[Enchantment changes - PvE] - STOP nerfing stamina in endgame pve content!!!

Letho2469 · January 2019

Enchantment changes hit stamina players since they use dual wield. 2h weapons are not even near to being a viable replacement. Nothing changes for magicka users => relative buff. Can you please stop buffing magicka dps into nirvana while keeping stamina players untouched?

Magblades and magplars can pull off nearly the same numbers as stamina characters in turret encounters while offering a HUGE range/positioning advantage in most movement heavy trials - lets not even talk about survivability and support. Melees ALWAYS need to pull off more dps than ranges to compete, please finally get that *** balanced, I dont wanna hear "oh you want a raid? kewl, bring magicka m8y =D" anymore.

Qbiken · January 2019

Stamina nightblade needs to be deleted from endgame pve, change my mind

MassTerror23 · January 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Stamina nightblade needs to be deleted from endgame pve, change my mind

100% agree

Letho2469 · January 2019

Stamblades are another issue that is not related to 1h enchants but to the class's execute capabilities. No reason to destroy all other melees and stam melees esp. Change my mind (lol).

Olupajmibanan · January 2019

For stamDPs, you'll probably want to switch traits on DW and put alchemical poison.

But for a tank, you are forced to wear a staff on back to not lose full Crusher enchantment.

What I wanted to say, this change somewhat nerf stamina DPs, but for tanks, it changes playstyle.

Ruinhorn · January 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Stamina nightblade needs to be deleted from endgame pve, change my mind

3 years ago for a sNB it was easier do delete himself, because it was the weakest and unwanted class both in PvP and PvE. Not as sorcrs with stacking insane amount of shields (=second hp bar). Well, in the past...

No, since beta I deserve to play a strong class which is not as outperformed as others say. Should I mention melee-hate boss mechanics which any range DD easily avoids? Higher risks - greater reward, yes?

Letho2469 · February 2019

PTS 2 weeks online and not even one little word about this issue. Magicka skyrocketing through the roof with ~57k self buffed pet sorcs. Can we pls do sth. about this (before! the new trials hits pts!) ?... @ZOS_Gilliam

Screamo · February 2019

@Letho2469 So almost 100k single target is fine?

LiquidPony · February 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

PTS 2 weeks online and not even one little word about this issue. Magicka skyrocketing through the roof with ~57k self buffed pet sorcs. Can we pls do sth. about this (before! the new trials hits pts!) ?... @ZOS_Gilliam

A 57k self-buffed petsorc has Major Breach, Minor Prophecy, Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance. All stam specs will be over 60k with equivalent buffs.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

For stamDPs, you'll probably want to switch traits on DW and put alchemical poison.

But for a tank, you are forced to wear a staff on back to not lose full Crusher enchantment.

What I wanted to say, this change somewhat nerf stamina DPs, but for tanks, it changes playstyle.

Alchemical Poisons don't stack on a target so they're off the table for PvE.

Austinseph1 · February 2019

It’s a fair adjustment.. they can adjust the classes if they fall behind just because of this, or suppress off hand enchantments if that works better. It’s a pretty logical balance move. Maybe the suppression of the off hand would be better for tanks or something. This would save you having to make 2 enchantments that only do half of what it would on a different weapon.

John_Falstaff · February 2019

Austinseph1 wrote: »

It’s a fair adjustment.. they can adjust the classes if they fall behind just because of this, or suppress off hand enchantments if that works better. It’s a pretty logical balance move. Maybe the suppression of the off hand would be better for tanks or something. This would save you having to make 2 enchantments that only do half of what it would on a different weapon.

That's the gist of why it's a tremendously stupid move. Enchantments don't stack. You can't make two berserkers or two poison glyphs and place on different weapons. All enchantments on your both bars must be different, so you can't "assemble" a single enchant of full strength from two halves.

LordTareq · February 2019

They should add a passive to the one-handed skill line that doubles the enchant effect. That way they nerf dual wield without touching tanks. Unless someone can explain here to me how the enchant on sword/shield was somehow incredibly overpowered in PvP.

