Orc vs Bosmer (A PvP Comparison)

Vapirko · February 2019

Of the dedicated stamina races, as of the most recent patch, Orcs are being heralded as gods while Bosmer are being called the weakest. So, i jumped on PTS today to have a real look at the differences when it comes to the two races. PvP is my thing so I went and geared up my Orc and then race changed to Bosmer to show people what the differences really are in raw stats, as these are the two stamina races that seem most likely to get buffed or nerfed (I don't play and have never played Imperials, I know theyre in bad shape but Ive got nothing to offer on them).

I had Bone Pirate Tatter, Ravager and Bloodspawn equipped with a Nirnhoned 2H which is my basic setup. 10pts into Health and 54 into Stamina. All CP remained the same. I sue 3 tri stats and the rest stamina glyphs.

w/CP: Orc = 26.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k magicka ; Bosmer = 25.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k health

no/CP: Orc = 23.8k health, 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka ; Bostmer = 22.6k health 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka

No surprises there.

Now, I made some adjustments to weapon damage glyphs on my jewelry to see how it evens out with the different bonuses 258 wpn damage vs 258 stamina regen in CP.
I got it to this: Orc = 2020 Stamin Regen + 3145 Wpn Damage ; Bosmer 2148 Stamina Regen + 3058 Wpn Damage
Obviously you can tip the scales one way or the other if you want, but a very even trade

Im not gonna write down all the skills but let's just take the wonderful Dawn Breaker of Smiting. With these stats and adjustments Orc DBoS = 14.7k and Bosmer DBoS = 14.5k Virtually identical tooltip capability.

Now let's look at what's left.

Orc gets a 600 heal thats halved in PvP and let's be honest, this heal is nothing and it isn't going to make a lick of difference in either PvP or PvE. Bosmers get poison resistance which is situationally more useful, but pretty much only against Stamina DK and poison glyphs so whatever.

Speed! Orcs have a 10% increase (now working correctly), and 12% cost decrease but these things only work while sprinting and even with CP cost reductions sprinting will drain your stamina real fast. And if you have a gap closer like stamina NBs, sprint speed and reduction isn't really that useful or worth it. So this is much better on slower races like stamina DKs and Templars. Crit charge is not a must have ability these days and theres not really room for it on most builds.

Bosmers get a 10% overall speed boost after roll dodge for three seconds. This will be especially nice if you have access to cloak - keep in mind orc sprint speed bonus does not work in cloak. Could this be buffed to 4 seconds? Maybe, its hard to tell without testing it in a real open world PvP environment.

This brings us to Bosmer roll dodge and then penetration. This is a weird concept, its not going to be good for more than a hit or two providing you don't lag and needs to be changed. Could it be a permanent passive? Idk, the 10% damage from stealth was removed for good reason and giving it back in penetration doesn't make much sense. Im not sure of the math there.

Conclusion: It's really not that Orcs are super overpowered, its just that Bosmer has some weird passives. If ZOS fixed the penetration passive and the stealth detection passive (super useless) then Orcs and Bosmer's would be on the same level pretty easily. Theres no reason that reduced stealth detection was switched to increased stealth detection. Doesn't make sense. At any rate, I wanted to show people that aside from the missing health, which could easily be made up for with a change to the penetration passive and a return to the Bosmers improved stealth, things would be relatively equal. Certainly in terms of raw damage potential Bosmer's are very very close to Orcs due to the stamina regen/wpn damage trade off ability.

Other: In terms of raw DPS parses there will always be a top race, but I think that when those test are available, it will be immediately clear that the DPS applicable races are all within a very small margin of each other. I know some people don't like it but Nords, Imperial and Argonians will probably never be progression tier DPS. Can you still use one? Absolutely, but some races have to be for tanking and healing. Nords are in a good spot I think, Imperials need help, Argonians are okay, theyre good for a certain playstyle.

FrankonPC · February 2019

Bosmer pen passive needs to be reworked in my opinion but they're a good race and probably the best in slot for solo play.

