Implosion is a very fun passive but it’s clearly broken. Even on a 20k hp stamplar, too many times I heal up to almost full health in a faced paced combat and boom Im dead, 6k implosion. First of thats a lot of damage and secondly given how much hp i gained from my heals I should live but yet am dead. There is definitely something wrong here. I dont know if this is a health desync issue or if the proc is broken/ desyced or whatever. Also it is way to op on mag sorcs so if they bring it back then stam only pleae.

Anyhow, I am totally for keeping this in game but again it needs to be fixed and should have a cap depending on the opponents health or lower the proc percentage. Honestly, I am not sure how to fix it properly but it does need a big fix if it stays.

Darthbell wrote: »

I rarely ever noticed implosion and the only real question is this: Will this make sorcerers compete with nightblades for damage whether sustained or burst? If the answer is no then my sorcerers will stay benched until they become more than a dungeon worthy novelty.

@Darthbell
If you hope that this changes all too much about dps hierarchy or makes Sorcerer competitive with Nightblade, then I'm afraid you won't find that.

While Sorcerer virtually gains 5% more damage, keep in mind that this is not a straight buff, because something else is being taken away. Amplitude will be better than Implosion, but not miles better. It just gives Sorcerers something reliable and solid to work with. If you compare the current average damage of Implosion over a fight with the new average damage of Amplitude, you will see it is not a huge difference. Yet, a difference.

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If you compare the current average damage of Implosion over a fight with the new average damage of Amplitude, you will see it is not a huge difference. Yet, a difference.

ZOS: "Job done! Let's go home boys"

It's the first improvement since what ? 2 years ? So I take everything for now.

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

If you compare the current average damage of Implosion over a fight with the new average damage of Amplitude, you will see it is not a huge difference. Yet, a difference.

ZOS: "Job done! Let's go home boys"

It's the first improvement since what ? 2 years ? So I take everything for now.

True. But knowing ZOS track record I am kinda worried the nerf hammer is coming down on us hard with update 22 - the supposed big balance patch.

Honestly, I am hoping for more improvements both in terms of performance and quality of life for sorcs, especially since sorcs are a lackluster in both regards and ZOS has promised improvements. But ZOS has a pretty bad track record when in comes to keeping promises.

Shadow Image of NBs has been buggeed for 1 Update now. Streak has been bugged for years. My money is on Shadow Image being fixed first ... and it probably won't take years either. That's how highly valued sorcs are by ZOS.

But things are beginning to change. The class rep programm has been established fully now. Gilliam works there and we have a new lead combat designer. The path is clear for positive changes and Wrathstone hasn't let us down yet. If they really allow CP to scale with sets, bufffood etc. next week, then this patch would be the best since years.

Grom4e wrote: »

I think every pvp Sorс wants to return to the implosion because the new amplitude is very weak,it is practically nothing in pvp when the enemy is not full HP,Sorс is not a ganker

LOOOOOOOOOL

k bye

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Implosion is to counter the ridiculous heals and give identity to stam sorc.

And a RNG insta kill is balanced because of this? Nah, sorry dude. You obviously haven't tested the changed much.

Galarthor wrote: »

You do realize, that buy letting sets, buff food, etc. scale with CP would mean that sorcs are getting the short end of the stick again b/c for our shields (our main and frankly only defense) we have to stack into max magicka, which does not have it's own CP star. While classes that can afford to put more into damage or regen can get boosts out of it.

And tbh, I found the race changes quite good with the exception of the 20% speed boost to the bosmer. Here you can see that Gilliam is a stamina NB. They will be faster than pre-Swift nerf and the speed back then was already an issue. And ofc it is procced by the one thing stamina NBs love to do more than to gank ... rofl'ing. Treating himself to such an OP buff made me very warry of Gilliam. I am not yet saying that he is bad at his job. But Stamblades getting once again buffed even though they are already at the top, while the guy in charge is a stamblade has a pretty rotten stench to it.

