Suggestions for appeasing part of the user base concerning racial passive changes

CleymenZero · January 2019

In light of the patch notes and the data posted here, I would have to change 6 or 7 races to be optimized.

Now, I am of fan of the changes, I think it will make the game more enjoyable for most players but for those, like me, who leveled multiple characters (14 in my case) and chose races based on current passives, I understand that the changes would upset them.

Now I've seen plenty of suggestions some interesting and some ludicrous. I'd like to know if you would have suggestions on how to make sure most are satisfied.

My ideas would be either:

- Sell a Token pack at 6 for 6k Crowns
- Give 4-6 tokens when purchasing Elsweyr or Wrathstone Collector's bundle

In one case, it would allow those that need the tokens to buy them at a reasonable price and for those that are completely fine with the changes and not affected at all to just go on with your life.

In the other case, ZOS obviously here to generate profit, would have a double purpose. They would help the players affected by the changes have a way to alleviate the load they have to bear AND it would also push sales of either the new chapter or the collector's edition of certain DLC.

I think both are good solution that would satisfy players and generate revenue.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Z

Minyassa · January 2019

6k Crowns is a lot of money to force people to spend on a game they already bought and may already be subscribed to. I don't think that they should be making money off forcing people to choose a new race, that's extremely skeevy tactics.

They really need to just offer everyone one character-bound token per character that they currently have, WITH the DLC. Make them non-transferrable between toons and otherwise useless for doing anything but updating that particular character, and have done with it. Offering free race change tokens along with the DLC would not only help calm some people who don't mind changing their race so long as they aren't forced to pay for it, but it might actually push some that were on the fence about the DLC to buy it just for that.

Beardimus · January 2019

@CleymenZero I'm ok with that.

In fact I want to buy Elsyweyr on pre-order but have no real reason this chapter. As mai ly a PvP player the package has little extra susbstance. MW had BG, SS had Jewelry & Psjics. Elysweyr has nadda beyond the PvE content

This would give me a reason to give then £25, that said Ill be staying dunmer main lol just...cos

Siohwenoeht · January 2019

@CleymenZero I like the idea, add on to that being able to trade/sell the free token in game for those (like me) who don't have a need for it.

Undefwun · January 2019

After reading the forums after the patch notes dropped... watching ppl bring things up in streams... in game zone chats and questions... quit threads and so forth...
Seeing testing and data from actually good players coming out...pretty much confirming... no need to panic...
Then still seeing the same first group still ranting and carrying on. Yelling loud but not saying anything... based on nothing...

This is what 95% of the people need for their (baseless) hysterics..

For the first time in a looong time the patch notes were good for the most part. Changes were a lot more subtle, made sense.... didn't feel like ZOS's usual carpet bombing of sledge hammers. Feels like they are setting up future changes.

People acting like they were personally attacked.. that the changes affected ONLY them... 'oh i'm gonna do 4k less dps... rah rah... " Since the changes were to EVERYBODY, that means everyone else will do less... or adapt.

mxxo · January 2019

CleymenZero wrote: »

In light of the patch notes and the data posted here, I would have to change 6 or 7 races to be optimized.

Now, I am of fan of the changes, I think it will make the game more enjoyable for most players but for those, like me, who leveled multiple characters (14 in my case) and chose races based on current passives, I understand that the changes would upset them.

Now I've seen plenty of suggestions some interesting and some ludicrous. I'd like to know if you would have suggestions on how to make sure most are satisfied.

My ideas would be either:

- Sell a Token pack at 6 for 6k Crowns
- Give 4-6 tokens when purchasing Elsweyr or Wrathstone Collector's bundle

In one case, it would allow those that need the tokens to buy them at a reasonable price and for those that are completely fine with the changes and not affected at all to just go on with your life.

In the other case, ZOS obviously here to generate profit, would have a double purpose. They would help the players affected by the changes have a way to alleviate the load they have to bear AND it would also push sales of either the new chapter or the collector's edition of certain DLC.

I think both are good solution that would satisfy players and generate revenue.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Z

Thank you for your effort.. but pls think about 2 things:

1. ZOS did know they would upset a lot of players. It´s not like they are surprised now and we have to tell them.
2. I am supposed to buy smth for 6k crowns to change smth what is not my fault? Honestly? Why? It is already annoying for some of us that we have to think about changing some characters we built carefully and love.. So it´s actually nice of us to accept these changes but then you want us to pay 6k crowns for it? And that is appeasing? Pls leave the Shivering Isles!

(Don´t take it as offence pls)

The only thing which is appeasing, is, that the changes are not really dramatic in most cases. And they are not completely bad for me (besides lore breaking), but i feel as if i have no choice now. The passives may not be that strong, but if we have them i would like to choose them. It makes no sense that we have random passives now, as if we had never chosen a race. It´s like we got them by rolling a dice.