Dark elf is nice, but if you're a stam class you're choosing orc over it every time. The mag utility of dark elf isn't that great in most situations. Imperial is just bleh. Every stam class or playstyle I think about I'd just rather be an orc or a bosmer.

Orc is strong in pvp in that every single build or play style can use this race and it will be really good. That's not the case for the other races.

I'm not saying they need a nerf, I just would like to see bosmer pen adjusted, imperial buffed and dark elf given a little something else.

eso_nya · February 2019

r u sure the wd and regen numbers r right? the way the stats r supposed to scale, the 258 difference should be there or bigger (e.g. +12% from medium armor; 20% from majors) depending on their placement in the formula. it should not be able for the difference to become smaller.

grannas211 · February 2019

Yeah. I agree. Wood Elf is just strange. No one wants roll to get penetration. I get the speed after a roll. But who wants to roll as a way to actively engage someone on top of rolling as your defense. May as well just hold down your roll button.

Zer0oo · February 2019

You forgot to adjust the hp

Edit:
The stats look kinda strange/wrong. can you check them again

Vapirko · February 2019

Zer0oo wrote: »

You forgot to adjust the hp

Edit:
The stats look kinda strange/wrong. can you check them again

How so? It’s 1k difference. And it’s coming out to almost exactly that on PTS. Could it be that it’s jsut not as bad as everyone thought? What seems wrong about it?

usmcjdking · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

You forgot to adjust the hp

Edit:
The stats look kinda strange/wrong. can you check them again

How so? It’s 1k difference. And it’s coming out to almost exactly that on PTS. Could it be that it’s jsut not as bad as everyone thought? What seems wrong about it?

Let's put it this way.

Orc is now the best ganking race.

Zer0oo · February 2019

First exactly 1k hp difference seems off considering you get% Multiplier. And that the hp difference gets bigger in no cp Seems also odd.

But you exactly made my point. You get more or less the same stats on both races but orc has more hp. And before you say it is irrelevant, It is not. It would allow you to get 1k more stam or just more tankyness. And so on

1k is not something small, considering the resource amount of stats we are talking in this race balancing.

From a pvp pov i just do not see how any other race comes close to orcs, except for special builds who make use of the special race bonus. Eg option passive

Vapirko · February 2019

Zer0oo wrote: »

First exactly 1k hp difference seems off considering you get% Multiplier. And that the hp difference gets bigger in no cp Seems also odd.

But you exactly made my point. You get more or less the same stats on both races but orc has more hp. And before you say it is irrelevant, It is not. It would allow you to get 1k more stam or just more tankyness. And so on

1k is not something small, considering the resource amount of stats we are talking in this race balancing.

From a pvp pov i just do not see how any other race comes close to orcs, except for special builds who make use of the special race bonus. Eg option passive

I’ll check the health again but I’m certain it’s extremely close. Again if they fixed the pen passive and reverted the stealth change it would be very similar to how it is now. Bosmers are niche races on live orcs are more generally appealing, how would this be different? Look I realize people are mad, maybe they don’t want to play orcs, more likely they’re just getting overwhelmed by what looks good on paper. Some streamer will release a build using Nords or Redguarss or Dunmers or whatever and people will forget they even said anything about Orcs. I know this is not a popular opinion but Orcs are not going to be overwhelmingly better. That will become apparent once the patch settles in, I guarantee it. I have one orc main and it’s going to stay that way. My stamblade/magblade switch toon is going Dunmer, my stamina DK is probably going to stay Redguard or go Nord for the ult gen synergy and that’s it.

Rikumaru · February 2019

A few things, you talk about high cost sprint for orc, sure it costs quite a bit of stamina but roll dodging costs more. Also I haven't seen many stam nbs slot ambush anymore because there are just better abilities to slot.

As for wood elf, either they should have the 1.5k pen apply perma or have the pen removed and have the 10% move speed apply perma. I just don't see why anyone would use wood elf over any other race right now since their passives are literally worth less.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

Ajax_22 · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

First exactly 1k hp difference seems off considering you get% Multiplier. And that the hp difference gets bigger in no cp Seems also odd.

