Best healer race for competitive scores

Baltharuch · January 2019

I've been a part of many guilds that do the best min-maxing they possibly can to squeeze out the highest numbers from bis race/class/rotations blah blah blah so I'm always expected to be whatever the meta races are for healing. I've done the hardmodes of all trials + dungeons so far and I've gotten great scores using the 3 previous best healing races and I was just wondering what the opinion for bis healer races will be when the race change patch rolls for competitive scores, hardmodes, first clears etc.

Bretons have insane sustain which is a godsend for healers and enable them to get stronger heals from bi-stat max stats instead of recovery, or they can comfortably run The Ritual and rely on their passives and enchants for regen and have even more healing done. High elves have a mix of power/sustain but their sustain comes from class abilities instead of the constant regen from Bretons which is less effective, they're kind of the safe/middle ground option to pick but don't have the health from Khajiit or spell resist from Breton. I've read that Khajiits have around the same sustain as Altmer in a group setting but with the added spell crit they're probably further in raw healing output numbers than Altmer/Breton and the tri-stats are very useful for healers. Argonians are.... yeah.. I've never particularly liked them for healing but considering them on the pts I really wouldn't want to be one.

I know every race is viable especially for healers even in the end game and if you're missing something it can be easily compensated for but I guess I'm just interested in reading the opinions everyone has for this topic!

FakeFox · January 2019

I mostly agree with you.

I've done a in depth analysis, if you are interested: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455466/pve-healer-race-guide-wrathstone-dlc-pts

Arciris · January 2019

If you're looking for score pushing, then the answer is Nord: higher Major Force uptime by faster Warhorn rotations will lead to higher group DPS and therefore faster clears.
Nothing will be more meta than Nord for support roles at least in its current state.

Tasear · January 2019

Nord it's not like we are actually suffering for sustain as healers and the better the team the less you need real healing. So ultimate generation is the answer.

Facefister · January 2019

@FakeFox
Do you allow me to use your signature in my own?
"If everyone doing damage is a DD, then everyone with a healthbar can be a tank."

FakeFox · January 2019

Facefister wrote: »

@FakeFox
Do you allow me to use your signature in my own?
"If everyone doing damage is a DD, then everyone with a healthbar can be a tank."

Sure, it's not from me anyway.^^

FakeFox · January 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Nord it's not like we are actually suffering for sustain as healers and the better the team the less you need real healing. So ultimate generation is the answer.

Healing is usually not the most sustain heavy part. Orbs for example are one of the most expensive skills and you use them a lot no matter how much damage the group actually takes. I agree however that sustain shouldn't be a issue unless you run two sets that don't have any recovery.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2019

ZOS pretty much says in next update:
So.. you want to be a healer ? So here are your racial options:

- Breton

So... what race do you choose ?

#Diversity

FakeFox · January 2019

Arciris wrote: »

If you're looking for score pushing, then the answer is Nord: higher Major Force uptime by faster Warhorn rotations will lead to higher group DPS and therefore faster clears.
Nothing will be more meta than Nord for support roles at least in its current state.

I don't completely disagree, but the impact of Nords ultigen is actually really small. It increases a healers ultigen by around 13%. So if you have one Nord in a group with 4 horns and 50% major force the uptime increases by ~1,6%. I'm not sure what exact DPS impact major force has, but lets assume 50% would be 10% DPS increase, then one Nord would bring ~0,16% more DPS and if all healers and tanks where Nord we would be looking at ~0,64% more DPS. The increase is so small that even a tiny inconsistency can completely negate it. So for example, if the healers as Nords can't sustain enough bubbles and one DD runs dry in a high DPS phase you already loose the DPS increase or if a horn gets used at the wrong moment or with a few seconds delay. So wile it brings more DPS on paper the increase is insanely small and inconsistent.

Arciris · January 2019

FakeFox wrote: »

Arciris wrote: »

If you're looking for score pushing, then the answer is Nord: higher Major Force uptime by faster Warhorn rotations will lead to higher group DPS and therefore faster clears.
Nothing will be more meta than Nord for support roles at least in its current state.

I don't completely disagree, but the impact of Nords ultigen is actually really small. It increases a healers ultigen by around 13%. So if you have one Nord in a group with 4 horns and 50% major force the uptime increases by ~1,6%. I'm not sure what exact DPS impact major force has, but lets assume 50% would be 10% DPS increase, then one Nord would bring ~0,16% more DPS and if all healers and tanks where Nord we would be looking at ~0,64% more DPS. The increase is so small that even a tiny inconsistency can completely negate it. So for example, if the healers as Nords can't sustain enough bubbles and one DD runs dry in a high DPS phase you already loose the DPS increase or if a horn gets used at the wrong moment or with a few seconds delay. So wile it brings more DPS on paper the increase is insanely small and inconsistent.

