do I like zergballs getting a free pass to cross a chokepoint. Make another breach if needed, send in players with Mistform/Bolt Escape to keep siege down long enough for the rest to enter, take another objective while the opposition is occupied. I'm sure you can think of something.

And on B ), that's just a really weird argument to make. Sure, I don't want skill to count for less, but "skill" in this situation is spamming a certain skill in a zergball. This is helping everyone you fight, whether they have more or less players, are more or less organized than you, more or less skilled than you. As long as they don't fit within a 20m radius with at least as many players as you do. Not like you'll now be at a disadvantage against unorganized players.

First, nobody is getting a "free pass" to cross a chokepoint anymore than defenders are getting "free damage and snares" by firing off their skills and siege at a breach. All of these actions cost something. Furthermore, the defenders can, should, and often do push onto people coming into the breach. The attackers are already having to deal with the snares, damage, and healing debuffs from siege and caltrops, and additionally run the very strong risk of getting pushed on at the moment of their greatest vulnerability. But you want to frame that as getting a "free pass" to push in, all because they can get temporary immunity to a single part of that equation? That's just dense, or intentionally misleading.

It's certainly not as bad as it used to be at some points in this game's history, but zergballs still have much better access to snare removal, purges and healing than any other playstyle. How often do you open another breach? Idk how it's on NA, but on EU it's even become somewhat rare to see any wall being sieged, mostly people just go for the gates (including the disorganized zergs, but they just die in the gate if there's some defense). Sure you are more vulnerable in the breach, but outside of fighting another zergball you can still pass fairly easily.

Recremen wrote: »

And you expect people to Mist Form or Bolt Escape to get in? Bolt Escape is right out, as you'll get immediately caught on debris (and is only available to Sorcs) and Mist Form, when it even works, is still only available to gross vampires. But hey, who cares about build diversity on your crusade against the dreaded "zergballs", right? Furthermore, how precisely do you expect people trying to get in to survive? You expect people to wait in a queue outside the wall and run in one by one to die to siege or the huge number of enemies on the other side, all while being out of range/line of sight of healing? No, of course not, people trying to get in are going to group together and support each other. Honestly it's so hard to tease out what your actual expectations are in your arguments, here and elsewhere. You seem to hate everything that works, and have this unnamed, ethereal expectation of what True Combat is going to look like, but can never give a realistic description of what you want to see or how it could possibly come to work in ESO.

I can get through pretty much any breach with Bolt Escape just fine. Gates layered with catapult AoE are a bit trickier but even that works most of the time.
I expect players to be just self sufficient enough to do things like that and survive reasonably well. The supporting between the players going in and the ones waiting outside just lies in creating a window of opportunity to enter.
And I don't hate everything that works. I just suggested things that have always been working since launch, just haven't been required much in large groups.

Recremen wrote: »

As to the "skill" argument, if it's not skillful to run good skills, develop builds that can best use them, and then coordinate with your team to get slots in the group filled with the right balance of players running the right builds for your needs, then I really don't know what should be considered skilled play in a group setting. Rapids works. Other snare removal effects work. If you aren't running them, but find yourself dying because of the situation that snares put you in, then you are not a skilled player. There's no other way to look at it. You can't make bad build decisions and then act like you're still skilled because you have above-average execution. Skill is a multi-part attribute, and having a good build is completely inseparable if we're using such umbrella terminology.

Creating good builds and group composition should be rewarded, but so should individual situational awareness, decision making, ability to counter opponent's moves, resource management etc. It doesn't make anyone a bad player to use what works, but neither does that always require "skill" to use effectively.

Lets look at a 'Rapid Spammer' role against your markers of what a good build / player should be doing:

Invididual Situational Awareness & decision making - They need to use this in order to survive due to the pressures on them, but as well as this they need to have awareness of how others in the group are, where the movement path is, enemy positioning for counters and assisting people who get stuck.
Counter opponents moves - Negate, Movement based countering all part of this build.
Resource management - Rapids has one of the most intensive resource management balances in the game. You cant focus only on returning resources because depending on the situation you may not have time to do so which means you have to judge when to store resources and when to just spend them, much in the way a dd would go through burst cycles.