Yes, I do realize that. But shields have been stuck in their strenght since a very long time. Everything around them gets stronger, while they now even got a hard cap. Imagine how people would freak out if heals would follow the same mechanic. Would be fair though. It was a terrible move, but what can you do ?

I also am very worried for the Bosmer change. It will be impossible to catch Nightblades or any sprinter really.
I know he is biased and will try to push himself, as everyone does. If we can believe his statement from a long time ago though, he is not the one making decisions. So I am not sure if this was his work entirely.

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

You do realize, that buy letting sets, buff food, etc. scale with CP would mean that sorcs are getting the short end of the stick again b/c for our shields (our main and frankly only defense) we have to stack into max magicka, which does not have it's own CP star. While classes that can afford to put more into damage or regen can get boosts out of it.

And tbh, I found the race changes quite good with the exception of the 20% speed boost to the bosmer. Here you can see that Gilliam is a stamina NB. They will be faster than pre-Swift nerf and the speed back then was already an issue. And ofc it is procced by the one thing stamina NBs love to do more than to gank ... rofl'ing. Treating himself to such an OP buff made me very warry of Gilliam. I am not yet saying that he is bad at his job. But Stamblades getting once again buffed even though they are already at the top, while the guy in charge is a stamblade has a pretty rotten stench to it.

Yes, I do realize that. But shields have been stuck in their strenght since a very long time. Everything around them gets stronger, while they now even got a hard cap. Imagine how people would freak out if heals would follow the same mechanic. Would be fair though. It was a terrible move, but what can you do ?

I also am very worried for the Bosmer change. It will be impossible to catch Nightblades or any sprinter really.
I know he is biased and will try to push himself, as everyone does. If we can believe his statement from a long time ago though, he is not the one making decisions. So I am not sure if this was his work entirely.

Or how about dodge roll getting an upper limit ... or block? Those two automatically evolve with the buffs to the damage since they are percentage-based. And b/c ZOS really loves their stamina pets, you can even reduce the cost for both via CP and armor traits. Magicka builds get nothing of that sort. I am not sure if ZOS even has a hint of an idea what "balance" actually means. Just look at Negate. It only affects magicka builds and there is no stamina equivalent to it. Or sprint. Sure it is fine to carry the scroll (or relic) and run faster than a maxed out mount, but streaking with it would be OP ... even though streaking is far more expensive, less reliable, completely clunky, stuns yourself, loses all momentum, and can only go forward in a straight line. Or relics that cut shield sizes down over time, but if you are blocking or dodging or wearing heavy armor then your primary source of defense will not be touched. ZOS is pretty *** at balancing stuff. They are either incompetent or malicious.

As for Gilliam, he might not be in charge, but he is there to influence the one who is. And that person seems to be very susceptible to "buff stamblades" propaganda as is evident by the balance changes we have seen over the past few years.

If we start talking about fairness between stamina and magicka, then we should mention how many counters there are to magic and how little to physical. It begins with magic resistance being generally higher on every build, sometimes significantly so. For most people it seems to be over 3k more spell resistance.

Then we have reflects. Almost all impactful magic abilities are projectiles and get negated by them. I agree that the sense for balance was never great in this game. Magicka is really terrible right now in pvp if you are not a magicka templar. However since so many things have changed internally at ZoS, I have hope that things can change for the better this year. Wrathstone has supported this hope thus far.

montiferus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

You do realize, that buy letting sets, buff food, etc. scale with CP would mean that sorcs are getting the short end of the stick again b/c for our shields (our main and frankly only defense) we have to stack into max magicka, which does not have it's own CP star. While classes that can afford to put more into damage or regen can get boosts out of it.