I haven't done the math either but we have to assume that score pushing min/maxers will have 4 Nords on the 4 support roles. Even a 0.5% overall DPS increase would still be better than 0%. Every little tiny bit counts in that scenario.

Because of that 0.5% increase (on the low end of the speculation spectrum), players with a different race than Nord will not be invited for score pushing groups, end of the story.

And since a lot of players follow whatever the "meta" is, without even questioning it, it is highly possible that people will not invite/kick non-Nord supports in all kind of content, even FG 1 - even though in that context it really doesn't matter.

dovakiin5574 · January 2019

You can make anything for competitive scores so long as you build with the race in mind. Make tweaks to the meta to fit your specific build

Facefister · January 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ZOS pretty much says in next update:
So.. you want to be a healer ? So here are your racial options:

- Breton

So... what race do you choose ? #Diversity

Or Nord.

BahometZ · January 2019

*weeps nerfully*

ElliottXO · January 2019

People never considerate opportunity costs. Can every support role perform at 100% with Nords other subpar racial bonus?

And if so, why don't the other support roles just spec more into DPS directly using the 'optimal' race? Is 1% more warhorn really that superior or would it be better if the support roles do e.g. 10% more damage being more 'selfish'?

I am not fully convinced that these answers are so clear as people make them sound.

TheGreatBlackBear · January 2019

ElliottXO wrote: »

People never considerate opportunity costs. Can every support role perform at 100% with Nords other subpar racial bonus?

And if so, why don't the other support roles just spec more into DPS directly using the 'optimal' race? Is 1% more warhorn really that superior or would it be better if the support roles do e.g. 10% more damage being more 'selfish'?

I am not fully convinced that these answers are so clear as people make them sound.

Um. Yes. Giving the group more major force is better than the support roles doing more damage individually. The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

Liofa · January 2019

Healers in competitive runs deal as much damage as possible in several fights, sometimes even swapping to full DD mode. In that case, High Elf, Breton, Dunmer, Khajiit are all good picks. It doesn't matter that much really but I would go for Breton.

ElliottXO · January 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

People never considerate opportunity costs. Can every support role perform at 100% with Nords other subpar racial bonus?

And if so, why don't the other support roles just spec more into DPS directly using the 'optimal' race? Is 1% more warhorn really that superior or would it be better if the support roles do e.g. 10% more damage being more 'selfish'?

I am not fully convinced that these answers are so clear as people make them sound.

Um. Yes. Giving the group more major force is better than the support roles doing more damage individually. The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

You sound super confident and yet present no data. This is exactly what I meant.

FakeFox · January 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

For dungeons this could turn out to be a big problem, as the damage is often very burst heavy with DDs and healers not taking any damage for longer periods of time. You could of course play into that by intentionally taking damage, but with how hard things are hitting in some of the newer dungeons this would be very risky.
For trials I see it as less of a problem as the majority of encounters have a decent amount of constant damage on the entire group. I would estimate that the passive would usually proc every 11-13 seconds in trial fights.

Silver_Strider · January 2019

FakeFox wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

For dungeons this could turn out to be a big problem, as the damage is often very burst heavy with DDs and healers not taking any damage for longer periods of time. You could of course play into that by intentionally taking damage, but with how hard things are hitting in some of the newer dungeons this would be very risky.
For trials I see it as less of a problem as the majority of encounters have a decent amount of constant damage on the entire group. I would estimate that the passive would usually proc every 11-13 seconds in trial fights.

Let's do the math on this then. Assuming a 12 minute fight, getting hit every 11 seconds would result in 65 procs of this passive, which would generate 325, which is only 1 Warhorn with 75 left over (so a safety Tree Ultimate on Warden essentially). That's in the best case scenario for this estimation. There are plenty of times in trials that you won't get that though and every time there's a lull period like that, the passive's value diminishes, whereas the extra damage offered by other races better suited for Healer roles pushes them more and more to being the better overall option and that for a 12 minute fight. In an 8 minute fight, you won't even get 1 Warhorn since you'll only generate 218 ultimate. A fight would need to be ~10 minutes long on an 11 second CD for Stalwart to generate enough ultimate for 1 extra Warhorn.

Even just the barebones math doesn't justify Nord suddenly rising to prominence as Healers. In a real trial application, the math becomes even more obscured. Maybe you miss the Stack in vCR+3 and miss proccing Stalwart as a result, maybe you're getting mauled by Saint Felms constantly in vAS+2 and keep Stalwart on CD, stuff like that happens so often that the passive's real value is impossible to fully determine but what doesn't really change is that the passive only gets worse the more it's not kept as close to CD as possible and that's almost entirely out of your control, which is just not something that I wouldn't want without at least getting something of equal value in return, which its just not shaping up to be at all.