Jamdarius · January 2019

CleymenZero wrote: »

In light of the patch notes and the data posted here, I would have to change 6 or 7 races to be optimized.

Now, I am of fan of the changes, I think it will make the game more enjoyable for most players but for those, like me, who leveled multiple characters (14 in my case) and chose races based on current passives, I understand that the changes would upset them.

Now I've seen plenty of suggestions some interesting and some ludicrous. I'd like to know if you would have suggestions on how to make sure most are satisfied.

My ideas would be either:

- Sell a Token pack at 6 for 6k Crowns
- Give 4-6 tokens when purchasing Elsweyr or Wrathstone Collector's bundle

In one case, it would allow those that need the tokens to buy them at a reasonable price and for those that are completely fine with the changes and not affected at all to just go on with your life.

In the other case, ZOS obviously here to generate profit, would have a double purpose. They would help the players affected by the changes have a way to alleviate the load they have to bear AND it would also push sales of either the new chapter or the collector's edition of certain DLC.

I think both are good solution that would satisfy players and generate revenue.

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Z

And my idea is for 7 days after the changes happen race and name change token should be free 1 of each / character. Pls do note I am not gonna change to any other race myself even though I probably should do it for my magDK DD sake. Any game I have played so far with major changes such as this there was a period of time where we could choose freely skills/abilities/powers/races/class I hope that a game such as ESO will also do it that way.

rexagamemnon · January 2019

The balance was fine until they “balanced” Imperials.
#makeimperialsgreatagain

Sabbathius · January 2019

Not good enough. I created 14 characters with very specifically chosen race bonuses, and lore-appropriate names. They WRECKED this, completely. Now races completely don't match the intended playstyles and builds. And race change won't cut it, because of lore-related naming. Meaning race change packs won't cut it, it needs to be a name and race change, across 10 of my 14 characters. Even if we get a 6-pack for 6k, that's still 12k crowns, of which 2k would be overkill. Because THEY wrecked my characters, I have to pay?! No. They break it, they buy it.

The only solution that would make any kind of sense is a week of free race and name changes. Or 1 token per character. Anything less is a cash grab, and I will be damned if they are going to see a red cent of my money after that.

Ermiq · January 2019

[Disclaimer] in my opinion, racial changes are very good thing.[/Disclaimer]

The idea of giving tokens with Elsweyr/Wrathstone purchase feels like... like a...
Imagine, your favorite ice cream store. They suddenly decide not to give you a stick/spoon (have no idea how to say that in English, sorry) for free.
Your suggestion: "Hey, maybe you could give me a stick/spoon if I buy that new milk cocktail?"
Sounds quite weird, right?
I don't even mention what an explosion it will produce in social media: "ZOS overtly abuses balance changes to force people to buy new chapter/DLC!"

Undefwun · January 2019

Eremith wrote: »

I don't even mention what an explosion it will produce in social media: "ZOS overtly abuses balance changes to force people to buy new chapter/DLC!"

^^ and that is what I am talking about...

Nothing in the changes that have been tested on the PTS remotely suggests that..

Ppl wanted balance.. now they're like.. yeah we wanted balance.. as long as you don't change MY favorite toon...
gtfo...

Arunei · January 2019

@Minyassa
They can't really make them character-bound because they don't go into a character's inventory, they're tracked on the character select screen like the other character-editing token thingers are.

Personally, from the testing I've done so far on my chars in the PTS, I'm not being affected in a negative way and won't be race changing any of my chars. I wouldn't even if they were adversely affected since in the case of the characters I use for PvE and stuff I also use for RP, so their races are kinda locked hah. But for the people who have a lot of characters and are being negatively impacted, I'd say they could at least stand to give us a few more free Race Change Tokens than the one we're getting. Maybe between two-four depending on how many character slots you've unlocked? I sort of wish they were able to be traded, as I wouldn't mind giving the one I'm getting to someone who would actually use it.

dovakiin5574 · January 2019

I'd say once someone logs in after the dlc drops, have the server give them as many tokens as they have characters. That would appease the masses. I however, will not be using any race change tokens because I have seen how well balanced the changes are and I'm not panicking.

barney2525 · January 2019

Sabbathius wrote: »

Not good enough. I created 14 characters with very specifically chosen race bonuses, and lore-appropriate names. They WRECKED this, completely. Now races completely don't match the intended playstyles and builds. And race change won't cut it, because of lore-related naming. Meaning race change packs won't cut it, it needs to be a name and race change, across 10 of my 14 characters. Even if we get a 6-pack for 6k, that's still 12k crowns, of which 2k would be overkill. Because THEY wrecked my characters, I have to pay?! No. They break it, they buy it.

