Weapon Swap dismisses my summon?

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

So, I just hit 15 (I'm slow.

) Now I'm trying out the weapon swap ability, and if I don't have my Clannfear on both hot bars, it get dispelled. Is it really that game breaking to let me free up one button? Now, I need TWO slots taken up for my summon. That doesn't seem to make sense.

TL;DR I want my button back!

Solomon_Cato · April 2014

That is just how summoning spells are at the current state. I'm not sure if they are thinking about adjusting this or not, maybe a veteran could give us a little more insight on this.

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

I really wonder if this intentional or not.

Lynx7386 · April 2014

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

mcatchlovb16_ESO · April 2014

It is very annoying. I hope they fix it so you don't have to waste hotbar space just to keep your summoned pet out.

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

@Lynx7386‌

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

How is it unfair? Are you saying that if I or anyone with a different class has a DoT out, and I switch hotbars, it'll dispel itself? Say a Bleed effect, or a weapon enchant, or a HoT. Do they all dispel when you HotSwap?If not, the I would say Those with summons at at an unfair DISadvantage. But, I'd love to hear your logic.

Mine's been known to be flawed.

iso_1a_ESO · April 2014

hakujouryunub18_ESO wrote: »

@Lynx7386‌

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

How is it unfair? Are you saying that if I or anyone with a different class has a DoT out, and I switch hotbars, it'll dispel itself? Say a Bleed effect, or a weapon enchant, or a HoT. Do they all dispel when you HotSwap?If not, the I would say Those with summons at at an unfair DISadvantage. But, I'd love to hear your logic. Mine's been known to be flawed.

Considering your summon is always there doing one or more of these things: taking aggro, doing damage, distracting other players in PvP, or any combination of these three things without you actually having to do anything other than toggle it on, I'd say comparing it to a DoT ability is what I would call plain wrong. DoT's must be activated each time, last only for a certain duration, and consume resources each time they are cast. Your pet has the potential to have much more utility and damage than many spells cast multiple times over from the sheer fact that it doesn't ever go away unless it's killed or dismissed. That being said, complaining because it goes away when you switch bars is completely unfounded. If it did not, you would essentially have 6 abilities to every other player's 5, not counting ultimates. In addition to this, that 6th ability you are pretty much getting for free (and yes I realize the summons negate certain percentages of your resources before someone chimes in and brings that up) is quite a bit more powerful than any single cast of other spells. So don't complain. It's completely balanced, completely reasonable, and completely here to stay.

MorHawk · April 2014

hakujouryunub18_ESO wrote: »

Now, I need TWO slots taken up for my summon. That doesn't seem to make sense.

Yeeeeeeep. The good folks on the PTS have been raging over this for many months now. Blame Atropos.

It originally persisted, but was on a timer. They then changed it to take a % of your magicka. Then the good ol' Entropy Rising folks came in and said that was OP, that every Sorc would have them out, so they went poof on swap unless you gave them a slot on each bar. And here we are. With a pet system that will get you chased out of a group in PvP.
*slow clap*

DankShank · April 2014

There are plenty of other skills which require rack placement. You are privaledged in that the skill is not weapon based and can be maintained on swap period.

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

hakujouryunub18_ESO wrote: »

@Lynx7386‌

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

How is it unfair? Are you saying that if I or anyone with a different class has a DoT out, and I switch hotbars, it'll dispel itself? Say a Bleed effect, or a weapon enchant, or a HoT. Do they all dispel when you HotSwap?If not, the I would say Those with summons at at an unfair DISadvantage. But, I'd love to hear your logic. Mine's been known to be flawed.

Considering your summon is always there doing one or more of these things: taking aggro, doing damage, distracting other players in PvP, or any combination of these three things without you actually having to do anything other than toggle it on, I'd say comparing it to a DoT ability is what I would call plain wrong. DoT's must be activated each time, last only for a certain duration, and consume resources each time they are cast. Your pet has the potential to have much more utility and damage than many spells cast multiple times over from the sheer fact that it doesn't ever go away unless it's killed or dismissed. That being said, complaining because it goes away when you switch bars is completely unfounded. If it did not, you would essentially have 6 abilities to every other player's 5, not counting ultimates. In addition to this, that 6th ability you are pretty much getting for free (and yes I realize the summons negate certain percentages of your resources before someone chimes in and brings that up) is quite a bit more powerful than any single cast of other spells. So don't complain. It's completely balanced, completely reasonable, and completely here to stay.

