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PvP Is In Crises Mode

Vapirko
Vapirko
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I’m going to try not to ramble here but this question has to be asked, WTF is going in PvP as a whole? We’re going another patch without even a small step towards balancing the lack of mobilty, and moving towards PvP that truly supports diverse builds and use of all armor types. I feel confident that the majority of PvPers are tired of playing a game that feels like you’re waking through knee deep mud. Or like you’re punished for not being a tank blob. The most recently emerged meta is that of slow moving, snare tanks that rely on AOE damage.

If you step into BGs, especially as a solo player, chances are you’re going to be pitted against one or two teams of tether tanks. They often win unless you get lucky enough to have some awesome pugs with you. But they don’t usually win by much because they’re not terribly effective just very hard to kill. And what really gets me is that if it wasn’t for the rest of us, people who try to play normal builds, who try and play medium armor or maybe light, we are punished in this meta. If it wasn’t for players like us these groups wouldn’t even have anyone to kill because they’d all sit there in a circle and tether each other until the match ends. Thats not a joke, it literally happens. Deaths counts that top out at maybe 1-3 per player in a death match. And this is not limited to BGs, it’s all over Cyro as well, except there you have the option of walking away as literally 4-5 people struggle to take you down in medium armor. Well this AOE snare/tank meta whatever you want to call it isn’t that new or unknown, there’s no way ZOS doesn’t know about it.

So why am I posting this in PTS. Look at the sets they’re introducing this patch, almost all of them are tanky sets featuring resistances, one rewards you just for sitting there and holding block and it brings up a mini permafrost with no *** cool down. Now whether or not that set is any good is almost besides the point. Where is the combat teams head at? What exactly are they thinking? They’re introducing, as sets, the most problematic, dynamic combat destroying attributes and abilities. These sets encourage builds that do nothing but sit there. Hopefully we see the worst of these sets nerfed before live (looking at you curse eater). Every patch they bring in some busted sets and inevitably at least one makes it through and we spend several months sufffeing until it’s nerfed.

Some good things are in this patch, and I’m more or less on board with the race balances, but I’m confounded by the fact that despite everything this game as been through in the past year, we’re still wasting time on the worst aspects of PvP instead of moving in the direction of healthy, skill based combat that rewards decent builds and doesn’t make it a completely uphill battle for people actually trying to play this game and not just jumping on every broken aspect.
Edited by Vapirko on January 24, 2019 1:59AM
  • Defilted
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    Everything was faster until the call for speed nerfs. Now we are here in the slow meta.
    XBOX NA
    XBOX Series X

    #NightmareBear
  • Solariken
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    Agreed, it's totally out of hand. I was fine with the mobility nerfs overall, but there needed to be nerfs to mobility debuffing to complement.

    It's bad at max level, but it's AWFUL in lowbie bg's. People just blob up and spam aoe snares and immobilizes and there is no getting out of it.
  • gepe87
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    Rapids nerf will change a bit, but ball group will find a way to get through, we have enough proof from past. Nerfs may be introduced, bit there always a cancer build aroud. We had several situations like this in the past like magdk vamps or destro ulti train.

    From all sets introduced, only vicious death and earthgore are a problem (vicious+prox.det was introduced to counter zerglings, but had this side effect)

    Unable to split between premade and pugs queue remains BG main problem.

    Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General

    If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language
  • Valykc
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    Agreed with every single thing you said
  • BaylorCorvette
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    I stay out of BGs for many of the same reasons you mentioned.

    I am very happy with the rapids nerf, as a small group leader we all have to have our own snare removal and when we zerg bust it is frustrating when there is a dedicated person in the ball group that just spams rapids for the entire enemy group. So in the CURRENT meta I welcome this change.

    I am enjoying Cyrodiil currently but the single largest issue I am most frustrated about is the stuck in combat bug. This NEEDS to get fixed.
    Supreme Leader Corvette - StamSorc
    Founder of Dominion Special Forces
    YouTube - ESO & Automotive Racing
    DC Zerg Busting
  • Vapirko
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    I stay out of BGs for many of the same reasons you mentioned.

    I am very happy with the rapids nerf, as a small group leader we all have to have our own snare removal and when we zerg bust it is frustrating when there is a dedicated person in the ball group that just spams rapids for the entire enemy group. So in the CURRENT meta I welcome this change.

    I am enjoying Cyrodiil currently but the single largest issue I am most frustrated about is the stuck in combat bug. This NEEDS to get fixed.

