CONCRETE explanation of what's wrong with Stamina Sorcerer

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

I also think in the current state of the game Bolt Surge has key design issues.

It is intended as a quick escape, but in the current state of the game, it takes you such a little game that by the end of the cast time (The pause it forces you to take at the other end) your enemy has already caught up.

Falcon wings on a warden, Mistform from a vampire, Cloak etc are all MUCH better escapes/movement abilities, and they even often come with more utility (Minor Berserk, Decreased damage while active etc..)

Id suggest making it simply not feel so janky. Should be nice and smooth like a tracers teleport, you're running, you cast it, youre still running but 10m ahead of where you where.

Atm its; Running, Stop, Cast, teleport, still stopped, start running again

Beardimus · February 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I also think in the current state of the game Bolt Surge has key design issues.

It is intended as a quick escape, but in the current state of the game, it takes you such a little game that by the end of the cast time (The pause it forces you to take at the other end) your enemy has already caught up.

Falcon wings on a warden, Mistform from a vampire, Cloak etc are all MUCH better escapes/movement abilities, and they even often come with more utility (Minor Berserk, Decreased damage while active etc..)

Id suggest making it simply not feel so janky. Should be nice and smooth like a tracers teleport, you're running, you cast it, youre still running but 10m ahead of where you where.

Atm its; Running, Stop, Cast, teleport, still stopped, start running again

Agreed, clunky skill, too short range, CC no time to turn around and use it

lokulin · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

Daedric Protection, Persistence and expert Summoner are used by most PvE sorc tanks especially when using the clanfear as a heal. Would be great if Blood magic worked properly with negate and encase. At the moment it seems like it doesn't do anything except of the initial cast but I could be wrong. Would turn it in to a half decent heal over time.

The one change I would definitely like to see is changing dark deal to be 100% a return of stamina over time with an instant cast. This would bring it in line with other class stamina return skills like the bull netch etc.

I hate to be a squeaky wheel but I wish people would take in to account tank and healing roles when suggesting DPS changes.

Elwendryll · February 2019

This is a lengthy compilation of my opinions about each class skill tree. Specifically for a STAMINA sorcerer.

Daedric Summoning:

Rebate is effectively useless. As a stam DD, pets are not viable. The only pet that would find a use is the clannfear, and this is mostly in a tanking setup. And you only use a tanking setup in group content, where pets don't die, so the passive never procs. Expert Summoner is a good passive, but the problem is the clannfear itself, as a DD, you can't use it, so you never benefit from the passive. The damages scale off max magicka, but it is only effective for a tanking build, and tanking builds generally have a higher stamina pool, because they need the ressource returns to apply to their stamina, for blocking. Why not change the clannfear to scale off stamina or even take into account the weapon damage? It would become a somewhat less non-viable option for stam DD, and it would basically stay the same for tanks.

Bound armament is a good skill. But mainly because it is necessary for the daedric protection passive. However, the primary effect shared by both morphs is kind of strange. As a tank, you can't really afford to spend so much resources on blocking, and on a DD build, it's basically a dead spot on both bars. On a hit significant enough to justify using this skill, it would be easier and cheaper to just avoid the damage all together instead of blocking, by positioning or roll dodging.

Power stone passive is perfect.

Dark Magic:

Negate and morphs are one of my favorites skills. I don't often use them, but when I do, it's the healing morph, because as a stamina character I don't fully benefit from the damaging morph, however, it synergizes well with the ruffian passive from Dual Wield. My pvp friends tend to run away from the healing zone when I use it in pve, they've been conditioned. Maybe it would be nice to make it more visually easy to spot when it's a friendly negate?

I used to like both morphs of rune prison, it was useful in pvp for an equivalent of fear but single target. And the defensive rune was a potent counter against ganks in cyrodiil and Imperial City. I can understand the need for a delay on the stun, but on a stamina character it's no longer worth the magicka cost. And for the defensive rune, I don't really see the point, before, it was useful to stop the ambush/light attack/surprise attack combo with a velidreth proc. Now, well, I guess at best the nightblade will get stunned over my dead body.
The defensive rune already has a cast time, a visual effect, and it only procs on someone actively attacking you, you can't really set up a combo with it, and it can't be use offensively in Xv1 scenario. It's really just that, defensive, and you can't really choose when it procs. So, in my opinion, it should be instant for the defensive morph.

Encase is fine but the cost is high, not worth at all on a DD, and we often lack the bar space for tank.

Dark deal is fine.

Unholy knowledge is fine.

Blood Magic can only be procced with suppression field, as dark deal is not damaging. And the passive only heals for the initial tick of the ability. Is it intended? Bug? I would definitely go back to using suppression field if it were working like the tooltip states.

Persistance and Exploitation are fine, Exploitation does not benefit stamsorc but their allies, so it's ok.

Storm Calling:

Overload is nice. The loss of the 3rd bar (and potential third ultimate that came with it) hurts a lot, but now it's easier to use in a rotation. I would give money for a stamina morph. Because without third bar, this is no longer useful on a stamina build.