Letho2469 · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

PTS 2 weeks online and not even one little word about this issue. Magicka skyrocketing through the roof with ~57k self buffed pet sorcs. Can we pls do sth. about this (before! the new trials hits pts!) ?... @ZOS_Gilliam

A 57k self-buffed petsorc has Major Breach, Minor Prophecy, Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance. All stam specs will be over 60k with equivalent buffs.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

For stamDPs, you'll probably want to switch traits on DW and put alchemical poison.

But for a tank, you are forced to wear a staff on back to not lose full Crusher enchantment.

What I wanted to say, this change somewhat nerf stamina DPs, but for tanks, it changes playstyle.

Alchemical Poisons don't stack on a target so they're off the table for PvE.

Does in no way compensate for dps loss in trials due to movement, blocking mechanics and/or teleporting or reseting (relequen!) bosses. Melees do less dps, have less survivability and are unviable where they should do more dps (on a tank'n'spank encounter), have equal survivability and should be viable.

RusevCrush · February 2019

Melee's high risk needs to offer high reward. Otherwise why bother. mNB is way to close to sNB to be consider "high" reward.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

PTS 2 weeks online and not even one little word about this issue. Magicka skyrocketing through the roof with ~57k self buffed pet sorcs. Can we pls do sth. about this (before! the new trials hits pts!) ?... @ZOS_Gilliam

A 57k self-buffed petsorc has Major Breach, Minor Prophecy, Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance. All stam specs will be over 60k with equivalent buffs.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

For stamDPs, you'll probably want to switch traits on DW and put alchemical poison.

But for a tank, you are forced to wear a staff on back to not lose full Crusher enchantment.

What I wanted to say, this change somewhat nerf stamina DPs, but for tanks, it changes playstyle.

Alchemical Poisons don't stack on a target so they're off the table for PvE.

Does in no way compensate for dps loss in trials due to movement, blocking mechanics and/or teleporting or reseting (relequen!) bosses. Melees do less dps, have less survivability and are unviable where they should do more dps (on a tank'n'spank encounter), have equal survivability and should be viable.

What's your point?

Outside of vAS+2 and to a lesser extent vCR, stamina always does far more damage. In Craglorn Trials, MoL, and HoF, top groups stack as many stam DPS as possible (we see a lot of 8 melee MoL and HoF runs these days).

Magicka DPS certainly aren't hitting nearly 100k single target on stack and burn fights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caernrtGxbI

Letho2469 · February 2019

Magicka DPS certainly aren't hitting nearly 100k single target on stack and burn fights [...]

Who cares about stack'n'burn fights? That is ancient content from a time when ESO was not refined enough yet (craglorn + vMoL). I expect any future trials to be as mechanic intense as vCR. And mechanics always means movement and/or need for gap closers. And it's not only about dps. It's about everything. Most guilds do not accept stamina dds in vCR+3 and that is an indicator for absurd game design.

The way this game currently works designers always have to choose between challenging mechanics or melee friendly mechanics. That has to change.

Grimlok_S · February 2019

STOP getting carried by light attack procs in endgame pve content!!!

DarkPicture · February 2019

Its logical change, like traits have 50% value on 1h, from the beginning enchant should have this change. Im surprised they didnt touch nirnhoned which gives on 1h same value like on 2h

daedemrwb17_ESO · February 2019

The issue is Magplars and Magblades are over performing for magicka toons and Stamblades are just busted. Noticeable traits they all share are increased crit damage, reliable sustain, good damage pre-execute , and an insanely powerful execute.

BadShogun · February 2019

daedemrwb17_ESO wrote: »

The issue is Magplars and Magblades are over performing for magicka toons and Stamblades are just busted. Noticeable traits they all share are increased crit damage, reliable sustain, good damage pre-execute , and an insanely powerful execute.

