The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Can we finally buff Shadow slightly to bring it in line with the otherwise balanced Mundus Stones?
susmitds
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We are getting the racial passives balanced mathematically and inline with the previous revamps of the other systems like the Mundus System. Speaking about the Mundus Stones, most of them are mathematically balanced to each other with the same system. However, there is one which stood out among them. I did some solo potion buffed parses with just Light Attack+Surprise Attack spam to check out the differences consistently on the 3M skeleton with averages of 5, using a Khajiit StamNB (Hunding's Rage, Spriggan, Kena+Kraagh)
Lover - 21009.2
Warrior - 20411.6
Thief - 20228.0
Shadow - 19986.4
These numbers will change with gear, however the percentile differences will the same more or less.
Using these test data, we can break on efficiency of each Mundus.
Damage-wise = Lover > Warrior/Apprentice = Thief > Shadow
Lover, Warrior, Apprentice and Thief are quite perfectly balanced with each other, each coming out on top in different situations.
The anomaly here is the Shadow Mundus. Even on a crit-based Khajiit Stamina NB, which favors it the most of race-class setups, it is below all the rest. This means, it will come out even weaker in other class-race setups. Even PvP, Warrior beats Shadow in all scenarios, even for the occasional gank build. Also, Warrior affects both healing and damage but Shadow only affects damage outputever since it's nerf.
It can be observed that Shadow is mathematically inferior to the other similar Mundus in pretty all scenarios, even on a build that favors it the most.
As such, a great change to the mundus will be :-
Increases Critical Strike damage by 9% -> Increases Critical Strike damage and healing by 10%
This slight change of 1% and healing will bring it closer to the effectiveness of the rest of Mundus and give it specific scenarios of use over the other choices.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno
Lover - 21009.2
Warrior - 20411.6
Thief - 20228.0
Shadow - 19986.4
These numbers will change with gear, however the percentile differences will the same more or less.
Using these test data, we can break on efficiency of each Mundus.
Damage-wise = Lover > Warrior/Apprentice = Thief > Shadow
Lover, Warrior, Apprentice and Thief are quite perfectly balanced with each other, each coming out on top in different situations.
The anomaly here is the Shadow Mundus. Even on a crit-based Khajiit Stamina NB, which favors it the most of race-class setups, it is below all the rest. This means, it will come out even weaker in other class-race setups. Even PvP, Warrior beats Shadow in all scenarios, even for the occasional gank build. Also, Warrior affects both healing and damage but Shadow only affects damage outputever since it's nerf.
It can be observed that Shadow is mathematically inferior to the other similar Mundus in pretty all scenarios, even on a build that favors it the most.
As such, a great change to the mundus will be :-
Increases Critical Strike damage by 9% -> Increases Critical Strike damage and healing by 10%
This slight change of 1% and healing will bring it closer to the effectiveness of the rest of Mundus and give it specific scenarios of use over the other choices.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_GinaBruno
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mundus stones also use the set measuring system as well, right?
Probably but there isn't a set bonus that buffs critical damage modifier aside from sets that provide Minor Force is there?
The Shadow is a unique buff. It also happens to be useless ... I don't think there is any case in which The Shadow outperforms The Warrior/The Apprentice right now.2 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Mundus stones also use the set measuring system as well, right?
Probably but there isn't a set bonus that buffs critical damage modifier aside from sets that provide Minor Force is there?
The Shadow is a unique buff. It also happens to be useless ... I don't think there is any case in which The Shadow outperforms The Warrior/The Apprentice right now.
This. ^^
Even in the absolute best case scenario for Shadow, Warrior/Apprentice beats it.1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
Playing since beta...1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
and it's directly countered by crit reists in pvp. Even though penetration is countered by armor, shadow stone is too low and needs crit chance.
Honestly, it should get a secondary stat similar to steed mundas.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
I think it will be higher than that if talking about buffed values. WWs often reach 8k-9k Weapon Damage builds and even then, Warrior generally does the job better.0 -
SaintSubwayy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
I think it will be higher than that if talking about buffed values. WWs often reach 8k-9k Weapon Damage builds and even then, Warrior generally does the job better.
Warrior also boosts Heals by a Flat ammount, while Shadow doesnt (does it even apply to crit heals, thought they nerfed that back in SS or so)PC EU
vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vSS HM / vKA HM
Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Dawnbringer / Griphon Heart / Master Angler / Spirit Slayer0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SaintSubwayy wrote: »Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
I think it will be higher than that if talking about buffed values. WWs often reach 8k-9k Weapon Damage builds and even then, Warrior generally does the job better.