    Yep I’m not even sure how that didn’t get into the patch notes, unless they’ve got it coming before then which would be great.
  • casparian
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    ZOS looks at the numbers of what most people are using and how most people are playing, and tries to introduce sets that support those play styles. They introduce sets primarily for the sake of selling DLCs, not balance. They care about the game being just balanced enough that PVP populations don’t fall below whatever target number they’ve decided is desirable, but beyond that, game balance isn’t how they make their decisions. From their numbers-first perspective, Vapirko, you’re an outlier trying to play the game in a niche way. And ZOS doesn’t have the resources or imagination to devote to niche playstyles.

    Maybe Rob will change that in the future, but for the last few years that has just been the way it is.

    And if ZOS were a developer worth our time as gamers, they would be in this thread talking to us.
    Edited by casparian on January 23, 2019 3:18PM
    7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.
  • ezio45
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    ya i agree with op, tank meta really sucks right now. I think zos isnt doing much this patch because they are working on planning out combat balances future. Hopefully they are and thats not just talk.
  • Beardimus
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    Alot to read but agree on increase in tether tanks in BG
    Xbox One | EU | EP
    Beardimus : VR16 Dunmer MagSorc [RIP MagDW 2015-2018]
    Emperor of Sotha Sil 02-2018 & Sheogorath 05-2019
    1st Emperor of Ravenwatch
    Alts - - for the Lolz
    Archimus : Bosmer Thief / Archer / Werewolf
    Orcimus : Fat drunk Orc battlefield 1st aider
    Scalimus - Argonian Sorc Healer / Pet master

    Fighting small scale with : The SAXON Guild
    Fighting with [PvP] : The Undaunted Wolves
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    Xbox One | NA | EP
    Bëardimus : L43 Dunmer Magsorc / BG
    Heals-With-Pets : VR16 Argonian Sorc PvP / BG Healer
    Nordimus : VR16 Stamsorc
    Beardimus le 13iem : L30 Dunmer Magsorc Icereach
  • Lylith
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    Defilted wrote: »
    Everything was faster until the call for speed nerfs. Now we are here in the slow meta.

    and getting slower every patch. :/

  • Calboy
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    I LOVE the snare era. Watching stamina monkeys zip around with speeds buffs was such a terrible time for pvp. Let's get rid of major expedition once and for all I say.
  • Galarthor
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    Defilted wrote: »
    Everything was faster until the call for speed nerfs. Now we are here in the slow meta.

    Maybe for stamina builds. Those speed nerfs were warranted. Unfortunately, ZOS has failed so far to address the snare/root insanity that has been plaguing PvP for years now. But I am glad to see that stam builds finally are sitting in the same boat as magicka builds and will thus no longer defend this crap and instead support getting away from this perma-snaring and perma-rooting.
  • barshemm
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    Calboy wrote: »
    I LOVE the snare era. Watching stamina monkeys zip around with speeds buffs was such a terrible time for pvp. Let's get rid of major expedition once and for all I say.

    I'm down with that if we can also get rid of snares.
  • Ranger209
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    Solariken wrote: »
    Agreed, it's totally out of hand. I was fine with the mobility nerfs overall, but there needed to be nerfs to mobility debuffing to complement.

    It's bad at max level, but it's AWFUL in lowbie bg's. People just blob up and spam aoe snares and immobilizes and there is no getting out of it.

    yes, they have lowered the ceiling but haven't raised the floor
  • Vapirko
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Defilted wrote: »
    Everything was faster until the call for speed nerfs. Now we are here in the slow meta.

    Maybe for stamina builds. Those speed nerfs were warranted. Unfortunately, ZOS has failed so far to address the snare/root insanity that has been plaguing PvP for years now. But I am glad to see that stam builds finally are sitting in the same boat as magicka builds and will thus no longer defend this crap and instead support getting away from this perma-snaring and perma-rooting.

    Yeah, no ones saying that speed didn’t need to be balanced. But we got hit twice when they not only nerfed speed pots, and snare immunity and sources of major expedition from class skills, but then they also introduce permafrost and time stop. It’s like a double or triple nerf. In true ZOS fashion they go completely from one side to the other. I’m not sure what “crap” you feel I’m defending. Getttig away from the perma snare/root/tank meta is exactly what I’m after. Aside from shuffle need a small cost reduction or immunity boost, everything else is fine.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Some paragraphs would really help me read this...

    Cant say I see a specific issue besides pugs sometimes being useless. Or, pretty much always useless.
    A certain degree of BS will always exist in BGs. As long as those things dont go completely over the top or have like half the player based playing it (a la Stealth Archers) then its not a large issue. Just a general luck of the draw like always with a random queue system.

    I mean... MMR ranking could actually work, that would help.
    EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
    NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade
  • Vapirko
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    Some paragraphs would really help me read this...

