CONCRETE explanation of what's wrong with Stamina Sorcerer

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

@fred4 I think your fundamental misunderstanding is that better balance is the less required you are to be on a bandwagon. You can actually play what you want. So instead of disagreeing with me you could just let me try to get the slight changes the class needs to make it more in line with others so NO one has to be on a band wagon ( even though there always will be cause numbers are numbers ).

fred4 · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

@fred4 I think your fundamental misunderstanding is that better balance is the less required you are to be on a bandwagon. You can actually play what you want. So instead of disagreeing with me you could just let me try to get the slight changes the class needs to make it more in line with others so NO one has to be on a band wagon ( even though there always will be cause numbers are numbers ).

I have a problem with comparing buffs between different classes. Yes, other classes have access to more buffs or stronger ones, or truly passive ones (no need to slot a skill). That, in and of itself, does not mean those classes are stronger. What counts is the strength and utility of the base abilities as well. Stamsorc may be one-dimensional in how you can build. You'll always have Hurricane, Streak / BoL and, probably, Crit Surge and Dark Deal. On the other hand every single one of those abilities is really good. So the question is, do you need the buffs that the other classes have? Stamsorc has mobility, built-in permanent nightblade detection, the ability to use both resource pools via Dark Deal, not to mention (Dawnbreaker) ulti cost reduction. Those are incredibly useful things to have in PvP.

I've read your original post now and therefore I can better articulate why it rubbed me the wrong way. As you state in the introduction, ZOS would like to know what the problems with the class are. I take that to mean they need to know in what situations a class fails to perform. You, on the other hand, have already made up your mind as to what your favorite solutions are, and don't talk about the actual gameplay problems you wish to address, other than when you talk about speed and therefore, possibly, snare removal as a long-standing stamsorc theme. Let's go one by one:

Blood Magic passive doesn't apply to stamsorc. So? Is this a problem? Do they lack healing?

Persistence. This passive actually does something. Like you say, it may not be very noticeable and, perhaps, difficult to control. Does it matter? Surely it improves your overall sustain, and that is nice! Do stamsorcs lack sustain?

Sustain without Dark Deal is somewhat of an issue. Errr, what? You got used to building with Dark Deal then. You don't wish to change mundus, add a regen set, or a stamina regen enchant? What's wrong with using Dark Deal? My stamsorc has 1.7K stamina regen and she dodge rolls like my stamblade with 2.3K regen. I'd love for other classes to have a resource conversion skill. Again, do stamsorcs have sustain problems? Errr, no.

Daedric Protection. OK. I kind of agree, although templar is in the same boat. Bound Armaments is good enough that I've slotted it and built around it, e.g. Steed mundus, Artaeum food, 7th Legion, and Crit / Health / Stam potions, but that skill not doing anything useful and having to slot Atro on the back bar is irksome. Very inflexible. Leads you to this exact build pattern. I'd also prefer if Bound Armaments gave brief snare / root immunity rather than the nonsensical block enhancement.

Your comments about pets are very subjective. Outdated. Why? No reason given. Not fun to use or play against? Very subjective. Quite fun to play against as a magicka templar, in my view. Offer nothing to a stamina sorc. OK, hang on. You don't like pets. So why do you care?

Expert Mage: Already fixed. Sorcs got Amplitude passive.

Lack of synergy. Yeah. Sure. I know the history. Stam skills were grafted onto all classes retroactively. There's less of them than mag skills, but we have 4 stamina weapon skill lines. That's a dead horse. Again: Why does it matter when the stam skills are as good as they are? Also, what are you complaining about? Lack of performance or lack of build variety?

Now on to the CCs. There are two classes that have really good class CCs, NB and DK. Not warden. Not templar (unless you are a fan of Eclipse). Not stamsorcs. I believe ZOS already stated they weren't going to give a class CC to every class (then gave one to warden that is so crappy no one will use it). What's the problem, though? This is a stamina class. Why do you only mention Dizzying Swing? You have that, Reverb Bash and Draining Shot to choose from. I agree that having a class CC is really nice, as it frees you to use the weapons of your choice. On the other hand even my DK has gone to Reverb Bash, because the Defile is so effective on a pressure build, which is what stamsorcs tend to be as well.