But you exactly made my point. You get more or less the same stats on both races but orc has more hp. And before you say it is irrelevant, It is not. It would allow you to get 1k more stam or just more tankyness. And so on

1k is not something small, considering the resource amount of stats we are talking in this race balancing.

From a pvp pov i just do not see how any other race comes close to orcs, except for special builds who make use of the special race bonus. Eg option passive

I’ll check the health again but I’m certain it’s extremely close. Again if they fixed the pen passive and reverted the stealth change it would be very similar to how it is now. Bosmers are niche races on live orcs are more generally appealing, how would this be different? Look I realize people are mad, maybe they don’t want to play orcs, more likely they’re just getting overwhelmed by what looks good on paper. Some streamer will release a build using Nords or Redguarss or Dunmers or whatever and people will forget they even said anything about Orcs. I know this is not a popular opinion but Orcs are not going to be overwhelmingly better. That will become apparent once the patch settles in, I guarantee it. I have one orc main and it’s going to stay that way. My stamblade/magblade switch toon is going Dunmer, my stamina DK is probably going to stay Redguard or go Nord for the ult gen synergy and that’s it.

The racial passives are bugged on the current PTS. they are not being applied properly as base stats. Any data or testing made on racial is faulty data until this gets patched in on Monday.

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Of the dedicated stamina races, as of the most recent patch, Orcs are being heralded as gods while Bosmer are being called the weakest. So, i jumped on PTS today to have a real look at the differences when it comes to the two races. PvP is my thing so I went and geared up my Orc and then race changed to Bosmer to show people what the differences really are in raw stats, as these are the two stamina races that seem most likely to get buffed or nerfed (I don't play and have never played Imperials, I know theyre in bad shape but Ive got nothing to offer on them).

I had Bone Pirate Tatter, Ravager and Bloodspawn equipped with a Nirnhoned 2H which is my basic setup. 10pts into Health and 54 into Stamina. All CP remained the same. I sue 3 tri stats and the rest stamina glyphs.

w/CP: Orc = 26.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k magicka ; Bosmer = 25.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k health

no/CP: Orc = 23.8k health, 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka ; Bostmer = 22.6k health 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka

No surprises there.

Now, I made some adjustments to weapon damage glyphs on my jewelry to see how it evens out with the different bonuses 258 wpn damage vs 258 stamina regen in CP.
I got it to this: Orc = 2020 Stamin Regen + 3145 Wpn Damage ; Bosmer 2148 Stamina Regen + 3058 Wpn Damage
Obviously you can tip the scales one way or the other if you want, but a very even trade

Im not gonna write down all the skills but let's just take the wonderful Dawn Breaker of Smiting. With these stats and adjustments Orc DBoS = 14.7k and Bosmer DBoS = 14.5k Virtually identical tooltip capability.

Now let's look at what's left.

Orc gets a 600 heal thats halved in PvP and let's be honest, this heal is nothing and it isn't going to make a lick of difference in either PvP or PvE. Bosmers get poison resistance which is situationally more useful, but pretty much only against Stamina DK and poison glyphs so whatever.

Speed! Orcs have a 10% increase (now working correctly), and 12% cost decrease but these things only work while sprinting and even with CP cost reductions sprinting will drain your stamina real fast. And if you have a gap closer like stamina NBs, sprint speed and reduction isn't really that useful or worth it. So this is much better on slower races like stamina DKs and Templars. Crit charge is not a must have ability these days and theres not really room for it on most builds.

Bosmers get a 10% overall speed boost after roll dodge for three seconds. This will be especially nice if you have access to cloak - keep in mind orc sprint speed bonus does not work in cloak. Could this be buffed to 4 seconds? Maybe, its hard to tell without testing it in a real open world PvP environment.

This brings us to Bosmer roll dodge and then penetration. This is a weird concept, its not going to be good for more than a hit or two providing you don't lag and needs to be changed. Could it be a permanent passive? Idk, the 10% damage from stealth was removed for good reason and giving it back in penetration doesn't make much sense. Im not sure of the math there.