    Cant say I see a specific issue besides pugs sometimes being useless. Or, pretty much always useless.
    A certain degree of BS will always exist in BGs. As long as those things dont go completely over the top or have like half the player based playing it (a la Stealth Archers) then its not a large issue. Just a general luck of the draw like always with a random queue system.

    I mean... MMR ranking could actually work, that would help.

    Sorry about that, I got a bit ranty. Im not so much commenting on the issue of pugs, thats fine. I don't mind getting stuck with new players. Sometimes you can even carry them to a win and they get super excited because they always lose and they actually have fun for once.

    I was more pointing towards the prevalence of this play style. And I get it, most PvPers are going to go with whatever is easiest. Maybe they don't care, or don't want to spend the time getting better and thats up to them. So to a large extent this is ZOS' doing. ZOS has presented a certain, clearly simple and powerful, over arching direction of PvP combat and players are just feeding into it. I think a lot of us that still try to play well rounded builds, who want to play medium and try for high pressure fights, are people who have been around for some years.
  • Vapirko
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    casparian wrote: »
    ZOS looks at the numbers of what most people are using and how most people are playing, and tries to introduce sets that support those play styles. They introduce sets primarily for the sake of selling DLCs, not balance. They care about the game being just balanced enough that PVP populations don’t fall below whatever target number they’ve decided is desirable, but beyond that, game balance isn’t how they make their decisions. From their numbers-first perspective, Vapirko, you’re an outlier trying to play the game in a niche way. And ZOS doesn’t have the resources or imagination to devote to niche playstyles.

    Maybe Rob will change that in the future, but for the last few years that has just been the way it is.

    And if ZOS were a developer worth our time as gamers, they would be in this thread talking to us.

    Agreed, I know that the way I like to play is more of a fringe style. Hell even a lot of great players, much better than myself, have abandoned playing solo or small scale for groups! Thats okay. But people who want groups, or who don't want to take the time to reach a higher skill level, will always have the advantage of numbers. A tanky build is only going to prolong a 1v1 death it won't stop it most of the time. So why push PvP in this direction? Why continually cut down legit and honest ways of being good at this game? There are no more broken builds like there used to be back in the day when we had near infinite sustain. Lots of abilities hit really hard with no effort. It is tough as hell to fight out numbered right now. People are always going to ask for nerfs when they lose, I run a really basic 5m/2h ravager and draugr build, and people rage so hard saying my health is so high at 25k after they realize Im not wearing anything fancy. We're just dangerously close to a place where skill isn't going to matter. Theres not point in being good at a game if you can't even utilize that skill because the ceiling is so low that theres no where to go. Not only are players in here asking for nerfs of everything (EVEN TEMPLARS lmao) but ZOS is also moving in that direction. I just want to do everything I can right now, with a new combat lead, with the new class rep program to try and convince ZOS to stop with this. And Im hoping Elsweyr starts to reflect the fact that a lot of people are sick of the direction PvP has been going in.
    Edited by Vapirko on January 24, 2019 2:13AM
  • Strider__Roshin
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    Yeah heavy armor is still overtuned. It plagues Cyrodiil and battlegrounds. And as others have stated PvP is very unenjoyable when you're 70%+ snared all the time.
  • Vapirko
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    Daus wrote: »
    Yeah heavy armor is still overtuned. It plagues Cyrodiil and battlegrounds. And as others have stated PvP is very unenjoyable when you're 70%+ snared all the time.

    I would like to be careful with this. I don't think that heavy armor is really overtuned at this point. I just think that medium (and to some lesser extent light because they've got range but its still not perfect), needs to have more options to actually play to its strengths which should be mobility. I've 1v1'd plenty of heavy armor users in medium and they both have their advantages. For example shuffle reduces jabs damage if Im fighting a templar, it reduces sub assault, it reduces Leap and DBoS, noxious breath, spin to win etc. And you can still build to a decent resist level in medium and have damage. And what I've found is that heavy armor users will run out of resources faster most of the time it's just a matter of playing smart. If you want to play a lumbering juggernaut type build that should be possible (I do it on my stam DK although it's far inferior to my medium templar imo), but medium should have the option of running circles around a build like that.

    The real issue is that with the option of building tanky (which should absolutely remain an option), ZOS has also introduced the skills and sets to affect the outcome of combat far too heavily to the extent that a lot of people would rather just play a tank group and slowly lumber around Cyrodiil taking keeps even if it takes them a long time. And those builds shouldn't be able to lock down medium and light users to the point where there is really no counterplay because you're just getting snared and CC'd constantly.
  • Wuuffyy
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    Where have you been?
    Wuuffyy,
    WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
    ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
    -DM for questions
  • Pevey
    Pevey
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    barshemm wrote: »
    Calboy wrote: »
    I LOVE the snare era. Watching stamina monkeys zip around with speeds buffs was such a terrible time for pvp. Let's get rid of major expedition once and for all I say.