The only solution that would make any kind of sense is a week of free race and name changes. Or 1 token per character. Anything less is a cash grab, and I will be damned if they are going to see a red cent of my money after that.

What?

Just because they changed some passives?

This is the game that I get told over and over that it doesn't matter what your race/class combo is - ALL are viable at least until end game.

So Play What You Want.

Changing a passive is Not a reason to completely dump any character. So you don't get a benefit anymore when you take some action that you do. You CAN still take that action just fine.

Kalle_Demos · January 2019

My suggestion to Zos would be to stick to their Word about 'listening to the community' and 'heavy handed changes'. People are not upset with the 'Balance' itself but that it goes too far and is a veiled Nerf no one wanted. Some races are under performing? GIVE THEM SOMETHING to compensate. Something that could inspire new play styles and builds in contrast to what is happening now which is nuking builds and play styles with characters that players have been working on for years.

dovakiin5574 · January 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

My suggestion to Zos would be to stick to their Word about 'listening to the community' and 'heavy handed changes'. People are not upset with the 'Balance' itself but that it goes too far and is a veiled Nerf no one wanted. Some races are under performing? GIVE THEM SOMETHING to compensate. Something that could inspire new play styles and builds in contrast to what is happening now which is nuking builds and play styles with characters that players have been working on for years.

It's literally fine, why is everyone freaking out lol. Literally no changes are being made to playstyles. I still have my wacky and meta builds on PTS performing at or very close to Live. In fact it is a buff in some cases. The only thing truly different is that Deadly Strike can be used instead of AY and that is a good thing

zaria · January 2019

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

My suggestion to Zos would be to stick to their Word about 'listening to the community' and 'heavy handed changes'. People are not upset with the 'Balance' itself but that it goes too far and is a veiled Nerf no one wanted. Some races are under performing? GIVE THEM SOMETHING to compensate. Something that could inspire new play styles and builds in contrast to what is happening now which is nuking builds and play styles with characters that players have been working on for years.

It's literally fine, why is everyone freaking out lol. Literally no changes are being made to playstyles. I still have my wacky and meta builds on PTS performing at or very close to Live. In fact it is a buff in some cases. The only thing truly different is that Deadly Strike can be used instead of AY and that is a good thing

Yes, magic and stamina DD builds are within 1.3% dps. Class is more of an issue.
Argonians and Imperials is 1.3% down below that.
On the other hand Khaiit and Dunmer will have to run support sets or do plenty of HA in an pug both reducing dps a lot.

Grabs tail. give imperials something say 2K stamina or magic depending on that is higher.
That if they vote to buff Khajiit sustain. As an counter reduce the sneak buff to 3m.

Sabbathius · January 2019

barney2525 wrote: »

Sabbathius wrote: »

Not good enough. I created 14 characters with very specifically chosen race bonuses, and lore-appropriate names. They WRECKED this, completely. Now races completely don't match the intended playstyles and builds. And race change won't cut it, because of lore-related naming. Meaning race change packs won't cut it, it needs to be a name and race change, across 10 of my 14 characters. Even if we get a 6-pack for 6k, that's still 12k crowns, of which 2k would be overkill. Because THEY wrecked my characters, I have to pay?! No. They break it, they buy it.

The only solution that would make any kind of sense is a week of free race and name changes. Or 1 token per character. Anything less is a cash grab, and I will be damned if they are going to see a red cent of my money after that.

What?

Just because they changed some passives?

This is the game that I get told over and over that it doesn't matter what your race/class combo is - ALL are viable at least until end game.

So Play What You Want.

Changing a passive is Not a reason to completely dump any character. So you don't get a benefit anymore when you take some action that you do. You CAN still take that action just fine.

Yes.

Just because they made changes, which counteract choices I made when creating my characters. I created them with specific things in mind, and selected specific races and names for them. Changing those ruins the choices I made. Give me a way to make new choices, based on changes the devs decided to make. But I shouldn't be the one paying for the changes that the devs made.

Yes, all race/class combos are viable. But not all race/class combos are **competitive**. Therein lies the problem.

Changing passives, in a competitive setting, is ABSOLUTELY a reason to completely dump a character. If I can get an identical character, but change the race, and perform better with it, then the old character is no longer competitive.

CleymenZero · January 2019

I wish there was a double factor poll possible to determine what content people play and whether or not they are satisfied with the changes.

I don't know what the person that said that it changed the play style actually meant but I can see it as that: Breton will do as much damage as Altmer without the 258 spell damage BECAUSE it has amazing sustain, that changes your play style and changes which race is best on which class.

