I agree with that solution. It'll keep the values the same for S&B tanks and ice tanks.

another solution is to make your main hand enchant work at 100% and your back hand enchant unable to proc

Yeah...
Instead of nerfing enchants, just make the offhand trait and enchant not be able to proc or boost stats. Then rebuff one handed weapons to their two handed counterparts

Tyrobag wrote: »

For those who missed it:

Enchants on one handed weapons will now be half the potency of those placed on two handed weapons. This will apply to the damage and effectiveness of enchants, but will not affect the cooldown.

• This means an enchant that would normally have a 4 second cooldown and deal 4000 damage on a two handed weapon will deal 2000 Damage, but still have a 4 second cooldown.

For dual wield this means that you now get 1 glyph's worth of power, same as the 2h weapon types. For stam dps using dual wield (like 80% of stam builds) this sucks, but may (or may not) simply serve to even out the weapon choice for stamina dps.

1h & Shield only gets 1 enchantment, but its still going to get cut in half. This means that where all other weapon types get 1 glyph worth of power, 1h & Shield only gets .5 worth. Typically tanks run an infused crusher glyph, giving 2108 penetration for the group. Now that will be reduced to 1054, a massive nerf on something that didn't need to be nerfed. Not to mention that this makes Torug's worthless for tanks too.

Since this was just collateral damage from the attempt to make 2h viable by nerfing dual wield I hope that ZoS will consider fixing the issue rather than just leaving it.

My recommendation would be to change the Sword and Board Passive to include a 100% buff to weapon enchantments, thus leaving 1h and Shield where it is and still getting the nerf to dual wield.

But it doesn't give dual wield "1 glyph's worth of power, same as the 2h weapn types" because enchants don't stack. It gives them two half enchants. The best solution as far as I can see for both DW and SnB is for only the main hand to accept a weapon enchant, and for that enchant to be full value. This is an attempt to 'balance' DW against under-performing 2h rather than actually addressing the serious issues with the 2h skills and passives, and it is hurting SnB in the process.

Peekachu99 wrote: »

With CP inflation and gear-creep the extra 1-1.5% damage from Crusher is pretty irrelevant unless you’re running with absolute incompetents.

I guess all the Trial groups that min/max and score push are “absolute incompetents”. Who knew *shrugs*

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Hamrb wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

With CP inflation and gear-creep the extra 1-1.5% damage from Crusher is pretty irrelevant unless you’re running with absolute incompetents.

I guess all the Trial groups that min/max and score push are “absolute incompetents”. Who knew *shrugs*

You’re telling me the try-hard elite of ESO are really gonna miss that percentage with their multiple 70K+ dps? Gimmie a break. Parses get higher and higher every patch. This change still won’t rein in power creep.

Show me a lower parse from Hodor on PTS and maybe you’d have some credibility.

You do know that the higher your dps goes, the more 1% dps equals right? And that this nerf will equal out to more than 1% dps. And will probably change the meta gear tanks wear.

Anyways, saying something like people won’t miss the damage because it’s so low is side stepping the original point that a nerf meant to bring DW damage closer 2hander damage is having a side effect that has nothing to do with the purpose of the nerf.

Also referring to people in a game as “absolute incompetents” makes me feel like you might be a “try-hard elite”

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

They could add a passive that doubles your weapon enchant effect in 1h+shield skill tree.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The nerf is fine. Wear an ice staff and run wall. Or have a healer run crusher. Though I do believe that with so many people being up in arms about it, they will cave and somehow give back the full enchant value to s/b. Then again, @Liofa said he brought it up an objection in a class representative meeting and they still put it on PTS. So we will see.

I really wish we dont have to see they day when tanks throw their shields into a ditch and run with double ice staves… what kind of RPG has tanks that run without shields becouse it is holding them back? Could as well just delete shields from the game.

...

Tanks having a backbar staff to upkeep crusher through wall has been meta (iirc) since at least thieves guild. This doesn't affect tanks in any meaningful way.