Conclusion: It's really not that Orcs are super overpowered, its just that Bosmer has some weird passives. If ZOS fixed the penetration passive and the stealth detection passive (super useless) then Orcs and Bosmer's would be on the same level pretty easily. Theres no reason that reduced stealth detection was switched to increased stealth detection. Doesn't make sense. At any rate, I wanted to show people that aside from the missing health, which could easily be made up for with a change to the penetration passive and a return to the Bosmers improved stealth, things would be relatively equal. Certainly in terms of raw damage potential Bosmer's are very very close to Orcs due to the stamina regen/wpn damage trade off ability.

Other: In terms of raw DPS parses there will always be a top race, but I think that when those test are available, it will be immediately clear that the DPS applicable races are all within a very small margin of each other. I know some people don't like it but Nords, Imperial and Argonians will probably never be progression tier DPS. Can you still use one? Absolutely, but some races have to be for tanking and healing. Nords are in a good spot I think, Imperials need help, Argonians are okay, theyre good for a certain playstyle.

Ok. How about giving ORc passives to bosmer and bosmer passives to Orc ?

Vapirko · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Of the dedicated stamina races, as of the most recent patch, Orcs are being heralded as gods while Bosmer are being called the weakest. So, i jumped on PTS today to have a real look at the differences when it comes to the two races. PvP is my thing so I went and geared up my Orc and then race changed to Bosmer to show people what the differences really are in raw stats, as these are the two stamina races that seem most likely to get buffed or nerfed (I don't play and have never played Imperials, I know theyre in bad shape but Ive got nothing to offer on them).

I had Bone Pirate Tatter, Ravager and Bloodspawn equipped with a Nirnhoned 2H which is my basic setup. 10pts into Health and 54 into Stamina. All CP remained the same. I sue 3 tri stats and the rest stamina glyphs.

w/CP: Orc = 26.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k magicka ; Bosmer = 25.6k health, 36.2k stamina, 11.5k health

no/CP: Orc = 23.8k health, 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka ; Bostmer = 22.6k health 31.7k stamina, 9.6k magicka

No surprises there.

Now, I made some adjustments to weapon damage glyphs on my jewelry to see how it evens out with the different bonuses 258 wpn damage vs 258 stamina regen in CP.
I got it to this: Orc = 2020 Stamin Regen + 3145 Wpn Damage ; Bosmer 2148 Stamina Regen + 3058 Wpn Damage
Obviously you can tip the scales one way or the other if you want, but a very even trade

Im not gonna write down all the skills but let's just take the wonderful Dawn Breaker of Smiting. With these stats and adjustments Orc DBoS = 14.7k and Bosmer DBoS = 14.5k Virtually identical tooltip capability.

Now let's look at what's left.

Orc gets a 600 heal thats halved in PvP and let's be honest, this heal is nothing and it isn't going to make a lick of difference in either PvP or PvE. Bosmers get poison resistance which is situationally more useful, but pretty much only against Stamina DK and poison glyphs so whatever.

Speed! Orcs have a 10% increase (now working correctly), and 12% cost decrease but these things only work while sprinting and even with CP cost reductions sprinting will drain your stamina real fast. And if you have a gap closer like stamina NBs, sprint speed and reduction isn't really that useful or worth it. So this is much better on slower races like stamina DKs and Templars. Crit charge is not a must have ability these days and theres not really room for it on most builds.

Bosmers get a 10% overall speed boost after roll dodge for three seconds. This will be especially nice if you have access to cloak - keep in mind orc sprint speed bonus does not work in cloak. Could this be buffed to 4 seconds? Maybe, its hard to tell without testing it in a real open world PvP environment.

This brings us to Bosmer roll dodge and then penetration. This is a weird concept, its not going to be good for more than a hit or two providing you don't lag and needs to be changed. Could it be a permanent passive? Idk, the 10% damage from stealth was removed for good reason and giving it back in penetration doesn't make much sense. Im not sure of the math there.