This. Why not just buff all other classes to the same level? Either that, or nerf the classes that are doing crazy damage ( who decides what's crazy amounts of damage anyway? ) while buffing the ones that were not, this way they can meet in the middle.

LiquidPony · February 2019

Letho2469 wrote: »

Magicka DPS certainly aren't hitting nearly 100k single target on stack and burn fights [...]

Who cares about stack'n'burn fights? That is ancient content from a time when ESO was not refined enough yet (craglorn + vMoL). I expect any future trials to be as mechanic intense as vCR. And mechanics always means movement and/or need for gap closers. And it's not only about dps. It's about everything. Most guilds do not accept stamina dds in vCR+3 and that is an indicator for absurd game design.

The way this game currently works designers always have to choose between challenging mechanics or melee friendly mechanics. That has to change.

What does that have to do with anything? The premise of this thread is raw DPS, where stamina reigns supreme.

And vMoL HM and vHoF are both mechanically challenging Trials. And they're both much more interesting than the lame half-baked nonsense that is vAS and vCR.

daedemrwb17_ESO · February 2019

Liquid Stamblade reigns supreme. Did you see any other classes in Hodor's world records for vHRC and vMOL? No it was DK tanks, sorc/temp healer, and 8 Stamblades. If Stam reigns supreme where are the other stam classes hmm?

LiquidPony · February 2019

daedemrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Liquid Stamblade reigns supreme. Did you see any other classes in Hodor's world records for vHRC and vMOL? No it was DK tanks, sorc/temp healer, and 8 Stamblades. If Stam reigns supreme where are the other stam classes hmm?

Hodor's world records are irrelevant to 99.999% of the game population. If stamblades hit 200 DPS higher than the next highest class, they're going to run 8 stamblades. Not a new thing. For a while it was nothing but Jesus Beams. Then it was nothing but Pet Sorcs. Then it was nothing but heavy attack stamDKs.

And if stamblades reign supreme, then stam reigns supreme. Not really sure how that's even a question. Stamblade. Stam. It's in the name.

Besdies, if stamblades didn't exist, they'd just be running 8 stamdens.

And beyond that, the "mag vs stam" debate is silly in the first place. I doubt magDKs or magsorcs or magdens or magplars (for the past 2 years until very recently for the last) would agree that magicka is overperforming. It's stamblade > stamden > magblade/magplar, and everything else is dookie aside from some marginal utility they might provide (which top groups will just push off onto support roles, e.g., run a Warden offtank for Minor Toughness, run a Templar healer for PotL, and a Sorc healer for Minor Prophecy and the Conduit synergy).

Grom4e · February 2019

Browart wrote: »

Its logical change, like traits have 50% value on 1h, from the beginning enchant should have this change. Im surprised they didnt touch nirnhoned which gives on 1h same value like on 2h

you idiot???? here Nirn,one-handed weapons and so gives less damage than two-handed.

soynegroyque · February 2019

Ice/Lighting back bar was optional for a tank.
Now its a necessity

Letho2469 · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything? The premise of this thread is raw DPS, where stamina reigns supreme.

The premise of every thread that is about balance is class VIABILITY in endgame trials. And no i am not talking about a cyclic viability (you play class a) for 3 months, then class b) for another month and then you reroll again to class c) because those classes are seriously flavor of the month at that time), I am talking about every class being viable everywhere at the same time.

LiquidPony wrote: »

And vMoL HM and vHoF are both mechanically challenging Trials. And they're both much more interesting than the lame half-baked nonsense that is vAS and vCR.

This "half baked nonsense called vCR" is the first and only trial that introduced some true mechanics and got the game away from "stack on that position and nuke the boss with occasional movement" - few exceptions aside. So just stick to your boring old fashioned content if you like... vMoL is not 25% the challenge it was before the raid dps buffs.

daedemrwb17_ESO wrote: »

The issue is Magplars and Magblades are over performing for magicka toons and Stamblades are just busted. Noticeable traits they all share are increased crit damage, reliable sustain, good damage pre-execute , and an insanely powerful execute.