Hurricane is really good. But I don't like that the character almost totally disappear during the effect. I'd like an effect that hide less your character/outfit, etc.
Critical Surge is really good.
They synergize very well, and it brings to sorcs a very nice reliable self healing.

I personally don't use bolt escape myself, unless I want to cross a gap to reach specific locations. It's usually better to just run. I'd like the ability to be instant, and an actual teleportation, instead of a forward dash. Someone mentioned a Tracer Blink from Overwatch, pretty much that. It's really weird that it stops you at the beginning of the animation.

Capacitor is fine. Even as stamsorcs, we can use some magicka recovery for dark deal/crit surge.
Energized is fine.
Amplitude... I like the concept BUT, I feel like the lower bonus should be higher. Instead of dropping to 1%, it should stop to 3-5%, because as stamsorcs, we lack an execute, and the most important phase is the execution phase.

Expert mage is nice, but, in most case, it's more beneficial to use weapon/fighters guild abilities, because we don't have a spammable, and we can't use our class ultimates. It's better to go with Flawless Dawnbreaker, and Rearming Trap for weapon damages.

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. Stamsorc is hurricane+critical surge.

On my builds, I use hurricane, critical surge, and double barred bound armaments. And the rest is DW/bow/fighters guild/alliance war abilities. We can't really use any of our ultimates in an endgame scenario. We don't have any debuff. And we lack buffs. I have to live knowing that my solo parses are bound to be way lower than those of a stamblade, and that I have to rely on a group to provide all the buffs. Because I have nothing besides major brutality (for the dps).

This class lacks identity, and fun. There is one thing I'd really like to see one day. That's a rework on overload that would take your equipped weapon into account. And change the effects based on that. Like a permanent Storm Master (Medium set from Tempest Island) buff but stronger and with physical damage. I mean, instead of replacing the light/heavy attacks, it could empower them. Add damage/effects based on the weapon equipped.
I have to only use weapons? Right, let me do 20% more dps with them as long as I have ultimate points left.
To me, a stamsorc is a class that should empower their weapons, not just... use them because they don't have anything else.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: Just put an insightful if you're not willing to read, thanks! 😇

Sahidom · February 2019

"Elwendryll wrote: »

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. Stamsorc is hurricane+critical surge.

On my builds, I use hurricane, critical surge, and double barred bound armaments. And the rest is DW/bow/fighters guild/alliance war abilities. We can't really use any of our ultimates in an endgame scenario. We don't have any debuff. And we lack buffs. I have to live knowing that my solo parses are bound to be way lower than those of a stamblade, and that I have to rely on a group to provide all the buffs. Because I have nothing besides major brutality (for the dps).

This class lacks identity, and fun. There is one thing I'd really like to see one day. That's a rework on overload that would take your equipped weapon into account. And change the effects based on that. Like a permanent Storm Master (Medium set from Tempest Island) buff but stronger and with physical damage. I mean, instead of replacing the light/heavy attacks, it could empower them. Add damage/effects based on the weapon equipped.
I have to only use weapons? Right, let me do 20% more dps with them as long as I have ultimate points left.
To me, a stamsorc is a class that should empower their weapons, not just... use them because they don't have anything else.

Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: Just put and insightful if you're not willing to read, thanks! 😇

Stamsorcs is very effective stamina class. My Stamsorc has been the go-to PVE character in almost all instances to cause mass havoc and decimate enemies. I do agree there are a handful of actual skills that go onto the skill bars, as their more a weapon focused build. The class does benefits from some sorcerer passives. Not as many as other classes, but some.

Power Stone passive improves the frequency of the Ultimate which is the Stamsorc's main burst damage on Bosses. Ultimates choices to either inflict burst damage (i.e. dawn breaker) or generate an area-effect crowd control (i.e. Summon Storm Atronach or Negate Magic) impact class performance in trials and/or in certain instances, survival. The rest of the Deadric Summoning passives are centered on magic builds except the Bound Armament skill there. Would I want to see more stamina-centered skills in the tree, sure...but honestly, I am okay with this skill tree primarily being magic-based.

I would like to see Dark Magic more complementary in both magic and stamina play styles. Particularly, remove Encase and replace the skill that offers a direct damage ability scaled to stamina. I say, remove Encase because it's not a useful skill. The immobilization favors duel wield - that benefits the most from immobilizing targets - and it's too clunky to use in conjunction with other skills. Such as, Deadly Cloak being the main duel wield skill on the Stamsorc's offense bar). Steel Tornado is not, as it costs too much to spam for near-to equal damage effect to rending strikes, the most effective direct damage skill from that skill tree. So having a stamina scaling direct damage skill in Dark Magic would be cool, or beneficial utility skill on par to Crystal Frags for single target burst without relying on an ultimate or weapon skill.

The only passive in Dark Magic that benefits any Stamsorcs class is the Unholy Knowledge passive. Blood Magic requires you to slot a Dark Magic skill, which offer no actual benefits for the class. However, I agree with @Typical_T_ReX without any skills the passive speaks for itself. This effectively means non-damaging effects gain no benefits. There are no active skills worth slotting for the Stamsorc, except the situational Defensive Rune in PVP context or on the off-chance Deadric Mines trigger while you're still on the slotted active skill bar to receive the 8% Max Health heal.