Conclusion: It's really not that Orcs are super overpowered, its just that Bosmer has some weird passives. If ZOS fixed the penetration passive and the stealth detection passive (super useless) then Orcs and Bosmer's would be on the same level pretty easily. Theres no reason that reduced stealth detection was switched to increased stealth detection. Doesn't make sense. At any rate, I wanted to show people that aside from the missing health, which could easily be made up for with a change to the penetration passive and a return to the Bosmers improved stealth, things would be relatively equal. Certainly in terms of raw damage potential Bosmer's are very very close to Orcs due to the stamina regen/wpn damage trade off ability.

Other: In terms of raw DPS parses there will always be a top race, but I think that when those test are available, it will be immediately clear that the DPS applicable races are all within a very small margin of each other. I know some people don't like it but Nords, Imperial and Argonians will probably never be progression tier DPS. Can you still use one? Absolutely, but some races have to be for tanking and healing. Nords are in a good spot I think, Imperials need help, Argonians are okay, theyre good for a certain playstyle.

Ok. How about giving ORc passives to bosmer and bosmer passives to Orc ?

As I said if you fixed up the stealth passive and pen passive and I was interested in stealth gameplay that would be fine, although idk why you’d do that. Bosmer has always been the stealth gameplay choice. That’s how it is on live. What people don’t seem to understand is that races are going to play very similarly to how they are now.

Vapirko · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

But then why haven’t people been complaining about Bosmer this whole time? Because imo orc has always been better. Orcs have never been top dps races because they lacked sustain and that’s still the case. Tooltips on live are similar to PTS, almost the same if not a bit lower. Orcs has 4% melee damage boost before it’s virtually the same just now we have flat stats. Why is this so hard to understand? Bosmers have always been a stealth race, and if ZOS wants to revert that detection change then fine. But orcs have always had more health and more constant damage. Look if people are hoping for Bosmers and Imperials to become hard hitting damage race like orcs you’re going to be disappointed. Your time would be better spent suggesting ways for ZOS to keep the racial uniqueness of Bosmers as apposed to trying to make them like Orcs.

kojou · February 2019

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Vapirko · February 2019

kojou wrote: »

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Yes, that’s why I said if you reverted the stealth change and made the pen passive more useful then Bosmers would be in a virtual identical situation as they are on live, as are orcs.

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Yes, that’s why I said if you reverted the stealth change and made the pen passive more useful then Bosmers would be in a virtual identical situation as they are on live, as are orcs.

Orc is super OP. It should not go live like this. It will create havoc in PVP and ESO become laughing stock , which already is. Whoever say Orc is not OP is a complete noob and not fit for playing any PVP game other than ESO. Nothing further to discuss.

Vapirko · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Yes, that’s why I said if you reverted the stealth change and made the pen passive more useful then Bosmers would be in a virtual identical situation as they are on live, as are orcs.

Orc is super OP. It should not go live like this. It will create havoc in PVP and ESO become laughing stock , which already is. Whoever say Orc is not OP is a complete noob and not fit for playing any PVP game other than ESO. Nothing further to discuss.

Yeah, great points. You’ll definitely convince ZOS to make another balance pass this way

Priyasekarssk · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Yes, that’s why I said if you reverted the stealth change and made the pen passive more useful then Bosmers would be in a virtual identical situation as they are on live, as are orcs.

Orc is super OP. It should not go live like this. It will create havoc in PVP and ESO become laughing stock , which already is. Whoever say Orc is not OP is a complete noob and not fit for playing any PVP game other than ESO. Nothing further to discuss.

Yeah, great points. You’ll definitely convince ZOS to make another balance pass this way

Lets ZOS make this patch live. Cyrodil will be full of only orcs. Remember free race change !!!! All magic SORCs in AD will ditch almeter become Stamsorcs. All EP have ORC stamNBs . There is no need to convince. Whoever saying orc is fine will cry in forums.

Vapirko · February 2019

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

The thing is that all races are pretty close. It doesn't take much for one to have an advantage. In my opinion the 1000 health gives Orc an advantage over other choices. That, and every other passive they have is good.