So how are they not using skill to play this role? because some aspects are being supported by other players? Its like saying the striker in football doesn't use skill because he only focuses on scoring the goal in certain situations, not the setup or the defence.

but yeh lets just go with the "lol one button spec" responses instead

Putting it simply the "Rapid Spammer" role should not exist. It only works if a group stacks within the radius and it proliferates a panzer blitzkrieg warfare in a game based in the medieval era. The role itself no matter how you spin it is mundane. For others groups to be on par they have to run the same mundane thing. Groups that run it are going to plateau. Their power level is going to stop at 8999 because of a specific role they have that only groups of the same type run. Thus against groups that don't run it it is slaughter. If rapid maneuver is removed your power level might drop to 8000 but then you start improving because you have to fight everything on more equal grounds. And then when the necromancer comes along which will probably have a res ult your power level might jump over 9000 and the combat you engage it might be more satisfying because you do what they do but you do it with a more difficult set-up than what they run that requires sharper play because you are supposed to be a high seeded guild.

Lets bring a PVE example, maybe it helps your understanding.

If you are doing a trial with 6 instead of 12 and you have a comp which is 1 tank, 2 heal, 3 DD, you complete the hard mode of the trial with good results. Yet "raid group why bother" is running with 0 tanks 5 healers 5 DD and 2 random bow snipers and can't complete hard mode. Should your tank be removed from the game because its unfair for "raid group why bother" to compete with you? or because perhaps tanking in this scenario is considered by people who don't tank to be mundane or too easy?

It is player choice to run how you wish to. As it is player choice to run how we wish to. Its that simple. Every role is available to everyone in game. Removing one of these roles because someone else doesn't like it is just asinine.

People don't like groups in Cyro should all groups be removed?
People don't like Gankers in Cyro should they be removed?

Or is there a line which shouldn't be crossed because you approve of a certain style?

My understanding is sound. You don't need to worry about my understanding. If you do I think there are residual problems you yourself are worried about.

I am not going to do a dissertation on free will and the even higher more important ideas that make free will possible. I understand these ideas well enough. People have a choice to run or to not run a rapid spammer. Groups that do run one are more successful. When the next iteration of the game comes along people still have the choice whether or not they want to run a rapid spammer.

The notion that every group that wants to be successful needs to run a rapids spammer is an absurd one. It is a very specific very corridored game play; the idea which is indefensible. It might require some of this and some of that but it is a mundane support skill. You can fire off any abstract case scenario it doesn't even have to relate to ESO there can usually be fielded to anything a contradiction. If you say that rapid spamming is a very rich 12 button skill bar game play(I never said you have but you are defending it so I am going to make the proposition) I think that is absurd because the skill costs 8.1k stamina. Comparing it to bombers is also absurd because bombers are voluntary where as in a dedicated rapid spammer group which is more successful than a normal group; for it to be a dedicated rapid spammer group it requires a dedicated rapid spammer. Having a dedicated rapid spammer in your group is not optional if you are running a dedicated rapid spammer group. The counter to dedicated rapid spammer groups is bombers that is true and that play style is also mundane and really only exists because people stack.

I suppose to put it simply what do you lose if rapid maneuver is changed? The inability do defend your stack against an AoE snare? Don't stack. The non-invulnerability to movement speed reduction skills when you rush with destro ults and prox dets? I'm pretty sure you are good enough at this game to forgo something which I have seen used over and over to mow down people in glade and still be successful. Those people mowed down at glade don't have a dedicated rapid spammer. They are pug groups being exploited for AP gain? If you don't have snare/immobilize invulnerability do you think you can mow down pick up groups at glade over and over ignoring the flags as well as you do now? I think your success against other groups of similar composition will be about the same but your ability to stay inside a keep for 40 minutes moving down pugs will decrease if rapid maneuver is changed.

Since you mentioned well-written posts, I wanted to start this off by congratulating you on your post. Even if I disagree with points you make, I thought it was well thought out!

Undefwun wrote: »

As for OP couple things...as someone who only occasionally bothers with Cyro cos transmute stones, as my ping goes nuts when there is too many ppl around. I already play at least 0.2 to 0.5 seconds slower than US players in BGs, so at the most I skulk around the fringes of battles, sit on the reinforcement lines or 'aim and left click' because I literally can't do anything else useful for my faction and still lag out sometimes.