Zach2322 · February 2019

Question on you post on the damage passives as I havent played in a while. Doesn't the warden's passive for damage increase only go off of the animal companion abilities slotted or have they changed that?

fred4 · February 2019

Aedrion wrote: »

I'd like to add two things.

First, as a stamsorc, you have no true damage skills outside of Hurricane.
No spammable, no applied DoT, no execute, no ultimate.

We're forced to get our damage from weapons, bleeds and procsets and considering how those last two overperform, people assume stamsorc is doing ok but it's not.

It needs stamina morphs of skills like Crystal Fragments, Mage Fury or Haunting Curse. Until an actual combat kit is designed for this class, it'll be forced to use crutches, overpowered game mechanics and cheese builds to get anywhere.

My builds currently?

- Full heavy with ravager/fury and 7th legion, SnB weave-bashing for damage pressure and Troll King.
- Medium armour with bow and dual wield ranger dagger for ranged snares and DoT spam, Red mountain and sheer venom.
- Heavy armour Sloads, Viper and Skoria so I can build tanky and still damage people.

Why? Because I have no other reliable means to pressure anyone without being super squish. And that is point number two.
Stam sorc has no major defensive skills like wards, shimmering shield, wings, purge or cloak so we're eating all the damage.

With that, you're forced to run defensively but paired with having no innate damage pushes you towards extreme HP regen builds or extreme damage/proc set builds and nothing in between. Any big defensive skill would do, even just something to give us enough mobility to avoid damage bursts.

It needs these holes plugged or at least some tweak to a address how stamsorcs are lacking in buffs, debuffs, major defensives and damage without leaning on terrible proc-sets to compensate.

I have built with Troll King, Seventh Legion, Viper, 5x medium, 2x heavy. 2x Swift and 1x Protective jewelry. 1H+S Viper front bar, Master DW back bar. This was thrown together from pieces I had. I am not settled, yet. I don't think Viper is great anymore, but it gives you crit. Going to try Briarheart sometime. The one set I probably wouldn't change is 7th Legion. I used Troll King, because I knew stamsorcs had a reputation for using it, but I'm not sure. I also use Velidreth sometimes. Like I said, I find Crit Surge strong. I built for it by using those sets and daggers. For group utility and a dual-wield main bar, I'd probably go with Night Mother's Gaze, along with 7th.

I find my health fluctuates a lot. My build does not feel tanky as such, but it has a lot of healing. I don't particularly miss defensive skills. Indeed, the attraction is to not be tanky, like a DK or warden with wings / Shimmering, but to compensate with movement and healing. I am therefore on the Steed mundus. I find stamsorc plays more like a stamblade than a DK or warden, e.g. fast paced, with lots of rolling.

I've tried Ranger, but it does not help with DK roots. I feel it does too little. Having +30% speed permanently (2x purple Swift, Hurricane, Steed) offsets snares to some degree. I tried this in a duel some time ago. Roots, or at least some of them, are in fact 100% snares. Having speed buffs means you can still move, as roots are partly mitigated. (Mind you, this was the Bombard root we tested. Before you say it, yes, Bombard now always roots again, but I guess it may still be special, compared to other roots).

I've tried Sheer Venom and found it lacking, in CP.

Fury doesn't work for me on stamsorc. I think it's better suited to a tanky DK, soaking up damage, than a stamsorc that is avoiding damage via dodge rolls and streaking.

I had some fun, in duels, with vMA daggers and an 85% crit build using Leviathan + Advancing Yokeda. No monster set. The buff to Blood Craze and the Dawnbreaker DOT was insane, as was the Crit Surge healing. That setup felt very good against tanky DKs, but too squishy against other specs.

In terms of compromise between being tanky and pressuring people, I find 1H+S the best option. Use Reverb Bash as CC and defile. Use Light Attack / Ransack / Bash for damage and Major Fracture, as usual.

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

Zach2322 wrote: »

Question on you post on the damage passives as I havent played in a while. Doesn't the warden's passive for damage increase only go off of the animal companion abilities slotted or have they changed that?

Yes it does, and it was recently increased from 2 to 3% damage.

lokulin · February 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

This is a lengthy compilation of my opinions about each class skill tree. Specifically for a STAMINA sorcerer.