Touché! Yet on the PTS you can add the pet sorc to that list while stamina melees got straight nerfs. That is why I am talking about overall balance in a topic that is actually about enchantments for dw. The latter is one facette of a much bigger problem.

daedemrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Liquid Stamblade reigns supreme. Did you see any other classes in Hodor's world records for vHRC and vMOL? No it was DK tanks, sorc/temp healer, and 8 Stamblades. If Stam reigns supreme where are the other stam classes hmm?

^This. Stam blades are overperforming without a doubt. It's ok as this class is harder to play than other classes (will proc). And it would be ok for magblades to be as good as them and being on top of all other stamina classes... BUT NOT while having high passive heal capabilities that marginalize all damage mechanics in trials, group support AND shields at the same time. nono.

LiquidPony wrote: »

[...]
And beyond that, the "mag vs stam" debate is silly in the first place. I doubt magDKs or magsorcs or magdens or magplars (for the past 2 years until very recently for the last) would agree that magicka is overperforming. [...]

You are absolutely right. This is not only a "stamina vs magicka" debate, it must be split into "melee vs ranged" for dps and "stamina vs magicka" for survivability! Melees always need to do more dps in a tank'n'spank fight to compensate for movement losses in mechanic intense trials (which, to repeat myself, I really hope will be the standard in the future, just not as "mini" trials, but full trials, but we will see with Elsweyr) and a valid way of surviving when not standing in the healing zones. But I would also be content if magicka survivability was nerfed instead, as long as both get to the same level. We could even change trial design, but as I stated before: Trials fit for current melee design will be boring like craglorn trials.

LiquidPony · February 2019

lol

What "true" mechanics does vCR have that aren't in prior raids?

The Shadow Realm mechanic is no more interesting than MoL backyard or HoF upstairs on Pinnacle Factotum. Are orbs any more interesting than bombers on the Triplets? Is stacking flame or swapping ice all that different from kiting meteors, moving cores out of group, kiting tethers, or stacking and moving for orbs on Rakkhat?

vCR is lame. Another lazy, one-room Trial that might've been cool as the finale of a real Trial. If DPS keeps climbing at the rate it has, before too long vCR will be just as trivial as MoL is now. Just look at vAS ... top groups clear +2 in ~6 minutes without even killing the minibosses! Immortal Redeemer is far less prestigious than Tick Tock Tormentor. Cloudrest is literally stack on that stupid fat toad's tail and burn it while cleaving down a priority add while part of the group splits off to run around and do something silly that will wipe the group if they fail. It's basically Rakkhat + The Twins in one fight, just less fun.

And none of this has anything to do with with DPS anyway. vAS just doesn't work well for melee DPS because you're not in melee range. vCR is less restrictive but you can't effectively handle orbs or creepers as melee DPS while maintaining stack. Doesn't really have anything to do with DPS, it's just the awful design of ESO's raids post-HoF. Wouldn't matter if every stam DPS did 20k DPS more than every magicka DPS, you still wouldn't use them in vAS or vCR.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2019

soynegroyque wrote: »

Ice/Lighting back bar was optional for a tank.
Now its a necessity

Or a bow. Totally viable back bar.

Letho2469 · February 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

lol

What "true" mechanics does vCR have that aren't in prior raids?

The Shadow Realm mechanic is no more interesting than MoL backyard or HoF upstairs on Pinnacle Factotum.

Interesting that you mention mechanics that were played by magicka ranges only on release while melees just stacked and smacked the dummy

LiquidPony wrote: »

Are orbs any more interesting than bombers on the Triplets?

I cant figure what fight you are talking about - "bombers" sounds like vHoF second last encounter - which I lik really very much - one of the few exceptions that I mentioned earlier.
[/quote]

LiquidPony wrote: »

Is stacking flame or swapping ice all that different from kiting meteors, moving cores out of group, kiting tethers, or stacking and moving for orbs on Rakkhat?