Storm Calling is the main skill tree where the Stamsorc gains their damage and healing skills; besides turning to weapon skills to supplement their three class skills out of the three class skill trees native to the character. I agree with many points the OP made except differences on sustain. The Stamsorc excels in area-effect damage that relies on heavy attacks to restore stamina. The active skill Dark Deal is too clunky and the cast time disrupts the ebb-flow of the damage rotation in trial boss fights, and by association reduces the overall performance of the character, as the dps role. One effective alternative is to equip Vicious Ophidian set for the 5 piece set bonus on stamina restore since the only class passive that helps with sustain is the Unholy Knowledge passive. While I have found "work arounds" on sustain, I do agree with the OP our class passives do not offer much support in terms of sustain. As the need to improve damage parses, as content becomes more challenging, the omission to the Stamsorc's needs becomes more apparent. Naturally, we can turn towards armor, weapon, and item sets to substitute what our class does not offer; but it'd be great to incorporate more of my character's class skill/passive kit into the character or benefit more than having 90% be unrelated to the class build.

Crixus8000 · February 2019

Well said. I would also like to have just ONE ult that I can actually use from my class. That alone would make the class more fun to play and give it some identity. Having 6 class ultimates and not a single one being for stamina sorcerer is a bad joke.

CleymenZero · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

I think you gave the devs EXACTLY what they were asking for.

Great post, very on point. Bravo!

Mettaricana · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

Easy fix for passives would be making thigs like crystal frag get a stam morph or proc on all skills wep mag etc. Or make it scale on highest stats.

The 20% health and stam rec needs needs to be a passive not a slotted aka nb treatment this would free up a lil option not needing to slot bound. Maybe offer a max stam passive to compliment its mag passives.

Pets should scale on stam or mag whichever is higher giving stam sorc access to pets dos and clanfear off taunt

Revert the old nerf to hurricaine dmg

Buff amplitude to like 15%

Buff the passive wep and spell dmg to 3%

I agree to the bolt escape changes though outside pvp i dont see it being the beat all change stam sorc needs to get an identity.

Maybe pull a nb and give em a bonus for wearing a specific armor type light and med etc

Morgul667 · February 2019

Thanks for the good synthesis

Elwendryll · February 2019

Sahidom wrote: »

"Elwendryll wrote: »

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. [...]

Stamsorcs is very effective stamina class. My Stamsorc has been the go-to PVE character in almost all instances to cause mass havoc and decimate enemies. I do agree there are a handful of actual skills that go onto the skill bars, as their more a weapon focused build. The class does benefits from some sorcerer passives. Not as many as other classes, but some.

Stamina sorcerers are very effective, I have no doubt about it, all classes are, this one is just less than the others. But in endgame, this class is often not picked because others are better.

Zacuel · February 2019

Stam sorcs should be able to wield concrete or stone.

... Sorry I couldn't read all of that.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

To add to that, althogh it was briefly mentioned:

I think Bound Armor lacks a real direction.
Is it for tanks (block costs, minor resistance buffs) or is it for damage dealers (max resources, light attack damage)?

If it's for tanks, then why add max magicka to it? Tanks need higher stamina for orb resources etc., so it would make more sense to add stamina to the defensive morph.

If it's for damage dealers, then why is the active part defensive?

With the loss of the overload bar I ran into serious bar space issues, especially in PvP. It's hard to justify front bar space for an effectively dead skill. Yet I need it for the great passives. Who want's to miss 8% stamina, 11% LA damage, 20% stam regen?

Toc de Malsvi · February 2019

Stam sorc is boring. It is perfectly fine performance wise, a bit behind NB as is everyone else. But otherwise its fine.

Only issues with Stam Sorc are that the class tool kit is so empty that the class is quite boring to play, and Hurricane while being a great skill is so overbearing in its animation. Hurricane makes the whole game look grey while its up and you virtually always want it up.

fred4 · February 2019

I'm sorry, I stopped reading after the second paragraph, because I'm bewildered. There have been other threads discussing stamsorc and what it seemed to boil down to, for some of the contributors, is that they were bored with the class and wanted something extra, such as an Air Atro. Not because the class was underperforming, but because they were bored. My response to that is: Level another class or at least be crystal clear that this is not about performance, but because you want to see the game evolve with new, fun, options.

I play about half the classes in the game (see my signature) and have recently taken up stamsorc in earnest. I love it. Maybe stamsorc has few skills and passives, compared to the magicka variant, but what it DOES have feels incredibly strong and, perhaps more importantly, fun to play.

Crit Surge
Hurricane
Dark Deal
Streak

Not a bad skill among those, for PvP, and it feels to me that stamsorc has a much stronger identity than, for example, stam DK. Bound Armaments is good too. Negate and the Atro both have a place in different situations, e.g. Negate mainly in group play, and the Atro for taking resources.