And tbh, I found the race changes quite good with the exception of the 20% speed boost to the bosmer. Here you can see that Gilliam is a stamina NB. They will be faster than pre-Swift nerf and the speed back then was already an issue. And ofc it is procced by the one thing stamina NBs love to do more than to gank ... rofl'ing. Treating himself to such an OP buff made me very warry of Gilliam. I am not yet saying that he is bad at his job. But Stamblades getting once again buffed even though they are already at the top, while the guy in charge is a stamblade has a pretty rotten stench to it.

Yes, I do realize that. But shields have been stuck in their strenght since a very long time. Everything around them gets stronger, while they now even got a hard cap. Imagine how people would freak out if heals would follow the same mechanic. Would be fair though. It was a terrible move, but what can you do ?

I also am very worried for the Bosmer change. It will be impossible to catch Nightblades or any sprinter really.
I know he is biased and will try to push himself, as everyone does. If we can believe his statement from a long time ago though, he is not the one making decisions. So I am not sure if this was his work entirely.

Or how about dodge roll getting an upper limit ... or block? Those two automatically evolve with the buffs to the damage since they are percentage-based. And b/c ZOS really loves their stamina pets, you can even reduce the cost for both via CP and armor traits. Magicka builds get nothing of that sort. I am not sure if ZOS even has a hint of an idea what "balance" actually means. Just look at Negate. It only affects magicka builds and there is no stamina equivalent to it. Or sprint. Sure it is fine to carry the scroll (or relic) and run faster than a maxed out mount, but streaking with it would be OP ... even though streaking is far more expensive, less reliable, completely clunky, stuns yourself, loses all momentum, and can only go forward in a straight line. Or relics that cut shield sizes down over time, but if you are blocking or dodging or wearing heavy armor then your primary source of defense will not be touched. ZOS is pretty *** at balancing stuff. They are either incompetent or malicious.

As for Gilliam, he might not be in charge, but he is there to influence the one who is. And that person seems to be very susceptible to "buff stamblades" propaganda as is evident by the balance changes we have seen over the past few years.

If we start talking about fairness between stamina and magicka, then we should mention how many counters there are to magic and how little to physical. It begins with magic resistance being generally higher on every build, sometimes significantly so. For most people it seems to be over 3k more spell resistance.

You realize there is a passive in the light armor skill line that provides 4884 spell penetration right?

Yep and stamina has access to 20% penetration from weapons and 15% weapon damage.
So light armor penetration decreases the targets magic resistence roughly to where physical resistence is and then, physical resistence gets their penetration and weapon damage on top. Light armor is trash, has been so since the longest time.

Surely you realize that, right ?

Galarthor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

You do realize, that buy letting sets, buff food, etc. scale with CP would mean that sorcs are getting the short end of the stick again b/c for our shields (our main and frankly only defense) we have to stack into max magicka, which does not have it's own CP star. While classes that can afford to put more into damage or regen can get boosts out of it.

And tbh, I found the race changes quite good with the exception of the 20% speed boost to the bosmer. Here you can see that Gilliam is a stamina NB. They will be faster than pre-Swift nerf and the speed back then was already an issue. And ofc it is procced by the one thing stamina NBs love to do more than to gank ... rofl'ing. Treating himself to such an OP buff made me very warry of Gilliam. I am not yet saying that he is bad at his job. But Stamblades getting once again buffed even though they are already at the top, while the guy in charge is a stamblade has a pretty rotten stench to it.

Yes, I do realize that. But shields have been stuck in their strenght since a very long time. Everything around them gets stronger, while they now even got a hard cap. Imagine how people would freak out if heals would follow the same mechanic. Would be fair though. It was a terrible move, but what can you do ?

I also am very worried for the Bosmer change. It will be impossible to catch Nightblades or any sprinter really.
I know he is biased and will try to push himself, as everyone does. If we can believe his statement from a long time ago though, he is not the one making decisions. So I am not sure if this was his work entirely.