Yes, because on Rakkhat most mechanics are given to "special teams" (dunno how to express it better in english) that handle them while in vCR everybody has to pay attention to almost everything - shadow realm aside. It's just the density of mechanics and the mechanic types: Some are affecting one person who has to watch out for it, other mechanics affect all ppl at the same time (orbs, creepers, roarning flame) and they need coordination.
[/quote]

LiquidPony wrote: »

vCR is lame. Another lazy, one-room Trial that might've been cool as the finale of a real Trial.

Absolutely agreed, but selling only one boss as a full trial is a totally different topic from puting nice mechanics on it!

LiquidPony wrote: »

If DPS keeps climbing at the rate it has, before too long vCR will be just as trivial as MoL is now. Just look at vAS ... top groups clear +2 in ~6 minutes without even killing the minibosses! Immortal Redeemer is far less prestigious than Tick Tock Tormentor.

Very true. Yet I will never get my vAS+2 as I refuse playing a staff based dd

Bow is still not viable as I neither have any self heal with it nor shields.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Cloudrest is literally stack on that stupid fat toad's tail and burn it while cleaving down a priority add while part of the group splits off to run around and do something silly that will wipe the group if they fail. It's basically Rakkhat + The Twins in one fight, just less fun.

But it IS Rakkhat PLUS! the twins and not only Rakkhat OR twins. Don't really see where that could be less fun. If they combined Rakkhat and the twins into one fight (and retuned it ofc) vMoL would be nice, too.[/quote]

LiquidPony wrote: »

And none of this has anything to do with with DPS anyway. vAS just doesn't work well for melee DPS because you're not in melee range. vCR is less restrictive but you can't effectively handle orbs or creepers as melee DPS while maintaining stack.

Ofc this has something to do with dps! If melees did more dps than ranged dds they could compensate their lack of survivability and ranged attacks! And again: I don't want any trials that are just about standing next to the boss and smacking it! Every other design will put melee on a disadvantage.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Doesn't really have anything to do with DPS, it's just the awful design of ESO's raids post-HoF. Wouldn't matter if every stam DPS did 20k DPS more than every magicka DPS, you still wouldn't use them in vAS or vCR.

***, I am playing melee in vCR+3 and it works without a problem. Still I am a liability because I do less dps when downing orbs with my bow and having to wait for the miniboss to return after teleport. If I were a ranged dd i would be as desirable as all other magicka ranges. Higher melee dps would compensate this. With murkmire ranged DDs went to the same dps level as melee DDs and this broke everything. Please do not refer to exceptional stam nightblade cheese parses to reflect the current situation in endgame hardmodes.

Edziu · February 2019

Grimlok_S wrote: »

STOP getting carried by light attack procs in endgame pve content!!!

I REALLY PLEASE FOR NERF TO RELEQUEN SO WE CAN GET OVERALL NORMAL BUFF FOR STAMINA!

Qbiken wrote: »

Stamina nightblade needs to be deleted from endgame pve, change my mind

and yeah, as I know from my more exp friends jsut stamnb is overperformind rest stam classes and this is main problem why we cant get buff to stamina at all

when it is any..just any thread about stam dps to get any nice buffs then everyone are jsut jumping: "BUT STAM NB IS OP, NO NEED ANY BUFFS TO STAM"

thats sad as everyone see only stamnb as many play only stamnb beccause of meta to this and noone even care for rest stam classes which are highly underperformind from just stamnb as what I know but what I also have seen

themaddaedra · February 2019

I kinda love this high risk cliche, like what risk dude? Being on melee means you have to block some stomps on Assembly General, watch out for %30 spin on Ra Kotu and one or two more mechanics through the entire game. Even on those bosses stamina dps has been overdoing magicka for ages, and not even by a small margin.

5 out of 7 trials favor stamina dps bay far and these dudes still come here crying because they are not supreming the last two mini trials that nobody cares about anyway. As someone else cleverly put it above, vAS is not a stamina trial and it won't change no matter how further you push your dps which is already superior anyway.