In my admittedly limited experience 1vXing with the class, the healing from Crit Surge is already incredibly strong, but I consider it balanced in the sense that you have to play and build correctly so as to keep that heal going. Going over every single passive, such as Blood Magic, is honestly both moot and petty. That's why I stopped reading after the second paragraph. The evaluation of a strong player, who I trust, regarding stamsorc: God-mode tier. The response of many (but not all) players, in Imperial City, upon seeing my stamsorc: Don't engage. Cloak away, if you can. That's a new experience, for me, and I think it's telling.

Now maybe I have it all wrong. For example, I am painfully aware that stamsorc does not have a burst combo outside of running Dizzying Swing, which is, frankly, more difficult to use than, say, Subterranean Assault. I am also mainly a CP player, so I can't speak to no CP / BGs.

To be clear: I am neither advocating nerfs nor buffs. I agree with the Implosion change as matter of principle, since I thought that particular RNG was terrible. What I disagree with is going over every single sorc passive and insisting that it should apply to stamsorc when the class is already both strong and fun to play.

Faulgor · February 2019

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stam sorc is boring. It is perfectly fine performance wise, a bit behind NB as is everyone else. But otherwise its fine.

Only issues with Stam Sorc are that the class tool kit is so empty that the class is quite boring to play, and Hurricane while being a great skill is so overbearing in its animation. Hurricane makes the whole game look grey while its up and you virtually always want it up.

I can't stress enough how much this makes me not want to play stam sorc. Fashion Scrolls is basically the endgame of all game modes, and when you use Hurricane - which you always want to do as a stam sorc - your char becomes downright invisible in many environments. It's atrocious.

As for boring, I think it would be fine conceptually if Sorcerers relied more an weapons than other classes. Their affinity for artifacts and enchanted items has precedent in TES lore. But they don't do anything interesting with that, sorcs just have to use weapon skills because there's nothing else.

BaylorCorvette · February 2019

I started a good discussion here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456615/stamsorc-by-far-has-the-least-usable-passives-and-buffs-debuffs-and-needs-to-be-looked-at/p1

But in summary, StamSorc isn't terrible. It's just that Stamblade and Stamden are a lot better (in PvP). The collective lack of applicable passives and buffs/debuffs is the main pain point. If you look at all the class passives and buffs/debuffs Stamden and Stamblade have access to compared to StamSorc it's pretty crazy.

StamSorc is starting to lack class identity, it's basically come down to Hurricane, Streak and Dark Deal. The third bar from Overload used to be a super unique selling point of the class. I would love to see this class get some more flavor..

Mettaricana · February 2019

Elwendryll wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

"Elwendryll wrote: »

And, my overall impression:
Stamsorcs is one of if not the least effective stamina class. It lacks a class identity. [...]

Stamsorcs is very effective stamina class. My Stamsorc has been the go-to PVE character in almost all instances to cause mass havoc and decimate enemies. I do agree there are a handful of actual skills that go onto the skill bars, as their more a weapon focused build. The class does benefits from some sorcerer passives. Not as many as other classes, but some.

Stamina sorcerers are very effective, I have no doubt about it, all classes are, this one is just less than the others. But in endgame, this class is often not picked because others are better.

We lack the high single target dps race were masters of aoe dot beat downs

del9 · February 2019

Alot of long responses here, which have good points and I largely agree with.

But to make it more concise for the developers and class reps here it is:

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

Grom4e · February 2019

del9 wrote: »

Alot of long responses here, which have good points and I largely agree with.

But to make it more concise for the developers and class reps here it is:

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

with the death of the implosion died and my stamsorc ,unfortunately

SaKGEE · February 2019

After playing Stamsorc for 253 days in this game both endgame PvE and PvP I have to agree with many players that yes the spec lacks identity and like many might say it wasn't even supposed to be a thing in the start and now with implosion going away there is going to be even less tools for Stamsorcs to use.

I was going to make a long post about the things that are good and what aren't but tbh at this point I really don't care too much, I'm not bored of the class I still love playing Stamsorc in PvE and PvP but I just feel like it just needs more.

You have maximum of 6 passives that you get something out of as a stamina sorcerer and you have maximum of 5 skills in your class trees that you can use without literally shooting yourself to the leg with using the others and those are Dark Deal, Hurricane, Crit surge and Bound Armaments.

Overload is now useless ultimate since you lost utility in the 3rd bar and it only deals shock damage instead of working like the current implosion and dealing either shock or physical damage. Hurricane, Crit Surge and Bolt Escape and its morphs are completely fine and now with hurricane costing 2k stamina instead of 3.1k it shines more light into the dark world that we live in without skills to use and passives to benefit from.

Making Bound Armaments remove snares instead of increasing block mitigation would be 100 times better than the current one that no one actually activates because its 3 seconds and you waste your stamina activating the skill and then more on blocking the attack instead of just dodge rolling and taking no dmg and using less stamina.

Pets aren't usable and they aren't fun to play with or play against. Only usable "pet" would be air atro to replace Summon Charged Atronach instead of having one dead morph that no one uses.