Daedric Summoning:

Rebate is effectively useless. As a stam DD, pets are not viable. The only pet that would find a use is the clannfear, and this is mostly in a tanking setup. And you only use a tanking setup in group content, where pets don't die, so the passive never procs. Expert Summoner is a good passive, but the problem is the clannfear itself, as a DD, you can't use it, so you never benefit from the passive. The damages scale off max magicka, but it is only effective for a tanking build, and tanking builds generally have a higher stamina pool, because they need the ressource returns to apply to their stamina, for blocking. Why not change the clannfear to scale off stamina or even take into account the weapon damage? It would become a somewhat less non-viable option for stam DD, and it would basically stay the same for tanks.

Bound armament is a good skill. But mainly because it is necessary for the daedric protection passive. However, the primary effect shared by both morphs is kind of strange. As a tank, you can't really afford to spend so much resources on blocking, and on a DD build, it's basically a dead spot on both bars. On a hit significant enough to justify using this skill, it would be easier and cheaper to just avoid the damage all together instead of blocking, by positioning or roll dodging.

Power stone passive is perfect.

Dark Magic:

Negate and morphs are one of my favorites skills. I don't often use them, but when I do, it's the healing morph, because as a stamina character I don't fully benefit from the damaging morph, however, it synergizes well with the ruffian passive from Dual Wield. My pvp friends tend to run away from the healing zone when I use it in pve, they've been conditioned. Maybe it would be nice to make it more visually easy to spot when it's a friendly negate?

I used to like both morphs of rune prison, it was useful in pvp for an equivalent of fear but single target. And the defensive rune was a potent counter against ganks in cyrodiil and Imperial City. I can understand the need for a delay on the stun, but on a stamina character it's no longer worth the magicka cost. And for the defensive rune, I don't really see the point, before, it was useful to stop the ambush/light attack/surprise attack combo with a velidreth proc. Now, well, I guess at best the nightblade will get stunned over my dead body.
The defensive rune already has a cast time, a visual effect, and it only procs on someone actively attacking you, you can't really set up a combo with it, and it can't be use offensively in Xv1 scenario. It's really just that, defensive, and you can't really choose when it procs. So, in my opinion, it should be instant for the defensive morph.

Encase is fine but the cost is high, not worth at all on a DD, and we often lack the bar space for tank.

Dark deal is fine.

Unholy knowledge is fine.

Blood Magic can only be procced with suppression field, as dark deal is not damaging. And the passive only heals for the initial tick of the ability. Is it intended? Bug? I would definitely go back to using suppression field if it were working like the tooltip states.

Persistance and Exploitation are fine, Exploitation does not benefit stamsorc but their allies, so it's ok.

Storm Calling:

Overload is nice. The loss of the 3rd bar (and potential third ultimate that came with it) hurts a lot, but now it's easier to use in a rotation. I would give money for a stamina morph. Because without third bar, this is no longer useful on a stamina build.

Hurricane is really good. But I don't like that the character almost totally disappear during the effect. I'd like an effect that hide less your character/outfit, etc.
Critical Surge is really good.
They synergize very well, and it brings to sorcs a very nice reliable self healing.

I personally don't use bolt escape myself, unless I want to cross a gap to reach specific locations. It's usually better to just run. I'd like the ability to be instant, and an actual teleportation, instead of a forward dash. Someone mentioned a Tracer Blink from Overwatch, pretty much that. It's really weird that it stops you at the beginning of the animation.

Capacitor is fine. Even as stamsorcs, we can use some magicka recovery for dark deal/crit surge.
Energized is fine.
Amplitude... I like the concept BUT, I feel like the lower bonus should be higher. Instead of dropping to 1%, it should stop to 3-5%, because as stamsorcs, we lack an execute, and the most important phase is the execution phase.

Expert mage is nice, but, in most case, it's more beneficial to use weapon/fighters guild abilities, because we don't have a spammable, and we can't use our class ultimates. It's better to go with Flawless Dawnbreaker, and Rearming Trap for weapon damages.

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. Stamsorc is hurricane+critical surge.

