Building hawkeye is incredibly easy in PVP lol.

I would love a buff or two. But its not that bad right now. DW enchant nerf drops them down much more comparably to Bow or 2H.

And BTW 48k+ is achievable on stam DK Bow/Bow.

While some love would be needed its nowhere near as dire as you make it sound. I am not some godlike player so alone with no support I manage 'just' 50k on meta stamina warden build on 6M dummy. On my bow/bow warden I can do 46k. I ddont know anyone who is doing 60k or smth dps but if they were getting that much I am sure they would also be getting much more from bow.

Now dont forget those are melee builds. Builds that are losing DPS in every mobile fight. So comparing it to ranged magicka builds (minus vulnerability ^^) would be much more fair.

The biggest love bow needs and always needed, something to finally say: "yes they are at this dps level" because they would have all the necessary tools is having instant spammable on bow line that would finally work with the passives that are there to somewhat offset the damage difference.

NyassaV wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I wouldn't mind a buff that also occurs in PVP. I don't see many "true" archers (most players run bow back bar), and ZOS is further nerfing ganking with the Khajiit/Bosmer changes.

I wouldn't mind seeing a stronger re-work to the Hawk Eye passive because it has PVE written all over it. In it's current state it's not easy to stack it in PVP, so it can be a wasted passive.
"Your successful Light and Heavy Attacks increase the damage of your Bow abilities by 5% for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ6L4omudnE&t=713s

You kinda have to use a 2h on back bar so you can have really but otherwise it's all bow

Using 2H defeats the purpose of making a bow/bow build.

While some love would be needed its nowhere near as dire as you make it sound. I am not some godlike player so alone with no support I manage 'just' 50k on meta stamina warden build on 6M dummy. On my bow/bow warden I can do 46k.

Very true, but somehow bow scales differently with raid buffs. My warden is 54k with dw (self buffed) and 45k with bow/bow (self buffed). In trials on zmaja I do ~43k with DW, but only 26k with bow/bow. And nop, it's not a L2PBow issue^^ Probably sth. about my knowledge about bow+sets.

FakeFox wrote: »

Every Bow/Bow rotation I've seen so far consists of 5-6 active skills and is absolutely braindead. I don't see any reason why something like that should be able to pull competitive DPS. So in my opinon bow and stamina range in general would need a complete rework to enable proper rotations and have complex mechanics.

That applies to most classes, magicka aswell - just have a look at the pet sorc on current pts, that is not the definition of challenging...

But I totally second you oppinion, more complex and mechanics/synergy intense rotations would be very much appreciated! Nevertheless stamina dds are absolutely contrary to challenging trial mechanics that inflict movement, special tasks or anything else that goes beyond "stack on the boss and pull off your rotation" due to how healing and support mechanics are designed atm. We NEED bow/bow to be viable. Then there is still the need for shields........... But I have given up on that.

A stam sorcs bow/bow rotation consists of prebuffing channeled acceleration - endless - caltrops - pi - focussed aim x6, cast ballista or channeled acceleration when needed. 43k+ dps, 0 sustain issues.

Surprisingly I got a 48k dps parse on pts which is 4k higher than the 44k highest parse on melee dw, although I did use the range bonus and dw doesn't have minor fracture. The fact that they are so close is almost upsetting and I like to think of that +4k dps as a symbol of the extra uptime I'd get in a fight where I have to run around on a melee toon to get in range.

It's at a point where even within melee range, my bow/bow setup outputs within 1k dps of melee at 43-44k

You can complicate your rotation with skills like shalks, power of the light or FoO, but ultimately spamming snipe nets easier dps with no complexity. Easier sustain, easier uptime on dps because of ranged, a dummy parse doesn't take in to account downtime in a boss fight that can be used to reapply channeled acceleration that is currently the only downside for bow/bow. Want same defence as sta dd using blade cloak? Use Elude.

I'm conflicted, I'm happy bow/bow works so well, but it's doing it the wrong way. The easy, boring way. The way that makes no sense from a combat perspective.

@Letho2469 what?
How can a dummy parse look better than a trial parse when being ranged is an advantage in almost every difficult trial in the game?

@Marshall1289 have you tested your bow build with Tzogvin’s Warband? At a glance this set looks perfect for a bow/bow build.

STOP! They'll just nerf everything else to make it look better by comparison.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

@Tannus15: It doesn't look better, it looks relatively better. And the answer is scaling. Just go into a trial and try it out yourself and you will see, what I mean. Compared to a ranged magicka dd bow/bow just sucks.

Letho2469 wrote: »

Very true, but somehow bow scales differently with raid buffs. My warden is 54k with dw (self buffed) and 45k with bow/bow (self buffed). In trials on zmaja I do ~43k with DW, but only 26k with bow/bow. And nop, it's not a L2PBow issue^^ Probably sth. about my knowledge about bow+sets.

How is this possible? with a claim like that you need a parse to showcase what's missing here. Not every trial group is the same, when you tried DW you could of been looking at aoe dps which is higher with scorch, higher uptime on buffs/debuffs, maybe synergies. Your bow/bow setup could be weaker than DW, maybe you chose to stay at range instead of being in range for group buffs.