Classes that don't have sustain integrated into their skill lines (or if integrated is not as efficient as other class passives or abilities) would benefit from being a Breton. I'm looking at you magsorc!

Classes with good sustain (magplar, magden and magblade) can go any race but with relatively good sustain, they can be good with any race but great with Altmer, Dunmer or Khajit.

That is a significant change. I would've made different choices for different classes knowing this based on what I want to play. I had an orc and a Breton that I race-changed to be more efficient at doing end-game content. Now I wouldn't have paid to change them if I had known.

Now that was only 2 characters so 2 tokens (bought during a sale where they were 1.5k Crowns last year). Based on passives right now, I estimate that I would change at least 6-7 toons out of my 14. That is a HUGE expense that I don't want to make for a game to which I subscribe and regularly pay to get added content on top of my subscription.

To those who say 6k Crown is too much, that suggestion came out of the fact that I think they made changes KNOWING a lot of players would want to change race and they factored it into their projected revenues. Since they want to make revenue out of this move, I would pay but only to a certain point.

To those who say that including race-change tokens with DLC/chapter purchases is not a good solution, again, they are here to make money, they want to push the next chapter and doing this, I am sure, would increase the number of purchases of the new chapter especially from the end-game community.

To people say that we are overreacting I say again that I like the choices but changes to the meta in the past have never required you to pay money to adapt. When you had to get the psijic order skill line, you had to pay for the chapter and got jewelry crafting, a whole new region to explore and more. This time, to adapt to the meta, you have to pay only to race change and get no content. That's where I draw the line.

To those who say that the meta hasn't really changed I say that, since I play both PvE and PvP with ALL my characters, the changes proposed do constitute a change in the meta. Orcs weren't able to DPS in PvE effectively but were a great PvP race. Khajit weren't able to mag, Dunmer weren't able to stam, Breton were the 3rd choice for mag DPS and is now arguably the 1st.

Those are significant changes and all this constitutes, in my opinion, a change in the meta and since the only way top optimize and maximize results and make choices that suits your play style (sustain vs damage for example) this constitutes a monetization of the eta.

Remember, this is only on the dummy. I don't have any data on actual raids etc but I say that Breton will be king for magDPS.

mxxo · January 2019

CleymenZero wrote: »

I wish there was a double factor post possible to determine what content people play and whether or not they are satisfied with the changes.

I don't know what the person that said that it changed the play style actually meant but I can see it as that: Breton will do as much damage as Altmer without the 258 spell damage BECAUSE it has amazing sustain, that changes your play style and changes which race is best on which class.

Classes that don't have sustain integrated into their skill lines (or if integrated is not as efficient as other class passives or abilities) would benefit from being a Breton. I'm looking at you magsorc!

Classes with good sustain (magplar, magden and magblade) can go any race but with relatively good sustain, they can be good with any race but great with Altmer, Dunmer or Khajit.

That is a significant change. I would've made different choices for different classes knowing this based on what I want to play. I had an orc and a Breton that I race-changed to be more efficient at doing end-game content. Now I wouldn't have paid to change them if I had known.

Now that was only 2 characters so 2 tokens (bought during a sale where they were 1.5k Crowns last year). Based on passives right now, I estimate that I would change at least 6-7 toons out of my 14. That is a HUGE expense that I don't want to make for a game to which I subscribe and regularly pay to get added content on top of my subscription.

To those who say 6k Crown is too much, that suggestion came out of the fact that I think they made changes KNOWING a lot of players would want to change race and they factored it into their projected revenues. Since they want to make revenue out of this move, I would pay but only to a certain point.

To those who say that including race-change tokens with DLC/chapter purchases is not a good solution, again, they are here to make money, they want to push the next chapter and doing this, I am sure, would increase the number of purchases of the new chapter especially from the end-game community.

To people say that we are overreacting I say again that I like the choices but changes to the meta in the past have never required you to pay money to adapt. When you had to get the psijic order skill line, you had to pay for the chapter and got jewelry crafting, a whole new region to explore and more. This time, to adapt to the meta, you have to pay only to race change and get no content. That's where I draw the line.

To those who say that the meta hasn't really changed I say that, since I play both PvE and PvP with ALL my characters, the changes proposed do constitute a change in the meta. Orcs weren't able to DPS in PvE effectively but were a great PvP race. Khajit weren't able to mag, Dunmer weren't able to stam, Breton were the 3rd choice for mag DPS and is now arguably the 1st.

Those are significant changes and all this constitutes, in my opinion, a change in the meta and since the only way top optimize and maximize results and make choices that suits your play style (sustain vs damage for example) this constitutes a monetization of the eta.

Remember, this is only on the dummy. I don't have any data on actual raids etc but I say that Breton will be king for magDPS.

You are right, sry, i was a bit too negative.