On my builds, I use hurricane, critical surge, and double barred bound armaments. And the rest is DW/bow/fighters guild/alliance war abilities. We can't really use any of our ultimates in an endgame scenario. We don't have any debuff. And we lack buffs. I have to live knowing that my solo parses are bound to be way lower than those of a stamblade, and that I have to rely on a group to provide all the buffs. Because I have nothing besides major brutality (for the dps).

This class lacks identity, and fun. There is one thing I'd really like to see one day. That's a rework on overload that would take your equipped weapon into account. And change the effects based on that. Like a permanent Storm Master (Medium set from Tempest Island) buff but stronger and with physical damage. I mean, instead of replacing the light/heavy attacks, it could empower them. Add damage/effects based on the weapon equipped.
I have to only use weapons? Right, let me do 20% more dps with them as long as I have ultimate points left.
To me, a stamsorc is a class that should empower their weapons, not just... use them because they don't have anything else.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: Just put an insightful if you're not willing to read, thanks! 😇

If the clanfear is made to scale of stamina then there needs to be a uninterruptible instant cast way of returning stamina from magicka like other classes have. Yes you can heavy attack, yes you can use potions if you are argonian (soon to be slightly nerfed), yes you can use weapon enchants, but without that skill sorc tanks would continue to be gimped compared to other classes. Adding to this is that silver leash already uses stamina it doesn't leave a lot of skills to be used from your magicka pool and the way it currently is dark deal is useful but not that great especially if you are on a laggy connection where dropping block to cast it can not always be reliable.

On a side note, I actually think surge and huricane do give the class an identity. It might not be a damage identity with all damage skills coming from guild or weapon but I definitely play my stam sorc differently to my other characters. That said a few more stamina morphs wouldn't go astray.

It is frustrating to see solo dummy parses be lower than guildies but I know as soon as I am in a dungeon or trial I am always doing my fair share of the DPS so am ready to discount solo parses as really not that indicative of real world performance or fun.

Elwendryll · February 2019

lokulin wrote: »

If the clanfear is made to scale of stamina then there needs to be a uninterruptible instant cast way of returning stamina from magicka like other classes have. Yes you can heavy attack, yes you can use potions if you are argonian (soon to be slightly nerfed), yes you can use weapon enchants, but without that skill sorc tanks would continue to be gimped compared to other classes. Adding to this is that silver leash already uses stamina it doesn't leave a lot of skills to be used from your magicka pool and the way it currently is dark deal is useful but not that great especially if you are on a laggy connection where dropping block to cast it can not always be reliable.

Yes, right. I didn't think about that. I meant for the calculation of the damage, not the cost of the heal. I think it's possible, because the heal is not tied to the damage in any way. Tanks need their stamina. In my opinion, it would be optimal if the heal was with a magicka cost, but the damages of the clannfear would scale off max stamina, if it makes sense? Now that you talk about it I'm aware it looks very inconsistent...

del9 · February 2019

fred4 wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

That is a really stupid argument. The big difference to other stamina classes is the combination of Crit Surge and Hurricane. What that does is, in order to stay alive, you just as likely must move towards enemies than away from them. That tension does not exist with other classes, or at least not to the same degree.

Being sniped? A DK would flap wings, a warden use Shimmering Shield, a nighblade Cloak. Problem solved. While I agree that wings are immensely satisfying, a stamsorc is much more interesting, as you can either aim to streak away or streak towards the sniper to stun them and activate your healing.

In a brawl you don't necessarily need to LoS, you only need to dodge roll and keep enemies in your Hurricane.

Yes, you can argue that vigoring and dodge rolling is the same on other classes or that healing from attacking is similar, although the latter is mainly the purview of magicka classes. However, what it comes down to is the strength of Crit Surge (good, don't change it), which is activated mainly by positioning (keeping enemies in your Hurricane), rather than using active skills. I'd liken it to glyphgate. When DOTs consistently activated enchants, that proved incredibly strong. Crit Surge plus Hurricane has a similar flavor, but without being as braindead and unconditional as glyphgate was.

Saying stamsorc has no damaging skills and therefore it has no identity is a really "on paper it looks that way" type argument. It's almost like you haven't played the class. The interaction between Crit Surge, Hurricane, and Streak, changes my playstyle quite a bit. THAT is what gives stamsorc it's identity.