That unfortunately affects all of us. Speaking for my own guild, we try to avoid faction stacking intentionally unless it is absolutely necessary (because a certain EP guild seems to refuse to run fewer than 3 full raids grouped at the same location), because its often unnecessary, takes away from our own enjoyment of fights, and makes the server's cry silicon tears.

Undefwun wrote: »

a) Lot of talk about how hard it is to stay mobile for you, not a single mention of the sheer amount of snares and immobilizes your group throws out themselves. I am sure there is a 'specialist' or two just for that, no? The pugs don't have a snare removal or heal specialists and yall just roll over them. So unless you guys are totally not using any snares, can you really complain about having to adapt a little bit and still roflstomp 95% of the population? The snare issue is much more of a problem for non-organised group than it is for you.

The game is all about choices. If you choose to play solo, then you are accepting what that entails: having to rely on yourself for everything. We choose to play in a group, which allows us to specialize some of our folks and rely on others in our group for other aspects. So, yes, I feel its ok for us to bring up a change that's going to negatively affect not just us, but every single player.

Undefwun wrote: »

You talked about breaches alot which takes me to the next point....

b) Organised groups don't just play the war effort objective. You are not just taking keeps and resources and battling other organised groups in open field.
Often the sole purpose of organised groups is to farm, but lets use the more accurate term, "grief" as many non organised players as possible, run em through the meat grinder for AP. Tower humping, wall running, top of keeps turtling. You can not tell me it is in the slightest bit competitive or a contest for the most part. It's like smacking a bunch of toddlers around as fully grown adults and then patting yourselves on the back for being skilled. AP farming is pretty much griefing, ruining other peoples fun for your own amusement. Go watch any stream where a group is wiping pugs and tell me they all sound horrified and torn up about what they are doing.

What is the objective when say DC is on the inner, AD is trying to defend and then an EP group rolls in... doesn't just wipe DC and takes the keep. no they run the walls for another 15 minutes making sure DC and AD have time to respawn and come back for round 2 or 3. Half the time then that group of clown shoes running the walls doesn't even take the keep.. they hop off when ppl stop coming back and go pull the same crap somewhere else. Yup... pure trolling.

Again, I can only speak for our guild here (Recremen and I are in the same one). Sure, we do sometimes try to farm people in various locations (Ash milegate tonight), but the majority of our time is actually spent trying to get fights around the map while taking objectives. It's competitive when we're fighting other organized guilds, and very often that's who we're actually looking to fight. That's not going to stop us from killing a bunch of pugs at a keep we're trying to take. But we save most of our congratulations for when we win against other guilds known to us.

That being said, this is of course a legit complaint, as other guilds certainly farm players more often than not. So I'm not trying to say you concern here is unfounded, just saying that at the very least, we try not to engage in that too much.

Undefwun wrote: »

c) Groups always have strong heals. I am sorry but if I hurl at 20 foot burning log at high speeds into your group of 12-24 heroes at least ONE has to not be standing when it's done. Anything else is bovine excrement. Yet a quick purge and springs from 1 or 2 healers and not a scratch.
Or you get a couple of suicidal enemies hitting your flank. Respect to them for having the guts to try. You know what happens then. As soon as they get one guy low, POOF magic red clouds in the multiples and what mad skills is that right there? Great you can read set names and double click to equip. Top marks.

Its off topic, but Earthgore needs to be a PvE only set. There is no reward for taking on a group and watching it all just get washed away quite literally. BG, small scale or zerg, earthgore equipped = you are a flop, it needs to go. And no one is not gonna run it, because there will always be some troll running it anyway, so ZOS has to kill it off.

The sticking point to me is you guys know how OP Earthgore and other sets and mechanics are yet use it anyway.
Pretty sure every ball group runs a harmony build these days.

Sufficient coordination can negate any healing done, because if enough damage manages to land at the same time, no one is going to have time to even cast a heal to proc Earthgore because they'll be dead immediately. But that's hard to do if you're not also running in a group yourself... which is a choice people are making by not organizing.

For the record, I also dislike Earthgore and called for harsh nerfs to it from the start. But of course I'm not going to tell my guildies to not run it because we're not going to deliberately handicap ourselves.

