Redguards' " Martial Training" Racial Passive doesn't make sense.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Exhilaration: 9% Stamina Recovery → Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.

How come Redguards get better/economical with using staves than altmer or dunmer?
Or at all, since they are a stamina melee weapons based culture, and they fancy magic just as much as nords and orcs.

I think this should be replaced with a stamina ability cost reduction, and not just weapons. And it will also not be limiting Redguards from using class abilities freely.

I mean you can even reduce a percentage point, if you really have to. Making it a version of the new Breton passive(Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%).

EDIT:
Furthermore, and more importantly, higher resource buffs, or hybrid buffs are active all the time for Dunmer and Altmer.

If you are stamina Altmer, you get full benefit of the (higher resources restoration) passive.
If you are a dunmer, you sill get full benefits of the hybrid(max resources) passive.

But a Redguard(stamina or magicka) cannot benefit from half of the weapons it is supposedly getting a "buff" for. This is a #NERFINDISGIUSE

ToRelax · January 2019

So... what exactly is it you are worried might happen? If you don't use staves you won't have their skills reduced, and it isn't exactly going to make Redguard a good option for magicka builds, just slightly less handicapped.

DirkRavenclaw · January 2019

As ZOS stated, Redguard is the Ideal, its what all Races get based off

Namarkas · January 2019

Of course it is not lore accurate, but a compromise to change redguard in a way where you are not totally gimping yourself when playing magicka, "just" gimping yourself a lot. For the same reason Orc's regen passive procs of weapon use, altmer gets stamina if it happens to be higher, and khajiit/dunmer became full hybrids,
Think of it like this if you want: because redguards have martial training, they are confident with weapons, so even with a staff in hand their mental attitude helps them

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

As ZOS stated, Redguard is the Ideal, its what all Races get based off

Where did they say that?
But I still think we shouldn't let that be an excuse for inconsistencies in lore, and gameplay streamlining.

@Namarkas "Think of it like this if you want: because redguards have martial training, they are confident with weapons, so even with a staff in hand their mental attitude helps them"

I dont think this would make very much sense Since staves are still magical instruments.

Btw Namarkes, you are from PC EU Hammerfell Tading right? I am Madenshtien

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Furthermore, and more importantly, higher resource buffs, or hybrid buffs are active all the time for Dunmer and Altmer.

If you are stamina Altmer, you get full benefit of the (higher resources restoration) passive.
If you are a dunmer, you sill get full benefits of the hybrid(max resources) passive.

But you cannot very viably make a Redguard that can utilize the full effectiveness of weapons passive, in the same build setup. You will have to reconfigure everything for that to take effect.
For half of your skills, that are class based, you are basically not even getting anything.

A Breton getting benefit for magicka is a true bonus, but a Breton being told he will only get bonus for weapons abilities is a handicap.

vesselwiththepestle · January 2019

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Where did they say that?

Natch Potes PTS 4.3.0 Redguard entry.

Redguards were our golden standard for what races should strive to be, so we used them as a general guideline when rebuilding some of the other races.

Read the developer comments, what you are suggesting (Redguards not being buffed for magicka) is completely against their intentions. So if you want to make an argument for a pure Stamina race of Redguards, you would have to talk about their intentions, not about their solution to achieve those goals.

hakan · January 2019

Even if they use magic, their affinity for weapons never change. including staves. their magic also revolves aroun magic afaik.

MashmalloMan · January 2019

I agree here. While I like the direction they are trying to take in allowing magicka setups to get use out of the 8 % on weapon abilities, it paints RG in to a corner for people that would actually choose RG as a stam race.

You will get better sustain and more unique passives from wood elf if you don't use a weapon ability as a spammable.

Now that crushing weapon is available, weapon ability spammables are less required.

Stam sorc, Stam DK and bow/bow snipe builds will see the most use here. Although Stam DK has venomous claw as a cheap, yet strong spammable. All other stam races work no matter what skills you use.

Should be changed to 1 of 3 options.
-4% cost reduction on mag/sta/ultimate skills
-5% cost reduction on mag/sta
-7% cost reduction on sta skills

RG has nothing else going for it but sustain, make it more accessable like Breton.

LiquidPony · January 2019

And it will also not be limiting Redguards from using class abilities freely.

Is that bad?

If we want to have racial diversity, the races need to have pros and cons. As it stands, Redguards are ideal for builds heavily invested in weapon skills and for other builds, other races are probably stronger.

If you make this a pure stam cost reduction bonus, then Redguard is just the best stam sustain race period. As it stands now, Bosmer is probably a better choice for sustain for builds more focused on class abilities.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

@LiquidPony The goal is to make lore friendly race's whilst giving them their unique flavour.

Bosmer are a sneaky stealthy race that has affinity to animals - whilst redguard is an in your face brawler, with in your face weaponry.