Dude can you stuff it, I'm just trying to get some much needed attention/buffs to the class.

Crixus8000 · February 2019

fred4 wrote: »

The big difference to other stamina classes is the combination of Crit Surge and Hurricane. What that does is, in order to stay alive, you just as likely must move towards enemies than away from them. That tension does not exist with other classes, or at least not to the same degree.

Being sniped? A DK would flap wings, a warden use Shimmering Shield, a nighblade Cloak. Problem solved. While I agree that wings are immensely satisfying, a stamsorc is much more interesting, as you can either aim to streak away or streak towards the sniper to stun them and activate your healing.

In a brawl you don't necessarily need to LoS, you only need to dodge roll and keep enemies in your Hurricane.

Yes, you can argue that vigoring and dodge rolling is the same on other classes or that healing from attacking is similar, although the latter is mainly the purview of magicka classes. However, what it comes down to is the strength of Crit Surge (good, don't change it), which is activated mainly by positioning (keeping enemies in your Hurricane), rather than using active skills. I'd liken it to glyphgate. When DOTs consistently activated enchants, that proved incredibly strong. Crit Surge plus Hurricane has a similar flavor, but without being as braindead and unconditional as glyphgate was.

Saying stamsorc has no damaging skills and therefore it has no identity is a really "on paper it looks that way" type argument. It's almost like you haven't played the class. The interaction between Crit Surge, Hurricane, and Streak, changes my playstyle quite a bit. THAT is what gives stamsorc it's identity.

This is correct but also flawed in my opinion because while stamsorc has an aggressive playstyle of healing by dealing damage it is also the squishiest of the stam classes. All other stam chars have more tankiness than stamsorc if playing a similar build, and especially in no cp this does not work well since your crit is lower and you can't just dodge roll all the time, it will destroy your sustain. So you either try to stay aggressive and eat too much damage, or you try to los but now we are very slow and while using los we arent healing fully effectively.

If stamsorc had more build options this could maybe be helped. Having a useful class ult, being able to get the healing from the blood magic passive that currently does nothing for us ect

Dreyloch · February 2019

Crixus8000 wrote: »

Well said. I would also like to have just ONE ult that I can actually use from my class. That alone would make the class more fun to play and give it some identity. Having 6 class ultimates and not a single one being for stamina sorcerer is a bad joke.

Stam sorc has one! (at least in PvP). It's called negate

Most any semi-organized PvP group will ask you to slot negate when running a stam sorc. Maybe dawnbreaker on one bar, most certainly negate. I know that does jack for PvE. But these days I don't think stam sorc are wanted that much in say...a vet HM trial. They just don't bring enough of anything that I can see =/

fred4 · February 2019

Crixus8000 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

The big difference to other stamina classes is the combination of Crit Surge and Hurricane. What that does is, in order to stay alive, you just as likely must move towards enemies than away from them. That tension does not exist with other classes, or at least not to the same degree.

Being sniped? A DK would flap wings, a warden use Shimmering Shield, a nighblade Cloak. Problem solved. While I agree that wings are immensely satisfying, a stamsorc is much more interesting, as you can either aim to streak away or streak towards the sniper to stun them and activate your healing.

In a brawl you don't necessarily need to LoS, you only need to dodge roll and keep enemies in your Hurricane.

Yes, you can argue that vigoring and dodge rolling is the same on other classes or that healing from attacking is similar, although the latter is mainly the purview of magicka classes. However, what it comes down to is the strength of Crit Surge (good, don't change it), which is activated mainly by positioning (keeping enemies in your Hurricane), rather than using active skills. I'd liken it to glyphgate. When DOTs consistently activated enchants, that proved incredibly strong. Crit Surge plus Hurricane has a similar flavor, but without being as braindead and unconditional as glyphgate was.

Saying stamsorc has no damaging skills and therefore it has no identity is a really "on paper it looks that way" type argument. It's almost like you haven't played the class. The interaction between Crit Surge, Hurricane, and Streak, changes my playstyle quite a bit. THAT is what gives stamsorc it's identity.