Or how about dodge roll getting an upper limit ... or block? Those two automatically evolve with the buffs to the damage since they are percentage-based. And b/c ZOS really loves their stamina pets, you can even reduce the cost for both via CP and armor traits. Magicka builds get nothing of that sort. I am not sure if ZOS even has a hint of an idea what "balance" actually means. Just look at Negate. It only affects magicka builds and there is no stamina equivalent to it. Or sprint. Sure it is fine to carry the scroll (or relic) and run faster than a maxed out mount, but streaking with it would be OP ... even though streaking is far more expensive, less reliable, completely clunky, stuns yourself, loses all momentum, and can only go forward in a straight line. Or relics that cut shield sizes down over time, but if you are blocking or dodging or wearing heavy armor then your primary source of defense will not be touched. ZOS is pretty *** at balancing stuff. They are either incompetent or malicious.

As for Gilliam, he might not be in charge, but he is there to influence the one who is. And that person seems to be very susceptible to "buff stamblades" propaganda as is evident by the balance changes we have seen over the past few years.

I'm still waiting for the day that a magsorc player will admit how ridiculous strong their spammable shields are instead of victimizing it and trying to get every other defense mechanic nerfed which has 1) some kind of stacking cost and 2) much more counters than shields have (to be fair, shields don't have a counter at all other than a complete niche set which is totally useless against everything else compared to other counter mechanics like AoE or dots/bleeds).

As someone who actually tested a semi petbuild on PTS I can tell you that it's been over a year ago since I've played something which feels as blatantly overtuned as petbuilds do on PTS currently. I can play with a buggy set (Necropotence) and I'm still afraid to make use of my ultimate because of how cheesy sorc feels. Is it so hard to just be happy about buff instead of trying to get everyone else nerfed? Enjoy the next patch when PvP gets flooded with potatoe sorc who roflstomp everyone with pets dealing more damage than proc sets ever did (good thing that I have a sorc by myself which I can just play even tho it will mean nothing being "good" on a petbuild next patch).

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'm still waiting for the day that a magsorc player will admit how ridiculous strong their spammable shields are instead of victimizing it and trying to get every other defense mechanic nerfed which has 1) some kind of stacking cost and 2) much more counters than shields have (to be fair, shields don't have a counter at all other than a complete niche set which is totally useless against everything else compared to other counter mechanics like AoE or dots/bleeds).

You do realize the counter to shields is EVERYTHING THAT DEALS DAMAGE.

Dodge Roll on the other hand only has very specific coutners - i.e. non direct damage attacks, which are often times counter-productive to slot for anything else than a perma-dodger or cloak spammer.

Bleeds affect sorcs too ... just saying and so do AoEs.

The difference is, Shields have an upper limit (tooltip), require a bar slot, are not buffed but nerfed in lag, got more counters than dodge roll, AND are the only true source of defense for sorcs.

Especially the latter is important since you fail to see the whole picture. Sure you can take damage from a sorcs curse every 3.5 secs even if you dodge, but your heals (vigor, forward momentum, etc) are more than enough to compensate that. Sorcs on the other hand only got their shields.

You only perceive shields to be strong b/c your brain is wired in a way that it expects the HP bar of your opponent to drop if you hit him. But that is not happening with shields. So your brain is not sending out all those happy-hormones (reward) and you get frustrated. We sorcs have the same issue when fighting other sorcs. But we see it from both sides and can tell how close of a call it oftentimes is. Shields and heals are essentially the same - i.e. extensions of your HP pool. But unlike shields, heals you see the HP bar moving and get a sense of achievement, even though the net result was the same as when you hit that shield. If shields were displayed like Buff Food increasing the size of the HP bar, then this issue would pretty much resolve itself and you'd see far less complaining about how OP shields are.

Just look at those perma-blocking tanks. You are dealing far less damage to them than to the shielded sorc. You are far less dangerous to them than to the shielded sorc, b/c there is no way that you will kill them if they don't manage to use specific skill after every attack of yours. And yet their HP bar is moving, and you don't feel like they are as bad / as "OP" as sorcs are.