You’re right that it probably won’t effect the endgame community as much as people are acting. But it’s still a big adjustment for tanks that are still learning content, especially vet dlc trials. The bar swapping and less resist back bar both can really steepen the learning curve.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DocFrost72 , if backbar staff was meta, then surely not to keep crusher uptime, but more like Minor Vulnerability. Crusher's place was on front bar. With Wall of Elements, you can't reliably control which mob Crusher will latch onto - it should start proccing on closest one at the moment of WoE cast, but the closest distance calculation is finicky and with mobs around all bets are off. Especially if some of them were freshly chained in and rooted in place, they're first candidates to steal crusher from the boss.

Riddle me this then: why put crusher on backbar and not on Sword and shield then, so as to pick your application better? The answer is because the amount of times an add steals this debuff from the boss is negligible.

You're not wrong, I just disagree with how much of an issue it is (I never have a problem).

Hamrb wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

They could add a passive that doubles your weapon enchant effect in 1h+shield skill tree.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The nerf is fine. Wear an ice staff and run wall. Or have a healer run crusher. Though I do believe that with so many people being up in arms about it, they will cave and somehow give back the full enchant value to s/b. Then again, @Liofa said he brought it up an objection in a class representative meeting and they still put it on PTS. So we will see.

I really wish we dont have to see they day when tanks throw their shields into a ditch and run with double ice staves… what kind of RPG has tanks that run without shields becouse it is holding them back? Could as well just delete shields from the game.

...

Tanks having a backbar staff to upkeep crusher through wall has been meta (iirc) since at least thieves guild. This doesn't affect tanks in any meaningful way.

You’re right that it probably won’t effect the endgame community as much as people are acting. But it’s still a big adjustment for tanks that are still learning content, especially vet dlc trials. The bar swapping and less resist back bar both can really steepen the learning curve.

Why is 1k pen going to matter if you're learning? I'm honestly hoping this doesn't come off as rude or standoffish, just legitimately curious. Seems to me the individual would be trying to clear, not be fancy if they are still learning.

Fair question. But why learn content with a large crutch in a way that you’ll just have to learn it all over again. IMO you’d want to tackle it the “right” way. It’s like learning to heal trials without paying attention to buffs and debuffs. Keeping everyone alive is priority, but you’re not truly doing your job right. Also with torugs pact the 1k pen scales up obviously.

Hamrb wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DocFrost72 , if backbar staff was meta, then surely not to keep crusher uptime, but more like Minor Vulnerability. Crusher's place was on front bar. With Wall of Elements, you can't reliably control which mob Crusher will latch onto - it should start proccing on closest one at the moment of WoE cast, but the closest distance calculation is finicky and with mobs around all bets are off. Especially if some of them were freshly chained in and rooted in place, they're first candidates to steal crusher from the boss.

Riddle me this then: why put crusher on backbar and not on Sword and shield then, so as to pick your application better? The answer is because the amount of times an add steals this debuff from the boss is negligible.

You're not wrong, I just disagree with how much of an issue it is (I never have a problem).

Hamrb wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Sinolai wrote: »

They could add a passive that doubles your weapon enchant effect in 1h+shield skill tree.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

The nerf is fine. Wear an ice staff and run wall. Or have a healer run crusher. Though I do believe that with so many people being up in arms about it, they will cave and somehow give back the full enchant value to s/b. Then again, @Liofa said he brought it up an objection in a class representative meeting and they still put it on PTS. So we will see.

I really wish we dont have to see they day when tanks throw their shields into a ditch and run with double ice staves… what kind of RPG has tanks that run without shields becouse it is holding them back? Could as well just delete shields from the game.

...

Tanks having a backbar staff to upkeep crusher through wall has been meta (iirc) since at least thieves guild. This doesn't affect tanks in any meaningful way.

You’re right that it probably won’t effect the endgame community as much as people are acting. But it’s still a big adjustment for tanks that are still learning content, especially vet dlc trials. The bar swapping and less resist back bar both can really steepen the learning curve.

Why is 1k pen going to matter if you're learning? I'm honestly hoping this doesn't come off as rude or standoffish, just legitimately curious. Seems to me the individual would be trying to clear, not be fancy if they are still learning.