This is correct but also flawed in my opinion because while stamsorc has an aggressive playstyle of healing by dealing damage it is also the squishiest of the stam classes. All other stam chars have more tankiness than stamsorc if playing a similar build, and especially in no cp this does not work well since your crit is lower and you can't just dodge roll all the time, it will destroy your sustain. So you either try to stay aggressive and eat too much damage, or you try to los but now we are very slow and while using los we arent healing fully effectively.

If stamsorc had more build options this could maybe be helped. Having a useful class ult, being able to get the healing from the blood magic passive that currently does nothing for us ect

A good counter argument that I can understand.

I don't really play in no CP. As far as CP, I agree stamsorc is not tanky in my personal experience, but that is offset by the healing. However I do run into stamsorcs, occasionally, whose health never moves one inch from 100%, while they are running around in a 3 faction brawl and I am actively attacking them. Thus, while my personal experience is that health actually bounces around a lot, it's like these people have figured something out that I don't even know yet, and they are still able to do damage as well. Those are the experiences I'm coming from, but I basically only play in CP.

fred4 · February 2019

del9 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

That is a really stupid argument. The big difference to other stamina classes is the combination of Crit Surge and Hurricane. What that does is, in order to stay alive, you just as likely must move towards enemies than away from them. That tension does not exist with other classes, or at least not to the same degree.

Being sniped? A DK would flap wings, a warden use Shimmering Shield, a nighblade Cloak. Problem solved. While I agree that wings are immensely satisfying, a stamsorc is much more interesting, as you can either aim to streak away or streak towards the sniper to stun them and activate your healing.

In a brawl you don't necessarily need to LoS, you only need to dodge roll and keep enemies in your Hurricane.

Yes, you can argue that vigoring and dodge rolling is the same on other classes or that healing from attacking is similar, although the latter is mainly the purview of magicka classes. However, what it comes down to is the strength of Crit Surge (good, don't change it), which is activated mainly by positioning (keeping enemies in your Hurricane), rather than using active skills. I'd liken it to glyphgate. When DOTs consistently activated enchants, that proved incredibly strong. Crit Surge plus Hurricane has a similar flavor, but without being as braindead and unconditional as glyphgate was.

Saying stamsorc has no damaging skills and therefore it has no identity is a really "on paper it looks that way" type argument. It's almost like you haven't played the class. The interaction between Crit Surge, Hurricane, and Streak, changes my playstyle quite a bit. THAT is what gives stamsorc it's identity.

Dude can you stuff it, I'm just trying to get some much needed attention/buffs to the class.

That is no argument and I will certainly not stuff it, because neither is your original one. Much needed? Why? Your original argument is that of a bean counter who says stamsorc has too few class skills and passives, therefore the class needs change. That, in and of itself, is not a good reason for change when the class performs anywhere from quite well to really well, depending on who you ask. Perhaps you play stamsorc and you really know what you are talking about. You're not making a good case for it, though.

OolongSnakeTea · February 2019

"Fun" is to personal to say. I have fun with the class, and it's identity lies in the fact that it is a blender with a very powerful AOE that gives it tons of survivability compared to other stamina classes. I can solo dungeons far easier on my stam sorc then any other stamina class right now.

DO I want to see more group oriented utility? Hell yes, but do I think its not fun to play? NO. Infact, it's a very easy class to learn and get into right now compaired to say, stam warden. So it's a good 'gate way intro class' for folks, and I feel that every game needs a learning curve like that.

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

"Fun" is to personal to say. I have fun with the class, and it's identity lies in the fact that it is a blender with a very powerful AOE that gives it tons of survivability compared to other stamina classes. I can solo dungeons far easier on my stam sorc then any other stamina class right now.

DO I want to see more group oriented utility? Hell yes, but do I think its not fun to play? NO. Infact, it's a very easy class to learn and get into right now compaired to say, stam warden. So it's a good 'gate way intro class' for folks, and I feel that every game needs a learning curve like that.

Stamden literally has a static rotation that is almost 3rd best dps in the game. That's as easy as it gets. Also does significantly more AOE dps.

Stam sorc is lacking in many ways and highlighting what it's good at it does not make up for the vast inadequacies of the class. Having a class that's easy, but just worse at everything is not good game balance when you think about it.