TheGreatBlackBear · January 2019

ElliottXO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

People never considerate opportunity costs. Can every support role perform at 100% with Nords other subpar racial bonus?

And if so, why don't the other support roles just spec more into DPS directly using the 'optimal' race? Is 1% more warhorn really that superior or would it be better if the support roles do e.g. 10% more damage being more 'selfish'?

I am not fully convinced that these answers are so clear as people make them sound.

Um. Yes. Giving the group more major force is better than the support roles doing more damage individually. The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

You sound super confident and yet present no data. This is exactly what I meant.

Lol read to understand. Doesn't read to respond. In any group regardless of q race it's always preferable for your support roles to focus on increasing the group's damage rather than increasing their own individual damage. I could drop a destro ulti on my healer and I'd be "helping the group" by dealing more damage. I can also pop warhorn to increase the strength of eight other destro ultis. The latter is the more sensible option. In a meta where DPS stack crit chance, giving them more crit damage done will always outweigh the selfish damage a healer or tank can do with healing or tanking sets and skills equipped.
Note that I never said roll Nord or go home. I said if you have if you have the choice between doing more damage individually or giving the group more damage via major force you should do the latter.

ElliottXO · January 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

ElliottXO wrote: »

People never considerate opportunity costs. Can every support role perform at 100% with Nords other subpar racial bonus?

And if so, why don't the other support roles just spec more into DPS directly using the 'optimal' race? Is 1% more warhorn really that superior or would it be better if the support roles do e.g. 10% more damage being more 'selfish'?

I am not fully convinced that these answers are so clear as people make them sound.

Um. Yes. Giving the group more major force is better than the support roles doing more damage individually. The thing with Nord healer is whether or not you will be taking damage enough to make it worthwhile. Ideally in a trial or dungeon the healer is away from the damage.

You sound super confident and yet present no data. This is exactly what I meant.

Lol read to understand. Doesn't read to respond. In any group regardless of q race it's always preferable for your support roles to focus on increasing the group's damage rather than increasing their own individual damage. I could drop a destro ulti on my healer and I'd be "helping the group" by dealing more damage. I can also pop warhorn to increase the strength of eight other destro ultis. The latter is the more sensible option. In a meta where DPS stack crit chance, giving them more crit damage done will always outweigh the selfish damage a healer or tank can do with healing or tanking sets and skills equipped.
Note that I never said roll Nord or go home. I said if you have if you have the choice between doing more damage individually or giving the group more damage via major force you should do the latter.

And I said I'm not fully convinced by the lack of data and you again bring none. You do realize that other races can use warhorn too aye?

A nord healer will probably not even be able to make full use of that passive. The question is if this is worth it going for the other trash racials for healer. Most people here say no and present some (more or less good) data.

I see the Tank potential, but if Nord becomes meta for healers I will gift you a gown from the crown store.

Quantact · January 2019

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Nord it's not like we are actually suffering for sustain as healers and the better the team the less you need real healing. So ultimate generation is the answer.

Healing is usually not the most sustain heavy part. Orbs for example are one of the most expensive skills and you use them a lot no matter how much damage the group actually takes. I agree however that sustain shouldn't be a issue unless you run two sets that don't have any recovery.

I recently came back from being away for rougly a year.

What are these "orbs?" I've heard healer folks mention them. Is this a set? Item? How expensive are they?

Thanks!

Quantact · January 2019

never mind

WrathOfInnos · January 2019

I think Nord will be best in coordinated groups. It’s not just about your Warhorn, if you are in a rotation with Nord tanks, your ulti gen will affect how everyone can time their Warhorn rotation. Healers can get about 3.5 ult/second, and in the right circumstances the passive can bring that up to 4.0. On a Templar healer Warhorn costs 240 ult, Nord is the difference between a 60 second Warhorn cooldown and a 68. Now since the speed of a Warhorn rotation is driven by the individual with lowest ulti gen and the tank’s will typically have higher, a group with 2 tanks and 2 healers could go from horns every 17s to horns every 15s. This means Major Force uptime increases from 47% to 53%, which is about 0.5% DPS increase for the entire group.

So not game breaking by any means, but this will be significant for scores. Especially when you consider that widely used sets like Torugs Pact only add 1% group DPS (and to a single target, not AoE). It is also interesting that some Nord supports in group won’t have much effect (everyone just holds horns waiting in the slowest), but the moment all of them become Nords is when you see the DPS jump.

FakeFox · January 2019

Quantact wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Nord it's not like we are actually suffering for sustain as healers and the better the team the less you need real healing. So ultimate generation is the answer.

