Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

"Elwendryll wrote: »

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. Stamsorc is hurricane+critical surge.

On my builds, I use hurricane, critical surge, and double barred bound armaments. And the rest is DW/bow/fighters guild/alliance war abilities. We can't really use any of our ultimates in an endgame scenario. We don't have any debuff. And we lack buffs. I have to live knowing that my solo parses are bound to be way lower than those of a stamblade, and that I have to rely on a group to provide all the buffs. Because I have nothing besides major brutality (for the dps).

This class lacks identity, and fun. There is one thing I'd really like to see one day. That's a rework on overload that would take your equipped weapon into account. And change the effects based on that. Like a permanent Storm Master (Medium set from Tempest Island) buff but stronger and with physical damage. I mean, instead of replacing the light/heavy attacks, it could empower them. Add damage/effects based on the weapon equipped.
I have to only use weapons? Right, let me do 20% more dps with them as long as I have ultimate points left.
To me, a stamsorc is a class that should empower their weapons, not just... use them because they don't have anything else.

Thanks for reading.


TL;DR: Just put and insightful if you're not willing to read, thanks! 😇

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stam sorc is boring. It is perfectly fine performance wise, a bit behind NB as is everyone else. But otherwise its fine.

Only issues with Stam Sorc are that the class tool kit is so empty that the class is quite boring to play, and Hurricane while being a great skill is so overbearing in its animation. Hurricane makes the whole game look grey while its up and you virtually always want it up.

del9 wrote: »

Alot of long responses here, which have good points and I largely agree with.

But to make it more concise for the developers and class reps here it is:

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

Faulgor wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stam sorc is boring. It is perfectly fine performance wise, a bit behind NB as is everyone else. But otherwise its fine.

Only issues with Stam Sorc are that the class tool kit is so empty that the class is quite boring to play, and Hurricane while being a great skill is so overbearing in its animation. Hurricane makes the whole game look grey while its up and you virtually always want it up.

I can't stress enough how much this makes me not want to play stam sorc. Fashion Scrolls is basically the endgame of all game modes, and when you use Hurricane - which you always want to do as a stam sorc - your char becomes downright invisible in many environments. It's atrocious.

As for boring, I think it would be fine conceptually if Sorcerers relied more an weapons than other classes. Their affinity for artifacts and enchanted items has precedent in TES lore. But they don't do anything interesting with that, sorcs just have to use weapon skills because there's nothing else.

fred4 wrote: »

I'm sorry, I stopped reading after the second paragraph, because I'm bewildered. There have been other threads discussing stamsorc and what it seemed to boil down to, for some of the contributors, is that they were bored with the class and wanted something extra, such as an Air Atro. Not because the class was underperforming, but because they were bored. My response to that is: Level another class or at least be crystal clear that this is not about performance, but because you want to see the game evolve with new, fun, options.

I play about half the classes in the game (see my signature) and have recently taken up stamsorc in earnest. I love it. Maybe stamsorc has few skills and passives, compared to the magicka variant, but what it DOES have feels incredibly strong and, perhaps more importantly, fun to play.

Crit Surge
Hurricane
Dark Deal
Streak

Not a bad skill among those, for PvP, and it feels to me that stamsorc has a much stronger identity than, for example, stam DK. Bound Armaments is good too. Negate and the Atro both have a place in different situations, e.g. Negate mainly in group play, and the Atro for taking resources.

In my admittedly limited experience 1vXing with the class, the healing from Crit Surge is already incredibly strong, but I consider it balanced in the sense that you have to play and build correctly so as to keep that heal going. Going over every single passive, such as Blood Magic, is honestly both moot and petty. That's why I stopped reading after the second paragraph. The evaluation of a strong player, who I trust, regarding stamsorc: God-mode tier. The response of many (but not all) players, in Imperial City, upon seeing my stamsorc: Don't engage. Cloak away, if you can. That's a new experience, for me, and I think it's telling.

Now maybe I have it all wrong. For example, I am painfully aware that stamsorc does not have a burst combo outside of running Dizzying Swing, which is, frankly, more difficult to use than, say, Subterranean Assault. I am also mainly a CP player, so I can't speak to no CP / BGs.

To be clear: I am neither advocating nerfs nor buffs. I agree with the Implosion change as matter of principle, since I thought that particular RNG was terrible. What I disagree with is going over every single sorc passive and insisting that it should apply to stamsorc when the class is already both strong and fun to play.