On the Bosmer the regen is good and the max stam is good, but all the other passives are niche and situational. Nobody I know cares about a little extra detection radius. The movement speed after roll dodge is nice, but the penetration is such a short buff, and you can't really count it in your build because of that.

Yes, that’s why I said if you reverted the stealth change and made the pen passive more useful then Bosmers would be in a virtual identical situation as they are on live, as are orcs.

Orc is super OP. It should not go live like this. It will create havoc in PVP and ESO become laughing stock , which already is. Whoever say Orc is not OP is a complete noob and not fit for playing any PVP game other than ESO. Nothing further to discuss.

Yeah, great points. You’ll definitely convince ZOS to make another balance pass this way

Lets ZOS make this patch live. Cyrodil will be full of only orcs. Remember free race change !!!! All magic SORCs in AD will ditch almeter become Stamsorcs. There is no need to convince.

All I can say to this is lol.

likecats · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

But then why haven’t people been complaining about Bosmer this whole time? Because imo orc has always been better. Orcs have never been top dps races because they lacked sustain and that’s still the case. Tooltips on live are similar to PTS, almost the same if not a bit lower. Orcs has 4% melee damage boost before it’s virtually the same just now we have flat stats. Why is this so hard to understand? Bosmers have always been a stealth race, and if ZOS wants to revert that detection change then fine. But orcs have always had more health and more constant damage. Look if people are hoping for Bosmers and Imperials to become hard hitting damage race like orcs you’re going to be disappointed. Your time would be better spent suggesting ways for ZOS to keep the racial uniqueness of Bosmers as apposed to trying to make them like Orcs.

Flat weapon damage stats is a buff over 4% bonus melee damage.

It gets buffed 3 ways,
1) 4% melee damage is before all the other % based amplifiers, including CP. Realistically it was probably 2.5-3% bonus damage. 258 weapon damage on the other hand gets amplified by all the % based amplifiers, and is even stronger.
2) Weapon damage is not restricted to melee.
3) Weapon damage also improves your healing.

It should also be noted that weapon damage can be buffed by an insane amount by many builds (40%-45%), without any significant sacrifice.

That being said, they aren't OP by a large margin. If they bring down the 2000 stam to 1500, I'd say Orc will be pretty balanced without over-shadowing multiple other races.

Vapirko · February 2019

likecats wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

But then why haven’t people been complaining about Bosmer this whole time? Because imo orc has always been better. Orcs have never been top dps races because they lacked sustain and that’s still the case. Tooltips on live are similar to PTS, almost the same if not a bit lower. Orcs has 4% melee damage boost before it’s virtually the same just now we have flat stats. Why is this so hard to understand? Bosmers have always been a stealth race, and if ZOS wants to revert that detection change then fine. But orcs have always had more health and more constant damage. Look if people are hoping for Bosmers and Imperials to become hard hitting damage race like orcs you’re going to be disappointed. Your time would be better spent suggesting ways for ZOS to keep the racial uniqueness of Bosmers as apposed to trying to make them like Orcs.

Flat weapon damage stats is a buff over 4% bonus melee damage.

It gets buffed 3 ways,
1) 4% melee damage is before all the other % based amplifiers, including CP. Realistically it was probably 2.5-3% bonus damage. 258 weapon damage on the other hand gets amplified by all the % based amplifiers, and is even stronger.
2) Weapon damage is not restricted to melee.
3) Weapon damage also improves your healing.

It should also be noted that weapon damage can be buffed by an insane amount by many builds (40%-45%), without any significant sacrifice.

That being said, they aren't OP by a large margin. If they bring down the 2000 stam to 1500, I'd say Orc will be pretty balanced without over-shadowing multiple other races.

Now here’s an Orc balance response I can get behind. I will say that myself and others have been comparing tooltips on live vs PTS and the difference is very minor and in some cases lower. I think that will change when the new CP modifiers are patched in, but it will change for all races. I could live with a 500 stamina decrease once we see the parses with the new modifiers and it’s deemed necessary. Hopefully PTS won’t be down for four days again, and we can see some results by Tuesday. However, this would put them behind Altmers in DPS stats which is what everyone is comparing them to, and if Bosmers see a revert to their stealth passive and the penetration stat made into something actually useful, then Orcs could quickly fall behind instead of being brought in line. A nerf for orcs + a buff to other races would equal a double nerf.