Redguard culture has little to do with staves or magicka. And more to do with stamina and athletics(class?) skills.

Bosmer have been buffed into madness(Have you seen what their 20% speed bonus looks like)
Whilst redguards are being handicapped by an odd "gift".

ZOS is essentially sending redguards on vacation to Alaska, and telling them they can get a hefty discount on buying bikinis.
It does not make sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise. Just replace that "gift" with a stamina version of Breton cost reduction passive, and be done with it.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Should be changed to 1 of 3 options.
-4% cost reduction on mag/sta/ultimate skills
-5% cost reduction on mag/sta
-7% cost reduction on sta skills

Another interesting choice wold be.

- 8% discount on the stam weapon abilities, and magicka class abilities

JobooAGS · January 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

And it will also not be limiting Redguards from using class abilities freely.

Is that bad?

If we want to have racial diversity, the races need to have pros and cons. As it stands, Redguards are ideal for builds heavily invested in weapon skills and for other builds, other races are probably stronger.

If you make this a pure stam cost reduction bonus, then Redguard is just the best stam sustain race period. As it stands now, Bosmer is probably a better choice for sustain for builds more focused on class abilities.

Bosmer also has movement speed and poison resists on top of their sustain making them overall vastly superior to redguard in such classes, and great at classes where redguard is supposedly to be superior at especially in a snare meta. It makes sense for redguard to have the best sustain and not being pigeon holed into classes without a class spammable.

4% on all abilities or 5% for mag and stam abilities would be more fair.

There will already be racial diversity. If you want maximum kiting potential and highest regen, go bosmer. If you want highest sustain, go redguard. If you want a mix of both and dmg, go orc.

Didaco · January 2019

Aw come on, can't we just leave them like they are now on pts and be done with it?
The main goal of this patch is to avoid races to be stuck in a certain archetype and yet we want to downgrade everything for the sake of... Lore? Don't get me wrong, it's important for a 30yo ip to respect its lore, but it's not like we can't find a lore placement for their new passive.

It could be something like their affinity with weaponry makes them have an impeccable technique in weaving staves even if their magic control can't match the elven one.

TL;DR
Imagine Redguard in the Harry Potter universe: Their swish-and-flick is flawless.

JobooAGS · January 2019

Didaco wrote: »

Aw come on, can't we just leave them like they are now on pts and be done with it?
The main goal of this patch is to avoid races to be stuck in a certain archetype and yet we want to downgrade everything for the sake of... Lore? Don't get me wrong, it's important for a 30yo ip to respect its lore, but it's not like we can't find a lore placement for their new passive.

It could be something like their affinity with weaponry makes them have an impeccable technique in weaving staves even if their magic control can't match the elven one.

TL;DR
Imagine Redguard in the Harry Potter universe: Their swish-and-flick is flawless.

Redguard in its current state is bring pigeon holed into clases without weapon spammables. The suggested changes helps eliminate that

clocksstoppe · January 2019

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

JobooAGS · January 2019

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

Changimg the 8% cost reduction to weapon skills to 4% cost reduction to all skills will more add flexability. Even 5% to mag and stam skills will add more flexability.

amir412 · January 2019

Why a person, in their right mind will go redguard for magicka class.
This stuff is beyond me.
"LORE FRIENDLY" demands is literally whats going to kill this game.

Skander · January 2019

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

Namarkas · January 2019

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

As ZOS stated, Redguard is the Ideal, its what all Races get based off

Where did they say that?
But I still think we shouldn't let that be an excuse for inconsistencies in lore, and gameplay streamlining.

@Namarkas "Think of it like this if you want: because redguards have martial training, they are confident with weapons, so even with a staff in hand their mental attitude helps them"

I dont think this would make very much sense Since staves are still magical instruments.

Btw Namarkes, you are from PC EU Hammerfell Tading right? I am Madenshtien

Yes I am and Hi

anyway, I think in an MMO compromises have to be made in terms of balance and lore. They tried to find something that will suit you in some way at least on a mag redguard, while still retaining some lore. And while that outcome sucks for my stamplar, I appreciate the effort

(not to mention that this is still round 1)

JobooAGS · January 2019

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

Pigeon holing

Silver_Strider · January 2019

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study to try and bring that about so I don't think it's really lore breaking if Redguards had some proficiency with Magic Weapons.

Also, you have to look at this from a balancing prospective, instead of a singular one. Redguard will excel with classes that use Weapon Abilities as their standard method of attack with Woodelves being more useful for those that don't. That's a fair and balanced concept since it doesn't devalue other Stamina Races from being competitive but offers Redguard something useful to any build option they choose.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

amir412 wrote: »

Why a person, in their right mind will go redguard for magicka class.
This stuff is beyond me.
"LORE FRIENDLY" demands is literally whats going to kill this game.