The reason why this issue isn't as prevalent for dodging is b/c your brain registers that you did not hit the target, so it does not feel like there should be a reward. You will eventually get frustrated too, but that's for a different reason. It's b/c you fail to do a particular chore / action - i.e. if you fail to hit the hoop in basketball after repeatedly trying.

Shields have been taking hits after hits for the past years. And for all that time people have been claiming that shields are the most OP thing in the game. Yet for most of that time sorcs were underrepresented and easily killed by other classes. Strange that people played all those other builds and classes - especially stamina - many of them switching to classes to play on the strongest class, but for some reason, they rarely become sorcs.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

As someone who actually tested a semi petbuild on PTS I can tell you that it's been over a year ago since I've played something which feels as blatantly overtuned as petbuilds do on PTS currently. I can play with a buggy set (Necropotence) and I'm still afraid to make use of my ultimate because of how cheesy sorc feels. Is it so hard to just be happy about buff instead of trying to get everyone else nerfed? Enjoy the next patch when PvP gets flooded with potatoe sorc who roflstomp everyone with pets dealing more damage than proc sets ever did (good thing that I have a sorc by myself which I can just play even tho it will mean nothing being "good" on a petbuild next patch).

If that's true, then that is BS too. I don't want to sorc to be overbuffed and turn into another stamblade. I want it to be fixed and the problems we have had for years to be addressed. That does not have to involve nerfing other classes. In fact I am not a big fan of that b/c it means you would change the balance between all other classes as well, which is kinda like opening the box of the pandora. It would be so much better to address the issues on the side of the sorc whenever it is possible, b/c that would not upset the existing balance between the other classes.

Thraben wrote: »

It was only random if you decided not to use it.

That was kinda the problem. It's a random passive that triggers when it feels like it. You cannot choose to use it; it makes the decision for you.

And this is the class that already has a floating execute with Mage's Wrath. This is going to help make mages less bull**** in PvP. So instead of it just being, "you're fine, you're fine, you're dead," your execute won't be as absurd and proc based.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Implosion is to counter the ridiculous heals and give identity to stam sorc.

Personally never really saw Implosion as having much to do with the stamsorc "identity". I guess for me, for quite some time, the stamsorc "identity" has mostly been wrapped up in Hurricane and Crit Surge, i.e., survivability, speed, and passive self-heals.

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Implosion is to counter the ridiculous heals and give identity to stam sorc.

And a RNG insta kill is balanced because of this? Nah, sorry dude. You obviously haven't tested the changed much.

Actually I have and it’s trash. By all means an absolute nerf.

Amplitude isn't trash. It seems like a decent buff in PvE (or at least, I'm not hitting any lower on my PvE DW/Bow stamsorc than last patch despite the enchant nerfs, unlike my stamblade which is hitting noticeably lower). I can't speak for PvP though, but I wouldn't say it's an "absolute nerf" if it's a buff in one half of the game.

Pulling 200k from implosion and 100k from amplitude. I lose damage as the boss throws out mor mechanics. Guess that makes since right?

How do you know you are pulling 100k from Amplitude?

Do you have a CMX parse that demonstrates that?

Even if they did, OP would of needed to do an average of like 10 parses with and without the passive and I doubt OP did that.

Live vs pts isn't a direct comparison either.. DW has been nerfed. With the new amplitude passive my dps was pretty much the same as live despite the DW nerfs. Racial sustain went up, could use blue food too.

And who really cares if your dps lowers, everyone gets hurt with balance changes here and there, amplitude is alright, it's just not that interesting, I like it better than an rng execute below 15% hp. In pvp, if your that low, you should be dead already anyway. Amplitude helps you get them there.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Amplitude isn't trash. It seems like a decent buff in PvE (or at least, I'm not hitting any lower on my PvE DW/Bow stamsorc than last patch despite the enchant nerfs, unlike my stamblade which is hitting noticeably lower). I can't speak for PvP though, but I wouldn't say it's an "absolute nerf" if it's a buff in one half of the game.