Fair question. But why learn content with a large crutch in a way that you’ll just have to learn it all over again. IMO you’d want to tackle it the “right” way. It’s like learning to heal trials without paying attention to buffs and debuffs. Keeping everyone alive is priority, but you’re not truly doing your job right. Also with torugs pact the 1k pen scales up obviously.

I can respect that answer. I just don't see the problem with someone learning wearing torug-plague, especially in four man dungeons. You can always learn the right way to buff in the wrong gear, and as you learn more advanced methods of anticipating incoming pressure, swap out defensive sets for buff sets.

I'd imagine the Woeler of tomorrow doesn't start today by wearing Alkosh and ebon.

Kerioko wrote: »

SnB gets the extra enchant on shield though, so it kind of balances out.

Without this change, aside from other glaring issues like taunts, SnB is far ahead of ice staff in terms of tanking.

But as others have posted an easy adjustment is to run crusher on backbar ice staff and have healers run the damage reduction glyph.

One fix that could work is to treat shield as a weapon in terms of glyphs and allow you to put a weapon glyph on it. Then you could run crusher on both sword and shield and get the same bonus as two handed, but you would lose the extra armor glyph.

This doesn’t work atm enchants have cool down based on its type so you can’t get two of the same enchants to proc as one. Only one will proc at a time.

There are few things some of you are completely ignoring. Tanks who depend on blockade to proc Crusher uses Weakening on SnB. With this change, it's a nerf for those. There are people who do the exact opposite, nerf to those. People who run double SnB, nerf to those. People who run low sustain classes that use Absorb Stamina enchant, nerf to those. I use Crusher on both bars but barely slot Blockade. I use Staff for other utilities. Now I don't have a choice but to run Blockade. Whatever perspective you look from, it's a nerf. A big one that is.

It's not only a support/utility nerf but also a sustain one. Many people used Absorb Stamina and Crusher. Now they have to choose which one will be lower. Of course they will choose Crusher on Staff and Absorb Stamina on SnB, resulting in less sustain. Now that we have to spend extra resources on Blockade (or Endless Hail), there is another sustain hit.

My point is, it doesn't matter who uses what. As long as you use SnB on your tank, it's a nerf. Someone already mentioned, this affects high ping tanks more than others. Constantly having to bar swap makes you more vulnerable to attacks since it drops your block.

There are different side effects to this change as well. It's about gameplay and diversity in tanking builds. Firstly, let's talk about gameplay. On live, I use SnB skills to proc my enchants. I like to time them and this type of gameplay creates a minigame where I try to keep my enchants up with proper timing while doing normal tank stuff. It creates this small multi tasking challenge. Next patch, it's gonna be "drop blockade/hail and that's it". It's not fun really. I've been playing like this on live server for the past week for getting myself ready to next patch but I must say, it took all the enjoyment of tanking for me. Not because it's different, because it's not fun to do the same thing over and over again. There is no tactical gameplay. It's boring. Anyway, let's talk about diversity. Double SnB builds. They are dead. No such thing anymore. On live, you can see pretty successful tanks running double SnB and do perfectly well. Next patch, you don't have this choice anymore. This kills diversity. This change does not encourage you into running Staff/Bow back bar, it forces you into it. It just kills diversity. Poisons are not even a choice due to SnB not having a DoT skill to proc them reliably and light/heavy attacks are not as easy to do as they would be on a healer or DD. In the end, in my opinion, this is not a change that's been properly thought out and needs a change.

To add to previous insightful comment by Liofa - this change will only widen the gap between end/exp'ed tanks and starting ones. Gap which imo is very big already. For experienced tanks using bow or ice wont be a problem, most already do, or if they don't due to prioritizing other skills, it not much an issue (ignoring the fact that they are too now loosing build diversity).
But for beginner tanks, it's very common to go double SnB, because it is safer and double crusher. So in this case either their group suffers DPS loss and we get even more DPS gap, or beginner is pushed to use Ice/Bow which means you drop even more weight on their shoulders. Ib4 someone says "oh but if you need ice/bow for end game anyway, why not learn it already", few people find playing tank enjoyable already, there will be even less if you kill diversity and make entry level harder.