For passives just flat out change Expert Mage to be like the warden passive to increase damage done instead of weapon/spell damage.
Rebate seems like kind of a dead passive for both Magicka and Stamina Sorcerer since your pets don't even die in PvE content anymore and there is hardly anyone using them in PvP.
Blood Magic passive could be changed to heal you when you deal direct damage when a dark magic ability is active, and Persistence is a niche passive with blocking and cost reduction to the next skill.

but thats just my two cents about the class ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mettaricana · February 2019

Grom4e wrote: »

del9 wrote: »

Alot of long responses here, which have good points and I largely agree with.

But to make it more concise for the developers and class reps here it is:

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

with the death of the implosion died and my stamsorc ,unfortunately

How did it die? Skill was so rare to fire off like it never existed

fred4 · February 2019

del9 wrote: »

Stamina Sorcerer has no direct damaging abilities, and an Identity that is 100% Reliant on Weapon skills. Implosion was one of the 2 SORCERER damage sources they had, and it is now gone, pushing them even further to weapon skills.

That is a really stupid argument. The big difference to other stamina classes is the combination of Crit Surge and Hurricane. What that does is, in order to stay alive, you just as likely must move towards enemies than away from them. That tension does not exist with other classes, or at least not to the same degree.

Being sniped? A DK would flap wings, a warden use Shimmering Shield, a nighblade Cloak. Problem solved. While I agree that wings are immensely satisfying, a stamsorc is much more interesting, as you can either aim to streak away or streak towards the sniper to stun them and activate your healing.

In a brawl you don't necessarily need to LoS, you only need to dodge roll and keep enemies in your Hurricane.

Yes, you can argue that vigoring and dodge rolling is the same on other classes or that healing from attacking is similar, although the latter is mainly the purview of magicka classes. However, what it comes down to is the strength of Crit Surge (good, don't change it), which is activated mainly by positioning (keeping enemies in your Hurricane), rather than using active skills. I'd liken it to glyphgate. When DOTs consistently activated enchants, that proved incredibly strong. Crit Surge plus Hurricane has a similar flavor, but without being as braindead and unconditional as glyphgate was.

Saying stamsorc has no damaging skills and therefore it has no identity is a really "on paper it looks that way" type argument. It's almost like you haven't played the class. The interaction between Crit Surge, Hurricane, and Streak, changes my playstyle quite a bit. THAT is what gives stamsorc it's identity.

fred4 · February 2019

SaKGEE wrote: »

Making Bound Armaments remove snares instead of increasing block mitigation would be 100 times better than the current one that no one actually activates because its 3 seconds and you waste your stamina activating the skill and then more on blocking the attack instead of just dodge rolling and taking no dmg and using less stamina.

I have to say, I love this idea, although it would have to give a short immunity as well. Just purely in terms of skills you want to slot, Bound Armaments is hard to argue with, while having both Forward Momentum AND Crit Surge in the build feels wasteful. I've tried Ranger, but it does nothing against roots. With stamsorc well suited to a highly mobile medium armor spec, snare / root removal makes sense. The only thing I can think of is that Bound Armaments, in it's current form, might help deal with Soul Assault, but I haven't done the math. It makes no sense that the skill costs stamina. If it cost magicka, that would make more sense, though even if it was free to cast, I'd rarely waste a GCD on it.

Rikumaru · February 2019

Ball of lightning giving a 6s snare immunity sounds pretty damn good.

ToRelax · February 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Stam sorc is boring. It is perfectly fine performance wise, a bit behind NB as is everyone else. But otherwise its fine.

Only issues with Stam Sorc are that the class tool kit is so empty that the class is quite boring to play, and Hurricane while being a great skill is so overbearing in its animation. Hurricane makes the whole game look grey while its up and you virtually always want it up.

I can't stress enough how much this makes me not want to play stam sorc. Fashion Scrolls is basically the endgame of all game modes, and when you use Hurricane - which you always want to do as a stam sorc - your char becomes downright invisible in many environments. It's atrocious.

As for boring, I think it would be fine conceptually if Sorcerers relied more an weapons than other classes. Their affinity for artifacts and enchanted items has precedent in TES lore. But they don't do anything interesting with that, sorcs just have to use weapon skills because there's nothing else.

Lightning Form's animation is a big turn-off, yes. Back in 1.6 or so there was that bug where you could let it almost run out to where the character's armor would regain it's color but the lightning around the character was still there, and when you reapplied it it stayed that way. That looked so much better.

As for weapon affinity, I considered that part of their core design pre 1.6, with Surge being the largest weapon damage buff in the game and staves also using weapon damage. Now that's just gone. But not having class damage skills didn't add to that flavour anymore back then than it does now imo.