Can anyone confirm this with a parse.. You can use a dummy parse with the same buffs/debuffs to showcase what you mean.

Well what does a trial give you..

Max penetration, minor berserk, major berserk, warhorns for major force and max resources, minor brutality, minor savagery. The reason you see higher NB parses is because they already have minor berserk and minor savagery, they're also built really well for a ranged playstyle, it's still dps efficient to use relentless focus.

I'm assuming the problem is bow's 25% is additive with 8% from minor berserk where you expect minor berserk to multiply your bow abilities after the +25%, the same is probably true for the +12% long shot passive.

This is how it probably works?
Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot + Minor Berserk) = dmg
30,000 * (1 + .25 + .12 + .08) = dmg
30,000 * (1.45) = dmg
43,500

This is maybe how you expect it to work.
(Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot) * Minor Berserk) = dmg
(Snipe * (1 + 0.25 + 0.12)) * 1.08 = dmg
(30,000 * (1.37))* 1.08 = dmg
41,100 * 1.08 = dmg
44388

Even if this is the case, the difference isn't very high. In parses with proper support buffs mag dd and sta dd's can hit 60k dps (based on Liko's parses) and they have similar multipliers like the 15% from cc'ed enemies for DW. I'm willing to bet with the same buffs my 44-48k bow/bow parse on stam sorc could easily hit 60k dps too, with the benefit of being able to fight from range.

Personally I dont play with 'endgame enough' groups to have some stable environment with all buffs and debuffs with perfect uptime but outside the expected "if you buff all damages by x% by giving everyone berserk, brutalities, penetration you will +/- increase the dps gap by same %" I havent noticed anything that would say bow is failing that much in real fights. Tho I also dont do bow parses with snipe shooting from 28m range. So I have no idea where he come to that conclusion and would very much like to see some parses with visible impactful buff/debuff uptimes.

@Tannus15 Eh, Tzogvin’s Warband looks underwhelming to me.

Let's say you have 55% crit, that means it will take you on average 15-20 light attacks to build 10 stacks to actually get the minor force. The only benefit of running this set means you don't need to use channel acceleration, but it takes +15 seconds to have it active. Thats a lot of DPS lost.

The set may perform well on the 6m dummy because you can keep the stack active for a longer duration with only minor force downtime of 15 seconds or so in the beginning, but in a real fight channeled acceleration can be prebuffed in a lot of encounters taking out the con of the long cast time.

The value of the crit it provides on the 5pc is also only 1290 at max stacks or about 5.9% crit and the penetration is also lost anytime you go to back bar because it's on the 4 pc, which is really annoying to have differing pen values.. It would be better as your main set, but relequen is BiS as a main set.

The plus side is this set could be front barred, but there is much better sets in terms of strength as well as the fact that it would take longer to get the 10 stacks front barred by missing out on at least 2 light attacks from back bar.

If you want a great setup, use relequen + twice fanged serpent, thief/warrior mundus. VMA bow back bar and Perfect BRP front bar. Have to be at least 10m range for BRP bow to be useful enough that the dot lasts, in melee range it's only 4 sec and I'd avoid using scatter shot and just use snipe.

If you want something more versatile without a reliance on ranged, relequen + veiled heritance, lover mundus. VMA bow back bar, veiled bow front bar. Use Velidreth or Storm Fist monster set. Veiled can have +95% uptime easily. Using the same setup on my DW stam sorc is within 1k dps of each other in melee range.

If Redguard goes live, it's very strong for bow/bow builds because snipe/ballista are already the most powerful options available and they get reduced cost. I was able to use blue food and infused absorb stamina on stam sorc and had no sustain issues,

It would seem difficult to get both the max range damage buff for bows and the Minor Berserk buff from Combat Prayer.

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

@Tannus15: It doesn't look better, it looks relatively better. And the answer is scaling. Just go into a trial and try it out yourself and you will see, what I mean. Compared to a ranged magicka dd bow/bow just sucks.

Letho2469 wrote: »

Very true, but somehow bow scales differently with raid buffs. My warden is 54k with dw (self buffed) and 45k with bow/bow (self buffed). In trials on zmaja I do ~43k with DW, but only 26k with bow/bow. And nop, it's not a L2PBow issue^^ Probably sth. about my knowledge about bow+sets.

How is this possible? with a claim like that you need a parse to showcase what's missing here. Not every trial group is the same, when you tried DW you could of been looking at aoe dps which is higher with scorch, higher uptime on buffs/debuffs, maybe synergies. Your bow/bow setup could be weaker than DW, maybe you chose to stay at range instead of being in range for group buffs.

Can anyone confirm this with a parse.. You can use a dummy parse with the same buffs/debuffs to showcase what you mean.

Well what does a trial give you..

Max penetration, minor berserk, major berserk, warhorns for major force and max resources, minor brutality, minor savagery. The reason you see higher NB parses is because they already have minor berserk and minor savagery, they're also built really well for a ranged playstyle, it's still dps efficient to use relentless focus.

I'm assuming the problem is bow's 25% is additive with 8% from minor berserk where you expect minor berserk to multiply your bow abilities after the +25%, the same is probably true for the +12% long shot passive.