RIght, BUT, you CAN place a DoT rotation, and HotSwap back no harm done. My summon however, costs nearly my entire magika bar to cast. NOT something I can redo mid fight. I'd be okay with a Timer. Id be okay with it being banished or immobilized with it's functionality returned when I HotSwap back.

How is it that my summon is balanced fine when I'm below 15, but once I hit 15 my summon is worth double the real estate? It does not double in power.

And I'm not complaining, I'm debating with an open mind hoping that this will either change my mind or bring up a valid point to catch the Devs attention. But, thanks for your point of view.

EDIT: I of course realize the possibility of exploit with having the Summon disappear/immobilize. There are ways to balance it, though. DoTs still tick, etc.

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

DankShank wrote: »

There are plenty of other skills which require rack placement. You are privaledged in that the skill is not weapon based and can be maintained on swap period.

Forgive my ignorance, but, could I get an example? I've really only played the Sorcerer with any dedication.

Aimeryan · April 2014

The better solution would be, on a weapon swap to a bar where you don't have the skill, for a timer to count down - say 10 seconds - and maybe a small magicka cost. If the timer runs out, or you don't have enough mana for the cost, bye bye pet.

If you swap back before the timer runs out the timer reverses direction (counting up, until it reaches the start time).

This way, you treat it as a pet when it is on the bar and as a dot when it is not. If you don't want to be bothered with managing the pet when weapon swapping you still have the option to have it on both bars like it is now.

LadyChaos · April 2014

I put point into pet yesterday just to play around and give honest opinion... I think it should continue to work this way, "as intended"

When you swap any of the other mage tree lines and you have a buff permanent or temporary, it drops off your character when you switch roles if it is not slotted in the new role:

Bound Armor, Lightning form, Overload .... just to show examples of how it is working the same for ll "buffs", yes pet is just a buff that is toggled like overload and bound armor are semi/permanent. A buff that works like a DOT yes, but it's a toggled buff.

It has to be this way to keep it from using one hot bar as just buffs then swapping to the primary to fight... it wouldn't be 2 sets of hard choices, it would just then be 2 hot bars. I'm personally getting used to it, but I do think it's intended in the spirit of the game mechanics.

I make sure now if I want to be a summoner in both roles, I slot a pet in both roles... same with the rest of the semi-permanent buffs.

Aimeryan · April 2014

Dropping short temporary buffs is bad. You paid the resource cost and the global (+ possible cast time); why shouldn't you get the full effect? If it is long temporary like 30mins then I could agree that could be abusive, but lightning form is 6/8 seconds.

Seems to just make those skills less valuable as they take up more precious real estate. The solution still seems to me to put any active effect on a short timer when you swap to a bar that does not contain the skill. Any buff longer than the short timer, any toggle, etc.

In particular to the pet though, they have at the moment a lot of negatives to having them out already - bad AI pulling things, don't stealth, break cc, etc. Put on top the huge mana cost everytime you swap bars, or being required to take up two slots...

Crescent · April 2014

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

You don't get a free slot. You give up the slot on the weapon you have it on.

I can have momentum or critical surge on one slot, switch weapons, and still benefit. The same goes for puncture.

iso_1a_ESO · April 2014

Crescent wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

It's intentional. Your summons are no different than any other ability. Keeping the summon without having it on your hotbar would essentially give you an extra skill to use and an unfair advantage over other players.

You don't get a free slot. You give up the slot on the weapon you have it on.

I can have momentum or critical surge on one slot, switch weapons, and still benefit. The same goes for puncture.

Yes, but what you guys are failing to take into account here is that when those effects end, they end. The pet has no end. It stays until killed. I would be fine with the pet having a timed window as previously stated to let you switch and then go back. That wouldn't be a big deal. What would be is when it continues to persist after you've switched, but don't switch back. I think everyone here is arguing two different points.

steven_shidiwenb16_ESO · April 2014

I believe they have done this because of some of the passives, if you could slot 1 of your skill bars full of summoning abilities there is a passive that grants +10% mana regen per summon skill slotted, and if you switch to your other skill bar whilst still having those summons active + the passives active it would really make the sorcerer very overpowered and would become A MUST for all builds.