Overall I just don't like the direction they've taken with stam sorc at all. Prior to IC, they used to be a very weak class but had some great synergies with Surge and where super fast with Lightning Form and Bolt Escape. Instead of expanding on that they became a sort of brawling type centered around hurricane and dark deal. Maybe others like that more, I just never found it interesting.

edit: typo

CurvedSwords123 · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

"One thing that came up in our meeting that is useful for everyone to keep in mind, is that ZOS indicated it would be really helpful to describe why something is a problem or an issue rather than just saying “buff X” or “we need Y.” It would really help with their prioritization to have concrete explanations of what’s wrong rather than a list of 100 things people want buffed."

Blood Magic - When you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability, you heal for 10% of your Max Health. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds. <- Only skill I use from this tree is a non-damaging ability so I can't use this passive at all. I would like to see some active skills from the tree added to give the possibility of benefiting from this skill as a stamina player. I don't think the passive is bad, but without any skills to use it that speaks for itself.

Persistence - After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less. This feels so awkward and unrewarding. I never notice when it happens, it's such a small amount I don't care when it does. Maybe there's some super elite players that time this and use their specific abilities after, but this passive just feels so empty. Seeing that it is aimed at sustain why not make the change to daedric protection below and completely re-work this to something else that actually adds noticeable value to the class. Since flat values are in right now and the name is persistence why not add a sustain buff that makes sense to the name. Restore 150 magicka / stamina after landing 5 light attacks in a row. ( random number that can be brought in line with something like the cost reduction on assasin's will for firing where it isn't free, but helps sustain. )

Sustain without dark deal is somewhat of an issue for the sorcerer. I'm trying to offer multiple points in this thread attacking that without changing dark deal which is maybe 1 of 3 skills that still add flavor to a class on indentity life support.

Daedric Protection - Increases your Health and Stamina Recovery by 20% while you have a Daedric Summoning ability slotted. <- I would LOVE to make use of this passive more, but most of the time I can't fit a skill on my bar to get this passive so it's practically wasted. ( If only I had more bar space RIP overload ). Should just be active. Period. Nightblade AND warden get 15% to all three stats. This could be something that stam sorc has up for once.

Expert Summoner - Increases your Max Health by 8% while you have a Daedric Summoning pet active. <- The only time this is active for a stam sorc is in PvE when they drop an atro in a coordinated trial or when stam sorcs are trolling mag sorcs and drop atros in a duel. These are very specific, too niche encounters. This should just be when a daedric summoning skill is slotted.

Expert Mage - Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted. <- Compare this skill to the warden's 3% MORE DAMAGE PER ABILITY and realize how weak this skill is in comparison. Made even more so by the fact THERE ARE NO good sorcerer abilities for stam sorc so you end up with mostly weapon skills than sorcerer abilities anyway. Where as every animal companion skill short maybe 1 in used on my stamden. That's a minimum 9% more DAMAGE vs what is usually 2% more WEAPON damage because that's all I can afford to put on my bar. This is both an issue of useless sorc skills for stam sorc and just being dated in the current day of ESO. I'm fine keeping the spell / weapon damage, but it needs to be raised way more when you have something that just boosts all damage by 3% in the game in a similar fashion. I would say 5% per skill, but that might take mag sorcs over the top, at least 4%.

Another trending theme brought up in this passive is how little the class synergizes with itself. Think about it for a second I get a buff based on the number of sorceror abilities on my bar, but I am completely pigeonholed into using almost ALL weapon line abilities as a stam class making that passive almost useless. So many of the passives have a requirement that the stam sorc either can't or will never meet and therefore gain no benefit from its own class passives.

ACTIVE SKILLS.

Rune - Too expensive without any real benefit for casting. Dodgable, have no real secondary effect unless magicka, and really useless. Compared to fear that hits aoe, drops block, can't be dodged, AND applies maim this skill is just hollow in comparison. Not to mention I already have such a huge magicka drain from my other mandatory skills to survive this wouldn't even be sustainable if I wanted to use it. Rune cage had a moment of craziness for mag sorc so I am careful to bring this up, but a stamina version with a distance requirement like fossilize would bring value to this skill. If it also did some kind of damage or provided a debuff on the target that would be even better. The really frustrating thing here is stam sorc is so close to having an interesting, unique, powerful skill, but just doesn't.

All of the pets are worthless to a stamina build due to all being magicka and scaling off magic. There's one pet that does negligible physical damage, but still costs magicka AND scales off max health. Not usable in anyway as a DD. Although, quite potent for tanks it has to be DOUBLE barred completely ruining the skill as with most pets. I'd rather see a re-work on pets to make them similar to wardens how they are active abilities or followers such as the netch. This would the game-play of a "pet sorc" feel like you have way more control over what you are doing AND make fighting a pet sorc not a targeting nightmare. Currently as a stam sorc I don't have enough bar space to fit a pet on one bar even if one was good enough to use.

Ball of Lightning - This is really my ace in the hole. The easiest, most immediately game changing skill, the lowest hanging fruit if you will. What happened to wings for the DK was a GREAT example of what can happen here. Ball of lightning already functions poorly either intercepting things it shouldn't or just not intercepting things at all. Stam sorcerer's unique buff is minor expedition meaning it's based off move-speed, but think of all the 10% snares in the game to counter that--every snare immediately not only cancels your movement speed, but makes you even slower completely blasting your uniqueness in the process.