Warrior also boosts Heals by a Flat ammount, while Shadow doesnt (does it even apply to crit heals, thought they nerfed that back in SS or so)
They removed crit healing in HoTR.0 -
SaintSubwayy✭✭✭✭✭
✭SaintSubwayy wrote: »Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
I think it will be higher than that if talking about buffed values. WWs often reach 8k-9k Weapon Damage builds and even then, Warrior generally does the job better.
Warrior also boosts Heals by a Flat ammount, while Shadow doesnt (does it even apply to crit heals, thought they nerfed that back in SS or so)
They removed crit healing in HoTR.
jeah so Warrior wins that point aswell
PC EU
vAA HM / vHRC HM / vSO HM / vMoL HM / vHoF HM / vAS HM / vCR HM / vSS HM / vKA HM
Flawless Conqueror / Immortal Redeemer / Dawnbringer / Griphon Heart / Master Angler / Spirit Slayer0 -
GaunterODim✭✭✭✭Are you sure that 1% damage buff will be enough? I mean for a khajiit stamblade with hundings, it should be a bit better than the other munduses damage wise, as its as you said the most benefitting scenario for shadow.
Not 100% sure, thats why Im asking.
And agree to the healing. They should bring this back to any crit modifiers again imo, not sure why they removed it in the first place.Edited by GaunterODim on January 31, 2019 6:20PM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
That'd depend on your other values.
So we want to solve for ...
(10.5 * 363 * 1.3) / (ms + 10.5 * wd) < (.1373 * cc) / (1 + cc * cm)
... where ms = max stamina, wd = weapon damage, cc = crit chance, and cm = crit damage modifier.
That assumes Major/Minor Brutality. If you assume 80% crit modifier and 100% crit damage modifer and 30,000 max stamina, the tipping point is about 4875 weapon damage.
So it's possible that with Infused Berserker up and something like Ravager up on certain builds, The Shadow might actually do more damage than The Warrior. However, those high WD builds also likely have lower crit chance (e.g., I have parses saved from a stamsorc using Ravager a few months back where my mean weapon damage was ~5,800 but my crit chance was only 66.5%), in which case the above formula says my Weapon Damage would have to be around ~5,900 for The Shadow to outperform The Warrior.Edited by LiquidPony on January 31, 2019 6:36PM0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
That'd depend on your other values.
So we want to solve for ...
(10.5 * 363 * 1.3) / (ms + 10.5 * wd) < (.1373 * cc) / (1 + cc * cm)
... where ms = max stamina, wd = weapon damage, cc = crit chance, and cm = crit damage modifier.
That assumes Major/Minor Brutality. If you assume 80% crit modifier and 100% crit damage modifer and 30,000 max stamina, the tipping point is about 4875 weapon damage.
So it's possible that with Infused Berserker up and something like Ravager up on certain builds, The Shadow might actually do more damage than The Warrior. However, those high WD builds also likely have lower crit chance (e.g., I have parses saved from a stamsorc using Ravager a few months back where my mean weapon damage was ~5,800 but my crit chance was only 66.5%), in which case the above formula says my Weapon Damage would have to be around ~5,900 for The Shadow to outperform The Warrior.
The latter is probably a more realistic scenario, and more in line with what I was thinking. If that's the case then an Orc or Dunmer Stamplar with Ravaging may actually be able to get enough weapon damage to make the Shadow a viable alternative. If you forget about sustain...on a Stamplar... which is still not a realistic scenario, but unless something changes so that stamina runs something other than the lover all these discussions are moot.
Playing since beta...0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Keep in mind the Shadow is a % based buff. The more your weapon or spell damage is without a mundus the better the Shadow will compare.
What would be an interesting fact to know IMO is at what weapon damage value does the Shadow increase damage higher than the Warrior. I'm guessing that the number is around 6000 weapon damage, but it would be interesting to see it mathed out.
That'd depend on your other values.
So we want to solve for ...
(10.5 * 363 * 1.3) / (ms + 10.5 * wd) < (.1373 * cc) / (1 + cc * cm)
... where ms = max stamina, wd = weapon damage, cc = crit chance, and cm = crit damage modifier.
That assumes Major/Minor Brutality. If you assume 80% crit modifier and 100% crit damage modifer and 30,000 max stamina, the tipping point is about 4875 weapon damage.