And yes, Harmony gets used to greater or lesser degrees depending on the guild. We use what we're given, but that doesn't mean all groups run the same way, or that some of us don't also call for nerfs to things that are vexing small-man/solo players.

Undefwun wrote: »

I get the theory crafting part, building a larger thing from many moving parts... that's cool. It's fun to be part of something.

If it was Group vs Group... it wouldn't be an issue, but groups are crushing people with zero chance along the way, sometimes that's their express purpose and then act surprised when ppl want them gone and you get these bitter reactions.

But as a counter-point, Cyrodiil is currently the only place for those of us who enjoy playing in groups larger than 4 to engage in PvP. People who prefer smaller scale stuff have the option to duel or play battlegrounds. I would love to see more types of content available - even geared specifically toward - pvp groups of different sizes, but they just don't exist yet. So while I can also see frustration from people not playing in groups, I also don't think Cyrodiil should be balanced solely around their concerns just because they made the choice to play solo/ungrouped there.

There is literally nothing stopping them from doing what we're doing. We all had to start somewhere when it came to group play. We didn't magically become skilled players overnight or as soon as a few of us grouped up. There's a learning curve, it can be painful, you take a lot of hard knocks to get there. But it's doable for anyone.

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sacrifices should apply to everyone. If small scale groups are making big sacrifices to keep their mobility(keep in mind running FM means you drop a burst heal, shuffle equals medium armor plus a sustain hit to stamina, wings equals a massive sustain hit to magicka), then ball groups with much bigger size shouldn't have the same thing for basically free.

This is a well written rant, but that doesn't change the fact that its a selfish rant. If you truly cared about the overall quality of combat, you would make this rant for all the mobility nerfs , not just for rapids.

Edit: And lastly, if you and your ball group are truly so elite, I'm sure you will find a way.

That's sort of the root of the problem (pun intended).

ZOS nerfed mobility in Murkmire for everyone but raids. This made a massive imbalance where only raids had speed.

Therefore, ZOS had to adjust rapids to follow suit in Wrathstone. It's fair to fix the imbalance (that they created).

But ZOS hasnt taken any action on snares, roots, and stuns. So now everyone is slowed and suffering.

And IMO, its a lot harder for a large group of 12 to 24 players actually playing as a team to all stick together under a hail of snares at an objective than it is for a non-specialized small group to stick together in a battle they can win or for a mass of PUGs to blob up and vaguely move in the same direction.

Its why IMO, ZOS should have just nerfed swift and left movement and mobility otherwise alone.

But ZOS disagreed, and ZOS is delaying snare fixes, so now everyone is snared, slowed, and suffering.

So, congrats. I guess we all get to be miserable together?

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sacrifices should apply to everyone. If small scale groups are making big sacrifices to keep their mobility(keep in mind running FM means you drop a burst heal, shuffle equals medium armor plus a sustain hit to stamina, wings equals a massive sustain hit to magicka), then ball groups with much bigger size shouldn't have the same thing for basically free.

This is a well written rant, but that doesn't change the fact that its a selfish rant. If you truly cared about the overall quality of combat, you would make this rant for all the mobility nerfs , not just for rapids.

Edit: And lastly, if you and your ball group are truly so elite, I'm sure you will find a way.

That's sort of the root of the problem (pun intended).

ZOS nerfed mobility in Murkmire for everyone but raids. This made a massive imbalance where only raids had speed.

Therefore, ZOS had to adjust rapids to follow suit in Wrathstone. It's fair to fix the imbalance (that they created).

But ZOS hasnt taken any action on snares, roots, and stuns. So now everyone is slowed and suffering.

And IMO, its a lot harder for a large group of 12 to 24 players actually playing as a team to all stick together under a hail of snares at an objective than it is for a non-specialized small group to stick together in a battle they can win or for a mass of PUGs to blob up and vaguely move in the same direction.

Its why IMO, ZOS should have just nerfed swift and left movement and mobility otherwise alone.

But ZOS disagreed, and ZOS is delaying snare fixes, so now everyone is snared, slowed, and suffering.

So, congrats. I guess we all get to be miserable together?

Larger groups should be inherently harder to mobilize compared to a group of equally skilled group of smaller size.