BaylorCorvette · February 2019

likecats wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

But then why haven’t people been complaining about Bosmer this whole time? Because imo orc has always been better. Orcs have never been top dps races because they lacked sustain and that’s still the case. Tooltips on live are similar to PTS, almost the same if not a bit lower. Orcs has 4% melee damage boost before it’s virtually the same just now we have flat stats. Why is this so hard to understand? Bosmers have always been a stealth race, and if ZOS wants to revert that detection change then fine. But orcs have always had more health and more constant damage. Look if people are hoping for Bosmers and Imperials to become hard hitting damage race like orcs you’re going to be disappointed. Your time would be better spent suggesting ways for ZOS to keep the racial uniqueness of Bosmers as apposed to trying to make them like Orcs.

Flat weapon damage stats is a buff over 4% bonus melee damage.

It gets buffed 3 ways,
1) 4% melee damage is before all the other % based amplifiers, including CP. Realistically it was probably 2.5-3% bonus damage. 258 weapon damage on the other hand gets amplified by all the % based amplifiers, and is even stronger.
2) Weapon damage is not restricted to melee.
3) Weapon damage also improves your healing.

It should also be noted that weapon damage can be buffed by an insane amount by many builds (40%-45%), without any significant sacrifice.

That being said, they aren't OP by a large margin. If they bring down the 2000 stam to 1500, I'd say Orc will be pretty balanced without over-shadowing multiple other races.

I think that 4% melee damage on live plays a larger part than we think. Take a look at the table below. Even in this current PTS cycle where my weapon damage and max stam are both higher than live, my tool tips are (slightly) lower. Everything is exactly the same on PTS as live. For reference this is Clever Alch and Automations with Blood Spawn. 5 medium, 2 heavy. Now having said that, I'll take the PTS stats over live, as you mentioned it will make Vigor tool tips a little larger as well as ranged damage.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Well, thanks for those tests and you are right that difference in PVP is not that noticeable (though orc still have plain more HP, so if you take duel of two people with exact builds and exact skill orc will always win). But in PVE that difference is massive cause nobody needs 2100 stamina regen for PVE dps and in build oriented on WD orc will heavily prevail, and also 1k health allows to use regen food and still reach 17k minimum trial HP with ebon.
Maybe given CP change and that blue food will be "must have" those 1k HP will be pointless, but still 258 WD >> 258 recovery in PVE.
So to even things out, they must buff bosmer, dunmer and redguard with plain stats. I.e. increase dunmer resource further to 2k, and add 100 passive WD to redguard and bosmer.

But then why haven’t people been complaining about Bosmer this whole time? Because imo orc has always been better. Orcs have never been top dps races because they lacked sustain and that’s still the case. Tooltips on live are similar to PTS, almost the same if not a bit lower. Orcs has 4% melee damage boost before it’s virtually the same just now we have flat stats. Why is this so hard to understand? Bosmers have always been a stealth race, and if ZOS wants to revert that detection change then fine. But orcs have always had more health and more constant damage. Look if people are hoping for Bosmers and Imperials to become hard hitting damage race like orcs you’re going to be disappointed. Your time would be better spent suggesting ways for ZOS to keep the racial uniqueness of Bosmers as apposed to trying to make them like Orcs.

Well, this is mostly about people psychology. When players selected bosmer, they were mostly aware that in standard builds bosmer is plainly inferior to redguard in PVE and orc in PVP. But - bosmer on live has best ability to stack stamina recovery and bonus damage from stealth, so was way to go for gankers in PVP. On casuals/RP side people selected bosmer because of that unique small height and improved stealth radius. So it was their own choice to select niche race. Now when ZOS stated "we will rebalance everything so any race can fit any role", i.e. all races will be more or less equal within role, and still loads bosmer with most useless passives like stealth detection and roll dodge penetration while removing disease resistance. But ok, in 4.3.0 bosmer at least looked like competitive in plain stats, but even that was ruined cause orc, dunmer and redguard and khajiit - everyone was buffed and bosmer was nerfed.
So it's understandable that both PVP and RP crowd is infuriated by this, this is not a bosmer we created.