P.S i am not sure if the passive is +10% mana regen i forgot what the passive actually is xD but there are a lot for +% Value/Summon skill slotted.

hakujouryunub18_ESO · April 2014

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I definitely agree with everyone saying the summon on a timer would be fair. I just don't see the justification of the extremely high magicka cost just to use an ability on my other HotBar, especially considering the 10% Magicka reduction (a great idea by the devs for these type of abilities) and the lack of pet control.

Rickael · April 2014

Well, when a sorcerer goes into water the pet goes away, when you come of the water it automatically comes back, no need for recast. Why not do the same with the toolbar switch? No extra programming (like timers would require), 10% magicka reduction remains while switching (since pet is still active), no recasting problem while switching toolbars. I think it is a simple and fair solution.

RustyBlades · April 2014

For a bug, that I reported, swap weapons while the Prophet is showing you down memory lane.

ahampelb14_ESO · April 2014

they could also make pets expire like in Skyrim - that way they act as a temporary DOT - of course if they did this, they would need to lower the mana cost as they are way to expensive to cast

Hexcaliber · April 2014

Your summon is an ability just like any other, of course it needs to be on both bars if you want to keep it out, it does damage, it tanks, holding aggro is arguable but I digress. Why would you imagine casters should get special preference? Why should you get to keep damage other classes lose when they swap hot bars; sorry but this is an asinine thread.

Aimeryan · April 2014

Rickael wrote: »

Well, when a sorcerer goes into water the pet goes away, when you come of the water it automatically comes back, no need for recast. Why not do the same with the toolbar switch? No extra programming (like timers would require), 10% magicka reduction remains while switching (since pet is still active), no recasting problem while switching toolbars. I think it is a simple and fair solution.

Problem here is that you could switch bars to stop your pet being killed, and switch back when it doesn't have aggro (whether human or computer aggro). It would make ignoring the pet all but necessary in pvp, except if they had a lot of nuke to suddenly drop it.

That said, I guess if there was a delay (on both leaving and coming back), and it came back with the same health it left... I could see it working.

ahampelb14_ESO wrote: »

they could also make pets expire like in Skyrim - that way they act as a temporary DOT - of course if they did this, they would need to lower the mana cost as they are way to expensive to cast

I assume they have a high mana cost so that killing them actually has some meaning (although, there is a build that uses volatile (aoe nuke on pet death) and the magicka return on pet death as a semi-sustainable aoe nuke spam).

The solution would be, have the pet on a timer (not short, but not too long - maybe a minute?) and make it fairly easily killable by direct targeting (make it resistant to aoe, though), but have a fair mana cost (not extremely high like it currently is). This allows you to summon it in combat as a form of a killable-dot, or a temporary damage-soak. Currently, unless using a certain type of build, you either cast it out of combat (and regen) or not at all.

Hexcaliber wrote: »

Your summon is an ability just like any other, of course it needs to be on both bars if you want to keep it out, it does damage, it tanks, holding aggro is arguable but I digress. Why would you imagine casters should get special preference? Why should you get to keep damage other classes lose when they swap hot bars; sorry but this is an asinine thread.

Rubbish. Simply, rubbish. It is an ability, like any other yes - so like any other it should take up one slot. Only toggles take up two slots, and there really isn't any reason for this either.

I am not sure why people like you are treating the two bars of five skills as special compared to one bar of ten skills. If you had one bar of ten skills, would you expect to have to slot it twice? No? Then why do it for two bars of five skills?

Tuttebel · April 2014

It would be nice to be able to set the pet to aggressive or passive. Not asking for complete control but being able to tell it to stay at my side would be good.
At the moment I summon my winged twilight in a group just for the mana regen buff (morphed). Every fight the stupid thing takes off and dies in the first few seconds ...
I still have to find a use for the damned thing in pvp.

For me, the summons are only good while soloing and even then it's a bit meh