Due to the cost increase on repeating ball of lightning ( which should absolutely stay ) I propose adding 6 SECONDS of snare immunity to IMMEDIATELY re-create the identity of the stam sorc giving it the ability to move again and frankly being the best at it. I can understand if things above are looked at sure lower the 6 seconds, but if NOTHING else happened give the stam sorc a clear leg up on removing snares to pair with its intended identity of speed. Everyone right now wants to move, we ALL hate snares. Without changing anything else this would make stam sorc a top contender for anyone who played pvp without changing anything to do with pve balance. EASY, win / win.

Major issues -

-Lack of passives to use
-Too many requirements on passives so even the useful ones can go unused
-Lack of stamina CC ( forever dizzying swing in a meta of I can't move and people who permanently hold up block regardless if I can )
-Stam sorc's reliance on weapon skills gaining even less from its own passives
-Pets are outdated ( and in my opinion not fun to use or play against ) offer nothing for a stamina sorc
-Stamina sorc should be able to MOVE and there's an easy way to make it happen

Hopefully this is an easy to understand read on not just buff me bro. The goal of this thread is to continue to raise awareness of stam sorc and it's ever diminishing place in ESO. I am not here to make the argument that the class is good or bad, or was better or worse at certain times. This thread is posted looking forward where big changes are already on the horizon and this apparently under-represented class is already showing signs of getting lost in the shuffle. I am glad stam sorc is still being brought up in the sense that they needed nerfs via implosion, but I would like to also be represented for the class should have to begin with instead of cheesey random procs to maintain relevance.

Finally! Some effective Stamsorc advocacy! Thank you!

Typical_T_ReX · February 2019

fred4 wrote: »

I'm sorry, I stopped reading after the second paragraph, because I'm bewildered. There have been other threads discussing stamsorc and what it seemed to boil down to, for some of the contributors, is that they were bored with the class and wanted something extra, such as an Air Atro. Not because the class was underperforming, but because they were bored. My response to that is: Level another class or at least be crystal clear that this is not about performance, but because you want to see the game evolve with new, fun, options.

I play about half the classes in the game (see my signature) and have recently taken up stamsorc in earnest. I love it. Maybe stamsorc has few skills and passives, compared to the magicka variant, but what it DOES have feels incredibly strong and, perhaps more importantly, fun to play.

Crit Surge
Hurricane
Dark Deal
Streak

Not a bad skill among those, for PvP, and it feels to me that stamsorc has a much stronger identity than, for example, stam DK. Bound Armaments is good too. Negate and the Atro both have a place in different situations, e.g. Negate mainly in group play, and the Atro for taking resources.

In my admittedly limited experience 1vXing with the class, the healing from Crit Surge is already incredibly strong, but I consider it balanced in the sense that you have to play and build correctly so as to keep that heal going. Going over every single passive, such as Blood Magic, is honestly both moot and petty. That's why I stopped reading after the second paragraph. The evaluation of a strong player, who I trust, regarding stamsorc: God-mode tier. The response of many (but not all) players, in Imperial City, upon seeing my stamsorc: Don't engage. Cloak away, if you can. That's a new experience, for me, and I think it's telling.

Now maybe I have it all wrong. For example, I am painfully aware that stamsorc does not have a burst combo outside of running Dizzying Swing, which is, frankly, more difficult to use than, say, Subterranean Assault. I am also mainly a CP player, so I can't speak to no CP / BGs.

To be clear: I am neither advocating nerfs nor buffs. I agree with the Implosion change as matter of principle, since I thought that particular RNG was terrible. What I disagree with is going over every single sorc passive and insisting that it should apply to stamsorc when the class is already both strong and fun to play.

If you admit to not really playing the class the least you can do is actually read the thread. As indicated in the first paragraph this information is laid out in a deliberate manner to be understood for more than just opinion, but have an actual reason for suggesting the changes.

For exactly the reason of, "The evaluation of a strong player, blah blah blah.." What was their evaluation and why? Everything is good at beating noobs and clearing overland content, that's not where the game needs balancing. I'm glad you like stam sorc, it can be good. Even if you look in PvE how many patches have we gone without seeing a stam sorc even compete for top DPS? In PVP what is everyone's number one complaint? Not stam sorcs.

And with all due respect you should really check yourself before you reply to some of the people on this thread who are stam sorc mains and go off more than their evaluation of their anonymous friends, whom I'd be glad to discuss these things with btw, relying on no facts for discussion.

Aedrion · February 2019

I'd like to add two things.

First, as a stamsorc, you have no true damage skills outside of Hurricane.
No spammable, no applied DoT, no execute, no ultimate.

We're forced to get our damage from weapons, bleeds and procsets and considering how those last two overperform, people assume stamsorc is doing ok but it's not.

It needs stamina morphs of skills like Crystal Fragments, Mage Fury or Haunting Curse. Until an actual combat kit is designed for this class, it'll be forced to use crutches, overpowered game mechanics and cheese builds to get anywhere.