Healing is usually not the most sustain heavy part. Orbs for example are one of the most expensive skills and you use them a lot no matter how much damage the group actually takes. I agree however that sustain shouldn't be a issue unless you run two sets that don't have any recovery.

I recently came back from being away for rougly a year.

What are these "orbs?" I've heard healer folks mention them. Is this a set? Item? How expensive are they?

Thanks!

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Necrotic+Orb

Iskiab · January 2019

I’d go Breton if you’re really concerned with scores and whatnot. I don’t play at that level, but when I was playing in raiding guilds going for world firsts and stuff survivability and sustain as a healer we’re just as important as healing numbers. Any small marginal gain in hps from altmer will be more than made up for by the sustain and resists of a Breton, especially if you’re a vampire.

I’ve also never heard of a timer in this game on a boss where it’ll kill the raid.

TheGreatBlackBear · January 2019

The more you get hit the more useful it is. The less you get hit the less useful it is. As for the passives you get from Nord not actually helping you do the rest of your job consider this: the cost reduction from 7% Breton is much less than the cost reduction you'll get from wearing light armour.
The 2k max mag can be made up for with two big pieces golden out in infused trait. You can run infused jewellery with magic recovery enchants if you're concerned about that you also have witchmother's and CP to help pick up the slack.

Wardens have Netch and Templars have rune to restore magicka. Additionally healers are always heavy attacking to proc major mending or infal, so you'll be getting magicka back that way. Plus you have pots in a pinch.

Long story short: the game has enough tools to empower a Nord healer. If a player finds himself not being able to sustain on a Nord it's him, not the race that's the problem.

If you accept that healing performance at the highest level is more down to player skill and preparedness than it is to racial passives (which you don't have to) why wouldn't you choose the race that gives you the most opportunity for faster warhorns? Even if it procs once every cycle that's still 2.08% faster than non Nords. (5/240*100).

Mintaka5 · January 2019

IMO Breton.

Both my healers are Bretons, and I have no issues with magicka resources. One is a magsorc, and the other a magplar.

Baltharuch · January 2019

Loving the discussion so far! I didn't consider Nords because the ult regen is so small and on such a strict cooldown it would barely have an impact on fights in comparison to the constant and always active khajiit/breton/altmer stats - though the extra nord tankiness would be awesome pushing close to 30k spell resist with channelled focus.

Nowadays VAS +2 can be done in around 8 minutes and kite healers can just run Shalks anyway for warhorn spamming, vMoL HM can be done doing as little as 1 pillar phase 1st boss and 2/3 prayer phases on Twins then 3/5 pad burn Rakkhat - good groups can even pull both the levers before the corridor and still finish it in around 30 mins. I saw the video by Alcast where they burn the 2nd boss in vHoF skipping every single mechanic (though it isn't currently viable at all for full runs, it could be with a few CP cap increases) Craglorns are old content and thus easier to manage including ways to skip mechanics for extra time.

In my opinion and in my time in coordinated end game groups it's manageable to have 100% warhorn up times especially capitalising off of Jorvulds, Templar ult regen passives and the DK ult regen passives on rotation especially where the bosses are a simple stack + burn as well as the reduce costs that classes have. Templar, sorc etc.

Going by what Silver wrote my point is that trials are so short with the top tier groups that a nord getting 325 ult every 12 minutes assuming they're taking damage every 10 secs is around 3 extra warhorns a whole trial. I suppose certain classes with ult regen passives will quicken this but it's still very minimal, not to mention a healer should never be taking any risks to take any sort of damage in hardmode trials where 1 red circle or 1 unpurged DoT spells death. Dead healer usually means dead group.

FakeFox's guide above is amazing and clarified most of what I wrote in the OP! Super excited for the patch to drop so us console peasants can try some of this out for ourselves!

p00tx · January 2019

So wait...we're supposed to switch to an otherwise substandard race for healing based on Warhorn uptime? Why wouldn't you just put both healers in Jorvulds and roll a Breton?

**Apologies. I just realized the previous poster just mentioned Jorvulds.

Quantact · February 2019

FakeFox wrote: »

Quantact wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Nord it's not like we are actually suffering for sustain as healers and the better the team the less you need real healing. So ultimate generation is the answer.

Healing is usually not the most sustain heavy part. Orbs for example are one of the most expensive skills and you use them a lot no matter how much damage the group actually takes. I agree however that sustain shouldn't be a issue unless you run two sets that don't have any recovery.

I recently came back from being away for rougly a year.

What are these "orbs?" I've heard healer folks mention them. Is this a set? Item? How expensive are they?

Thanks!

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Necrotic+Orb

Thank you for your help!