This is how it probably works?
Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot + Minor Berserk) = dmg
30,000 * (1 + .25 + .12 + .08) = dmg
30,000 * (1.45) = dmg
43,500

This is maybe how you expect it to work.
(Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot) * Minor Berserk) = dmg
(Snipe * (1 + 0.25 + 0.12)) * 1.08 = dmg
(30,000 * (1.37))* 1.08 = dmg
41,100 * 1.08 = dmg
44388

Even if this is the case, the difference isn't very high. In parses with proper support buffs mag dd and sta dd's can hit 60k dps (based on Liko's parses) and they have similar multipliers like the 15% from cc'ed enemies for DW. I'm willing to bet with the same buffs my 44-48k bow/bow parse on stam sorc could easily hit 60k dps too, with the benefit of being able to fight from range.

Personally I dont play with 'endgame enough' groups to have some stable environment with all buffs and debuffs with perfect uptime but outside the expected "if you buff all damages by x% by giving everyone berserk, brutalities, penetration you will +/- increase the dps gap by same %" I havent noticed anything that would say bow is failing that much in real fights. Tho I also dont do bow parses with snipe shooting from 28m range. So I have no idea where he come to that conclusion and would very much like to see some parses with visible impactful buff/debuff uptimes.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

It would seem difficult to get both the max range damage buff for bows and the Minor Berserk buff from Combat Prayer.

SodanTok wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Letho2469 wrote: »

@Tannus15: It doesn't look better, it looks relatively better. And the answer is scaling. Just go into a trial and try it out yourself and you will see, what I mean. Compared to a ranged magicka dd bow/bow just sucks.

Letho2469 wrote: »

Very true, but somehow bow scales differently with raid buffs. My warden is 54k with dw (self buffed) and 45k with bow/bow (self buffed). In trials on zmaja I do ~43k with DW, but only 26k with bow/bow. And nop, it's not a L2PBow issue^^ Probably sth. about my knowledge about bow+sets.

How is this possible? with a claim like that you need a parse to showcase what's missing here. Not every trial group is the same, when you tried DW you could of been looking at aoe dps which is higher with scorch, higher uptime on buffs/debuffs, maybe synergies. Your bow/bow setup could be weaker than DW, maybe you chose to stay at range instead of being in range for group buffs.

Can anyone confirm this with a parse.. You can use a dummy parse with the same buffs/debuffs to showcase what you mean.

Well what does a trial give you..

Max penetration, minor berserk, major berserk, warhorns for major force and max resources, minor brutality, minor savagery. The reason you see higher NB parses is because they already have minor berserk and minor savagery, they're also built really well for a ranged playstyle, it's still dps efficient to use relentless focus.

I'm assuming the problem is bow's 25% is additive with 8% from minor berserk where you expect minor berserk to multiply your bow abilities after the +25%, the same is probably true for the +12% long shot passive.

This is how it probably works?
Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot + Minor Berserk) = dmg
30,000 * (1 + .25 + .12 + .08) = dmg
30,000 * (1.45) = dmg
43,500

This is maybe how you expect it to work.
(Snipe * (1 + Hawk Eye + Long Shot) * Minor Berserk) = dmg
(Snipe * (1 + 0.25 + 0.12)) * 1.08 = dmg
(30,000 * (1.37))* 1.08 = dmg
41,100 * 1.08 = dmg
44388

Even if this is the case, the difference isn't very high. In parses with proper support buffs mag dd and sta dd's can hit 60k dps (based on Liko's parses) and they have similar multipliers like the 15% from cc'ed enemies for DW. I'm willing to bet with the same buffs my 44-48k bow/bow parse on stam sorc could easily hit 60k dps too, with the benefit of being able to fight from range.

Personally I dont play with 'endgame enough' groups to have some stable environment with all buffs and debuffs with perfect uptime but outside the expected "if you buff all damages by x% by giving everyone berserk, brutalities, penetration you will +/- increase the dps gap by same %" I havent noticed anything that would say bow is failing that much in real fights. Tho I also dont do bow parses with snipe shooting from 28m range. So I have no idea where he come to that conclusion and would very much like to see some parses with visible impactful buff/debuff uptimes.

I'm hitting 49.5k in melee on my DK. Yaagrr hits 50k in melee with his on live. The only difference is I'm providing my own Major Fracture and he has someone applying it for him. That really isn't so far off Melee and should get all the buffs of everyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX9L5tmT_fc

Letho2469 wrote: »

Yagrs build relies on venomous claw which totally contradicts the sense of a ranged dd. Sadly i can't say anything about DK as i never tested it. My warden hits 54k on 6mio. the dummy with major fracture. Sadly no bow build I have seen so far comes even close to that

What sets? do you have a parse saved?

The big problem with bow/bow (and yes my main is one) is that a bow golded out is the same damage as a one handed weapon golded out. So a duel wield character of anywhere near competence level is always going to have much more damage. I figure it is some "balance" thing but why do 2handers get an extra 15% or so but bows don't? Also of course no spamable for bows other than snipe is why wardens with the bird at range outperform the other bow/bows.