Stx · February 2019

And then you have imperial...

Dalsinthus · February 2019

Interesting thread. I agree with those saying that Bosmer has too many niche passives. The stam and recovery will be a stat buff compared to live for most builds. But everything else they bring is too narrow and contingent to be all that useful.

The loss of the stealth bonuses really hurts from a lore and flavor perspective as well as for gameplay. I would add those back - it's fine for there to be two stealthy races. Bosmer and Khajit will be distinct regardless of whether or not they share this passive. Bosmer have consistently been a sneaky race in other ES games; some people picked the race because of this. Let them keep this passive.

The poison damage reduction is OK but it's not a common enough damage type to get excited about - Dunmer, Nord and Breton all offer better defensive passives. In prior ES games Bosmer were more resistant to disease and it hurts to lose that passive. The healing reduction from the disease condition is a bigger threat than the dot from a poison status effect.

The hunter's eye passive is not good. A short burst of speed upon roll dodge is OK and will see occasional use. The rest is garbage - stealth detect and a minor, short duration pen buff when you're actively defending. The cost of dodge roll and loss of a GCD is not worth 1-2 attacks with 1500 better pen. I would trade all of this to just have the reduced stealth radius back.

Bosmer will be in a better place in terms of dps next patch compared to live. They won't be that far behind other races in terms of dps. But they'll still be inferior to other choices, including Orc, Redguard, and Khajit. All three of those races offer similar dps with more universally useful passives to complement them.

olsborg · February 2019

FrankonPC wrote: »

I just would like to see bosmer pen adjusted, imperial buffed and dark elf given a little something else.

Yea agree. Bosmer passive should be permanent or just change it to resists on dodge perhaps. Id also prefer snare immunity on dodge.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

olsborg wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I just would like to see bosmer pen adjusted, imperial buffed and dark elf given a little something else.

Yea agree. Bosmer passive should be permanent or just change it to resists on dodge perhaps. Id also prefer snare immunity on dodge.

Yes, my opinion is that given how weaker are bosmers plain stats, they deserve snare removal and 2 seconds of snare immunity on roll dodge, instead of 10% speed, penetration and omg stealth detection. Then bosmer will be good counter to cancerous snare spamming, have great active survival ability in PVE but slightly weaker in raw power.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Stx wrote: »

And then you have imperial...

Well, don't forget about new scaling of CP bonus for food and 5th set bonus... 2000 health will be 2400 and so with one or two health glyphs you may go for lava foot soup which also will scale of CP.. so it will be like 6k stamina and 457 recovery from food while losing ~1.2k stamina from enchantments.. that means that imperial will have somewhat smaller stamina and health then other stamraces running blue food, but will have those of 457 scalable stamrecovery.. which is massive. We need them to fix PTS and test this, but i got a feeling that imperial stamsorc werewolf with hulking draugr will reap a lot of orsi-"mer" smug faces

Vapirko · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

And then you have imperial...

Well, don't forget about new scaling of CP bonus for food and 5th set bonus... 2000 health will be 2400 and so with one or two health glyphs you may go for lava foot soup which also will scale of CP.. so it will be like 6k stamina and 457 recovery from food while losing ~1.2k stamina from enchantments.. that means that imperial will have somewhat smaller stamina and health then other stamraces running blue food, but will have those of 457 scalable stamrecovery.. which is massive. We need them to fix PTS and test this, but i got a feeling that imperial stamsorc werewolf with hulking draugr will reap a lot of orsi-"mer" smug faces

This is very true and something people forget. They will be in a much better spot. I really think ZOS has got this one in the bag and that even though people aren’t in the habit of trusting them, the new team is up to good things.