    I'm down with that if we can also get rid of snares.

    I will say once again, all this PVP whining will result in a light attack versus light attack meta. Just take all the skills away. Will you be happy then?

    If ZOS is trying to please the PVPers, it is a losing proposition because the game will never be balanced in the minds of some complainers until the game is completely stripped of everything remotely interesting.

  • Vapirko
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    Pevey wrote: »
    barshemm wrote: »
    Calboy wrote: »
    I LOVE the snare era. Watching stamina monkeys zip around with speeds buffs was such a terrible time for pvp. Let's get rid of major expedition once and for all I say.

    I'm down with that if we can also get rid of snares.

    I will say once again, all this PVP whining will result in a light attack versus light attack meta. Just take all the skills away. Will you be happy then?

    If ZOS is trying to please the PVPers, it is a losing proposition because the game will never be balanced in the minds of some complainers until the game is completely stripped of everything remotely interesting.

    Yeah lol, balancing snares will make everyone start LA lmao.
  • Kadoin
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    I agree...I know they want to sell DLC and chapters, but some of these sets are getting out of hand. The power should remain in the player and their build choices with sets, proc or not, only adding to it. Instead in PvP, sets ARE the power and the class is an afterthought with the exception of two class combinations.

    Sets that can consistently damage more than skills, sets that can heal more than skills, sets that can reduce damage more than skills, 2pc sets that solely decide a drawn out fight (Valkyn, Zaan, etc.)...

    Wasn't this exactly why sets stopped being able to crit? Yet we have sets that just do more non-crit damage/healing instead and approach the level or exceed that of the sets we complained about in One Tamriel...

    What exactly was accomplished, and what is being accomplished like this?
  • jcm2606
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    It extends past just balance and mobility into their general treatment of PVP, though you're completely right. The bigger issue I have with PVP is how unstable the game has become, to the point where I have to fight the game just to get my skills to go off, and how flawed the BG match making system is. I heard a day or two ago that it seems like they've introduced a cap for MMR, which only goes to show how MMR just isn't working -- when you have to put a cap on a ranked match making system, something has gone wrong.

    Frankly, with the game how it currently is, I don't give a damn if the game is balanced in the slightest. Balance doesn't mean anything if the game is barely functioning at its roots. Zenimax should prioritise reworking that BG queue to actually do its job, or, if it can't no matter what they do, get rid of it. Zenimax should prioritise having a stable and functional game, so I don't have to worry if the game is going to actually cast that heal or that ultimate.
  • Mojomonkeyman
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    Surprisingly enough, most of the popular stam players complaining now had no problem wearing tremorscale all day long or using heroic slash for years as main spammable. The hypocrisy in this uproar is strong, those very same people that keep on preaching now about how disgusting all those snares are didnt care at all when they snared all those slow magicka classes to death while having a free pass via FM et al themselves, for years.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • RouDeR
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    They need to Introduce Major and Minor snare system.
    Major = 30% Minor = 15%
    So for example A Stamsorc with Major + Minor expedition 40% Move speed bonus is affected by Major + Minor snare 45% will move at 95% at his base movement speed. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
    Currently you can be slowed so much that you cant even fart.
  • DKMaestro
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    I play BG - sometimes it is enjoyable - but really only when everyone queued are individuals and you have to learn to stick together and work as a team.
    As soon as you encounter an organized group, you see scores like 510-90-30. Optimized, organized groups are the bigger problem in BG in general.
    They will snare you, knock you down, and burst you down, before you even get a chance to stand back up. I have been guilty of getting killed 5-6 times in a row, before I could even get a skill off, and then literally just stand back up in my spawn zone and wait until the match is over, because if I leave, I have to wait another 20 minutes in order to be allowed back in.

    Snares, knock down, perma roots are really just effing annoying. Even if my magsorc had the ability to move around in that swamp, I will be out of magicka in 10 seconds, trying to just defend constantly.

    With individuals cueing, it is not as big of a problem, as the snare-tanks are rarely in an optimized group, so you actually stand a chance. Just make a BG for solo queuing and one for group queuing.
    Old man playing. Have a life, a job and only one character, which is grumpy (all the time)
  • Waffennacht
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    I saw nothing in the PTS that even slows down this tanky AF meta
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • StarOfElyon
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    I recently switched to one heavy chest plate (purple) and one medium pants (gold). I had more resistance than before but lost some magicka regen. Even if I had more, I was being drained quickly. We were solos up against at least one organized group. Maybe the other team was organized too but they weren't as strong. Somehow we kept it close but it wasn't fun at all. It was annoying. Watch the ridiculousness begin at around 00:53.
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