First you(correctly) say redguard isn't even a sensible choice for mages. Which implies that the magicka buffs are redundant.
Then you say lore friendliness is the issue. When redguards in lore are supposed to be just that, not mages.

So what are you even talking about?

Also read the thread, it is more than just lore. We are mainly saying that redguards have been pigeonholed way too much, as opposed to bosmer whoa are now way superior than redguards

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

clocksstoppe wrote: »

It makes complete sense. Notice how redguard can actually play a magicka build without being completely ***. Destro abilities cost reduced and stamina recovery on mag direct damage doesnt seem like a mistake. There's a point where lore has to end and gameplay quality has to take over, so they did juat that. You're just looking to take away flexibility for no reason at all.

No it doesnt make sense, please read the thread.

If you are a stamina Altmer, you get full benefit of the (higher resources restoration) passive.
If you are any Dunmer, you get full benefits of the hybrid(max resources) passive.

But you cannot very viably make a Redguard that can utilize the full effectiveness of the weapons reduced costs, as half of the weapons are not even viable for your build as they have an entirely different resource, and penetration system. Why are you not considering that?

What good is a reduced stamina cost of a magicka redguard, and what good is a reduced magicka cost for a stamina redguard? At least Stamina Altmer gains all the stamina from that passive, and doesn't look half arsed RP thing.

For half of your skills, that are class based, you are basically not even getting anything.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Skander wrote: »

8% is also on ultimates. I don't know what you guys are complaining about

And how many builds use those? The best ultimates are mostly not in weapon abilities.
And when have you seen a stamina build use a destro-ult?

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study

Have you ever heard about Arch-mage Shalidor, or Nordic way of the voice?
So where are the Nordic magicka passives?

One can even not make a stamina Altmer, but that is not the mainstream choice. And what is not mainstream is not so because of the racial specialty. And hence one shalidor here and there, doesn't mean the entire race needs a reconfiguration.

There are always exceptions

tactx · January 2019

Leave Redguard alone. You have the option to play it if you want. JFC with the Nerf requests already.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Namarkas wrote: »

They tried to find something that will suit you in some way at least on a mag redguard, while still retaining some lore. And while that outcome sucks for my stamplar, I appreciate the effort (not to mention that this is still round 1)

bruh, like I say when I tlak about altmers having the ability to get max stam now. I am not bothered too much with variability.

But as a gameplay choice, altmer stamplar can get all the stamina from that passive. And no part of that passive is wasted.

But a (stam or mag) redguard nightblade or DK or warden etc will never ever use half the weapons that it is getting that cost reduction for.

So that racial is basically just hampering most to half of the skills it needs for something it will never even use.

I have three redguard, that I enjoy playing, and they have loads of class skill and no weird opposite resource weapons. And I am mad and ranting cuz i would be far better off if all three of them were bosmer, or even a bloody altmer for crying out loud

Silver_Strider · January 2019

madeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study

Have you ever heard about Arch-mage Shalidor, or Nordic way of the voice?
So where are the Nordic magicka passives?

One can even not make a stamina Altmer, but that is not the mainstream choice. And what is not mainstream is not so because of the racial specialty. And hence one shalidor here and there, doesn't mean the entire race needs a reconfiguration.

There are always exceptions

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

JobooAGS · January 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Considering that Redguards have been trying to bring about the return of their Shehai, you know their magical soul swords, it would stand to reason a few Redguards would explore into the magic field of study to try and bring that about so I don't think it's really lore breaking if Redguards had some proficiency with Magic Weapons.

Also, you have to look at this from a balancing prospective, instead of a singular one. Redguard will excel with classes that use Weapon Abilities as their standard method of attack with Woodelves being more useful for those that don't. That's a fair and balanced concept since it doesn't devalue other Stamina Races from being competitive but offers Redguard something useful to any build option they choose.

Wood elves also have movement speed and poison resists, which are very useful in pvp and in some pve contexts like vma or trials with a lot of movement. It makes bosmer better than you think

madeeh91rwb17_ESO · January 2019

Silver_Strider wrote: »

But the Lore suggests that the Ansei were both powerful Mages and Warriors so it would stand to reason that Redguards have a minimalistic benefit to magic all things considered. Just because Redguards choose to ignore magic, it's still an integral part of their lore whereas Shalidor is more an outfitter of the race as a whole since he's the only Nord mage of note with little lore to suggest exactly what Magics Nords excelled at, whereas the Way of the Voice is a training program and not so much a natural talent of Nords.

"That stamina-Redguard is about to unleash his destro-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"

"That Magicka-Redguard is about to unleash his bow-ulti. Hide your kids, hide your wives!"

----
Also
"This stamNB red-guard is still spaming surprise attack. And wondering why he is out of stam. What a dork!