So it's possible that with Infused Berserker up and something like Ravager up on certain builds, The Shadow might actually do more damage than The Warrior. However, those high WD builds also likely have lower crit chance (e.g., I have parses saved from a stamsorc using Ravager a few months back where my mean weapon damage was ~5,800 but my crit chance was only 66.5%), in which case the above formula says my Weapon Damage would have to be around ~5,900 for The Shadow to outperform The Warrior.
The latter is probably a more realistic scenario, and more in line with what I was thinking. If that's the case then an Orc or Dunmer Stamplar with Ravaging may actually be able to get enough weapon damage to make the Shadow a viable alternative. If you forget about sustain...on a Stamplar... which is still not a realistic scenario, but unless something changes so that stamina runs something other than the lover all these discussions are moot.
Orc, Dunmer Stamplar will not get 80% crit without sarcificing weapon damage somewhere else. Khajiit StamNB, reaches around that value using Briarheart instead of AY. Also Ravager itself needs a high enough proc rate to beat AY(dropping which means 80% crit without thief won't be possible, meaning no Relequen, which again can't be removed without massive DPS losses).1 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Were you using 7 divines with the shadow? Because the way the game works, that last divines is rounded down.
Warrior/Apprentice do not equal each other.
I had a discussion about this in this thread- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5472362
I am absolutely with you that the Shadow needs a buff. Going by what ZOS has said, that a five piece is 2.31* a set bonus and a mundai is 1.85 of a set bonus, using the only set bonus that gives a crit hit damage increase and that does not use minor force, archer mind, which gives up to a 15% increase, that would give shadow a value of 12%, as 15/2.31 is 6.5 and 6.5*1.85 is close to 12. This is the old value and would have a value of 18% with full divines. Seems like the most logical thing to me.
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on February 1, 2019 6:01AM1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Mundus stones also use the set measuring system as well, right?
Probably but there isn't a set bonus that buffs critical damage modifier aside from sets that provide Minor Force is there?
The Shadow is a unique buff. It also happens to be useless ... I don't think there is any case in which The Shadow outperforms The Warrior/The Apprentice right now.
Also don´t go down that route - some bonuses are just not meant to be scaled with setbonuses due to their niche application.
Can you imagine ritual (10% healing done) being scaled towards 2% healing done from setbonuses?
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Mundus stones also use the set measuring system as well, right?
Probably but there isn't a set bonus that buffs critical damage modifier aside from sets that provide Minor Force is there?
The Shadow is a unique buff. It also happens to be useless ... I don't think there is any case in which The Shadow outperforms The Warrior/The Apprentice right now.
Also don´t go down that route - some bonuses are just not meant to be scaled with setbonuses due to their niche application.
Can you imagine ritual (10% healing done) being scaled towards 2% healing done from setbonuses?
I would actually change the healing done percentage as well. Since by ZOSs own rules, 2% healing done on an item set piece is not even close. 10/1.85 is 5.4. the healing done on a set piece ought to be 5% would make it more valuable. There are no sets (in the game that drops now, there was a 3 piece set, relics of the Physician, which was 5%) with healing done as a 5 piece, except for healers habit but that is a minor buff, of 8%. I would change that set to 2.31 of 5% or 12%. You might see healers use it then. You also need to buff powered to match the mundus, from 9% to 10%.
From there, you have to change the healing received and since there is no healing received mundus but there are set bonuses with it, 4% for that and there are 3 five piece sets that increase healing received, sanctuary, 12%, twilight's embrace, 10%, and order of diagna, 8% that is minor vitality so we will ignore that one. I would say buff the item set bonus to 5% and twilight's embrace to 12%, to keep things consistent. Or if you want to keep healing received double healing done, make it 10% and twilight's embrace to 23%, I would leave sanctuary at 12% though, since it applies to 11 other people around you. That might be too much though.
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validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lover flat out beats anything else while you're not at pen cap, the performance delta grows as your DPS grows.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Mundus stones also use the set measuring system as well, right?
Probably but there isn't a set bonus that buffs critical damage modifier aside from sets that provide Minor Force is there?
The Shadow is a unique buff. It also happens to be useless ... I don't think there is any case in which The Shadow outperforms The Warrior/The Apprentice right now.
Well it can be interesting for certain PvP builds.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭. Mundus Stones
Shadow Mundus: Increased the Critical Hit Damage bonus to 13% from 9%. Note that this still will not affect critical healing.
We did it guys. Better then I expected too. Max of 19% @Masel this is good news?1