Elwendryll · February 2019

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

DO I want to see more group oriented utility? Hell yes, but do I think its not fun to play? NO. Infact, it's a very easy class to learn and get into right now compaired to say, stam warden. So it's a good 'gate way intro class' for folks, and I feel that every game needs a learning curve like that.

I agree with the high skill floor, but high skill ceilings are nice too. We truly lack group utility. Even as a mag sorc, there is roughly the liquid lighting synergy, the minor spell crit and the atronach, for one player. And that's it. Speaking of fun, maybe I just played too much stamsorc, I should force myself out of the meta.

Crixus8000 · February 2019

fred4 wrote: »

A good counter argument that I can understand.

I don't really play in no CP. As far as CP, I agree stamsorc is not tanky in my personal experience, but that is offset by the healing. However I do run into stamsorcs, occasionally, whose health never moves one inch from 100%, while they are running around in a 3 faction brawl and I am actively attacking them. Thus, while my personal experience is that health actually bounces around a lot, it's like these people have figured something out that I don't even know yet, and they are still able to do damage as well. Those are the experiences I'm coming from, but I basically only play in CP.

I think stamsorc works a lot better in cp imo. Because sustain is easier here and crit chance works a lot better for stamsorc due to getting more crit surge chances and then increasing it's healing by it also critting.

In no cp It can be hard to balance crit, healing, sustain, damage and survivability on stamsorc. I'm not saying the class is bad but it now doesn't work well with it's main focus. Stamsorc is exactly like you say. It has always been a fast aggressive class, but now it has lost it's speed and it's sustain, making it weaker and making it a lot harder to play the class to it's strengths, like using crit surge, hurricane offensively when outnumbered, or using los and dark dealing up. These things are just much harder now, the class seems to have lost it's direction.

fred4 · February 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

DO I want to see more group oriented utility? Hell yes, but do I think its not fun to play? NO. Infact, it's a very easy class to learn and get into right now compaired to say, stam warden. So it's a good 'gate way intro class' for folks, and I feel that every game needs a learning curve like that.

I agree with the high skill floor, but high skill ceilings are nice too. We truly lack group utility. Even as a mag sorc, there is roughly the liquid lighting synergy, the minor spell crit and the atronach, for one player. And that's it. Speaking of fun, maybe I just played too much stamsorc, I should force myself out of the meta.

Well, speaking of group utility, Negates are part of the bread and butter of Cyrodiil. "Has anyone got a Negate ready" is a frequent question. Dead-Water's Guile appears made for stamsorc. Our guild leader couldn't praise it highly enough.

Facefister · February 2019

Summon Charged Atronach -> Summon Air Atronach
Physical Damage
Applies unique bleeding debuff upon landing
Periodically spins

Endless Fury -> Seismic Fury
Physical Damage
Small earthquake aoe beneath target
Said aoe explodes when the enemy reaches 25% HP or less

Crystal Blast -> Crystal Sword
Instant
Melee range
Physical Damage
applies Minor Breach and Minor Fracture on hit

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

fred4 wrote: »

Elwendryll wrote: »

thesoundofwolf wrote: »

DO I want to see more group oriented utility? Hell yes, but do I think its not fun to play? NO. Infact, it's a very easy class to learn and get into right now compaired to say, stam warden. So it's a good 'gate way intro class' for folks, and I feel that every game needs a learning curve like that.

I agree with the high skill floor, but high skill ceilings are nice too. We truly lack group utility. Even as a mag sorc, there is roughly the liquid lighting synergy, the minor spell crit and the atronach, for one player. And that's it. Speaking of fun, maybe I just played too much stamsorc, I should force myself out of the meta.

Well, speaking of group utility, Negates are part of the bread and butter of Cyrodiil. "Has anyone got a Negate ready" is a frequent question. Dead-Water's Guile appears made for stamsorc. Our guild leader couldn't praise it highly enough.

Everything about negate scales off magicka, both morphs, and from a utility perspective negate is best left to a "disruptor" type build that revolves around ult regen. This topic is for stamina sorcerer specifically. Negate is a powerful option it just doesn't inherently benefit stam sorc in any meaningful way through passives or scaling.