My builds currently?

- Full heavy with ravager/fury and 7th legion, SnB weave-bashing for damage pressure and Troll King.
- Medium armour with bow and dual wield ranger dagger for ranged snares and DoT spam, Red mountain and sheer venom.
- Heavy armour Sloads, Viper and Skoria so I can build tanky and still damage people.

Why? Because I have no other reliable means to pressure anyone without being super squish. And that is point number two.
Stam sorc has no major defensive skills like wards, shimmering shield, wings, purge or cloak so we're eating all the damage.

With that, you're forced to run defensively but paired with having no innate damage pushes you towards extreme HP regen builds or extreme damage/proc set builds and nothing in between. Any big defensive skill would do, even just something to give us enough mobility to avoid damage bursts.

It needs these holes plugged or at least some tweak to a address how stamsorcs are lacking in buffs, debuffs, major defensives and damage without leaning on terrible proc-sets to compensate.

fred4 · February 2019

Typical_T_ReX wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I'm sorry, I stopped reading after the second paragraph, because I'm bewildered. There have been other threads discussing stamsorc and what it seemed to boil down to, for some of the contributors, is that they were bored with the class and wanted something extra, such as an Air Atro. Not because the class was underperforming, but because they were bored. My response to that is: Level another class or at least be crystal clear that this is not about performance, but because you want to see the game evolve with new, fun, options.

I play about half the classes in the game (see my signature) and have recently taken up stamsorc in earnest. I love it. Maybe stamsorc has few skills and passives, compared to the magicka variant, but what it DOES have feels incredibly strong and, perhaps more importantly, fun to play.

Crit Surge
Hurricane
Dark Deal
Streak

Not a bad skill among those, for PvP, and it feels to me that stamsorc has a much stronger identity than, for example, stam DK. Bound Armaments is good too. Negate and the Atro both have a place in different situations, e.g. Negate mainly in group play, and the Atro for taking resources.

In my admittedly limited experience 1vXing with the class, the healing from Crit Surge is already incredibly strong, but I consider it balanced in the sense that you have to play and build correctly so as to keep that heal going. Going over every single passive, such as Blood Magic, is honestly both moot and petty. That's why I stopped reading after the second paragraph. The evaluation of a strong player, who I trust, regarding stamsorc: God-mode tier. The response of many (but not all) players, in Imperial City, upon seeing my stamsorc: Don't engage. Cloak away, if you can. That's a new experience, for me, and I think it's telling.

Now maybe I have it all wrong. For example, I am painfully aware that stamsorc does not have a burst combo outside of running Dizzying Swing, which is, frankly, more difficult to use than, say, Subterranean Assault. I am also mainly a CP player, so I can't speak to no CP / BGs.

To be clear: I am neither advocating nerfs nor buffs. I agree with the Implosion change as matter of principle, since I thought that particular RNG was terrible. What I disagree with is going over every single sorc passive and insisting that it should apply to stamsorc when the class is already both strong and fun to play.

If you admit to not really playing the class the least you can do is actually read the thread. As indicated in the first paragraph this information is laid out in a deliberate manner to be understood for more than just opinion, but have an actual reason for suggesting the changes.

For exactly the reason of, "The evaluation of a strong player, blah blah blah.." What was their evaluation and why? Everything is good at beating noobs and clearing overland content, that's not where the game needs balancing. I'm glad you like stam sorc, it can be good. Even if you look in PvE how many patches have we gone without seeing a stam sorc even compete for top DPS? In PVP what is everyone's number one complaint? Not stam sorcs.

And with all due respect you should really check yourself before you reply to some of the people on this thread who are stam sorc mains and go off more than their evaluation of their anonymous friends, whom I'd be glad to discuss these things with btw, relying on no facts for discussion.

I get it, you're part of the "in" crowd, and therefore you feel validated in your opinions. I've layed out why I feel stamsorc is different from other classes and why I think it's strong. You write me off as someone who does overland content and only kills noobs. There is nothing I can do about that. For what it's worth, I'm playing the game for 3 1/2 years, most of that in PvP, and most of my characters are Stormproof, including the stamsorc. One thing is correct. I do not care for PvE RAIDs, and I do not care to account for people jumping onto a bandwagon, because class X does 50K DPS, and class Y does 49K DPS in a RAID, and therefore everyone plays class X.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2019

Aedrion wrote: »

Why? Because I have no other reliable means to pressure anyone without being super squish. And that is point number two.
Stam sorc has no major defensive skills like wards, shimmering shield, wings, purge or cloak so we're eating all the damage.

Right, but I must admit that I'd probably couldn't slot it anyway with the few flex spots on my set ups. Mandatory stuff is stretched too wide over weapon skills. That worsens the issue of missing class skills. If, say, streak or BA would grant snare immunity, it would open up a flex slot at least and, like fred4 said, it wouldn't feel so bad to slot surge and FM, the sole reason why I run 2h. Means it would also open up a bit of build flexibility. (Yes, I know, Shuffle is a thing too but I feel the need to slot BA or Streak anyway).