Time Stop - It's Time To Stop

Syhae · January 2019

Time Stop and it's morph's have been over performing since it's creation in Summerset. The issue of time stop has been exacerbated following the mobility changes in Murkmire which removed it's main counter, snare removal and speed in order to avoid the time stop.

Here is why the skill is overperforming and desperately in need of balancing:
-Area of Effect stun
-Oppressive Snare that get's stronger throughout the duration of the skill
-Cheap skill cost when taking into consideration everything the skill can do.
-Unblockable, Undodgeable CC

Simply examining what the skill does for it's cost is a tell-tale sign on why the ability is overperforming. It is too "stat" dense. The skill is relatively cheap to use (4k magicka without taking into consideration any cost reduction passives) while also being one of 2 AoE stun abilities that is not tied into an ultimate, the other AoE CC being Nightblade Fear, which only effects *2 ENEMIES* at the cost of 3.7k magicka. Can you see the difference between the balanced stun and the unbalanced stun? Very similar skill cost...

Time stop does not stop there however, as the ability still surprisingly brings even more to the table with it's snare which increases in effectiveness the closer to the stun component.

Now we have a cheap, AoE stun (Remember, only 2 non Ultimate AoE CC's exist in the game) that also has a massive snare tied to the skill while also being an unblockable and undodgeable stun.

Much more can be said on the effectiveness of the ability, however the bottom line remains the same: The ability is too stacked in it's current state and needs to be rebalanced following the speed and snare immunity changes in Murkmire and the upcoming Wrathstone patch.

There are a few ways to go about rebalancing this skill, a few of my favorites that I've heard from various players are:
-Remove the snare that is attached to the stun. This would open up counterplay to the ability by being able to avoid it if you are quick enough to react.
-Reduce the amount of players able to be stunned to 3 players, 3 random players are given the snare attached to the skill to facilitate the process of stunning them
-Increase the cost of the skill by a hefty amount, between 7.5k-10k magicka. This would ensure that the skill is less likely to be spammed as it would seriously punish the caster.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

TheRealSniker · January 2019

I agree with the massive cost increase, most of time I just have a 70k HP magblade spamming time stop on me and im just wondering how the hell he can sustain it.
I think 10k Magicka would be ok for such a strong stun that could decide an entire fight.

ccfeeling · January 2019

Those suggestion will be a terrible idea for non DK / Warden tanks in PVE

- higher cost
- lesser CC amount

zyk · January 2019

Maybe ZOS would stop implementing abilities like this if competitive ESO players didn't spend all of their time trying to stomp random casuals and actually made an effort to fight each other.

DKsUnite · January 2019

zyk wrote: »

Maybe ZOS would stop implementing abilities like this if competitive ESO players didn't spend all of their time trying to stomp random casuals and actually made an effort to fight each other.

It is hardly their fault that when they take a resource or go looking for fights that it's giant pug ball groups and not competitive other players.... And why would casuals fighting other players make ZOS think about implementing a skill like this? Because they can't stun them or something?

The snare on timestop needs to go or at least have the super strong snare apply only for the last 0.5s or something. The skill either needs a large increase in cost (in line with the alliance war skills) or it needs a target cap of like 2-3.

Syhae · January 2019

zyk wrote: »

Maybe ZOS would stop implementing abilities like this if competitive ESO players didn't spend all of their time trying to stomp random casuals and actually made an effort to fight each other.

I don't think this is a good reason for this skill to remain in it's current state

2 reasons -

1 - There is a GvG scene on PC/NA for coordinated guilds and better players to coordinate group vs. group fights. This ranges from 6v6, 3v3, 2v2, and I believe there is also a GvG discord for large scale guilds to coordinate 12v12-16v16 fights. So that nullifies the point that competent/competitive players do not make an effort to challenge themselves in fair fights among themselves.

2 - The entire thread.

zyk · January 2019

DKsUnite wrote: »

It is hardly our fault that when we take a resource or go looking for fights that it's giant pug ball groups and not competitive other players....

Whatever dude. I'm pretty sure you and your friends find the fights you're looking for.

If competitive-minded ESO players had the will to fight each other, maybe ZOS would stop implementing even-the-odds sets and abilities.

Syhae wrote: »

I don't think this is a good reason for this skill to remain in it's current state

I'm not defending the ability. I think it's terrible. What I'm saying is that ZOS wants to make life easier for it's random casuals in Cyrodiil because this game has a culture of random casual stomping. Anyone who tries to deny it must be completely delusional because it's so obvious.

1 - There is a GvG scene on PC/NA for coordinated guilds and better players to coordinate group vs. group fights. This ranges from 6v6, 3v3, 2v2, and I believe there is also a GvG discord for large scale guilds to coordinate 12v12-16v16 fights. So that nullifies the point that competent/competitive players do not make an effort to challenge themselves in fair fights among themselves.

I'm well aware of the meme that is ESO's GvG scene. I respect the hell out if the guys who have worked so hard to get it going, only for the rest of the community to continue to disappoint.

Competitive-minded PVP players in this game treat PVP like PVE, but instead of fighting mobs, they look for casual randoms or pugs to farm. Those casuals give feedback to ZOS and ZOS gives them tools to fight back which completely suck.

NirnStorm · January 2019

Absolutely agree, @Syhae.
In all forms of outnumbered PvP it's clear to see how broken this skill is.

When you are 1 player being chased down by 5, and one of them can simply spam this ability at you and keep you slowed consistently allowing the rest to catch up with you no matter of your speed, then also hard CCing you even through roll dodge etc... It's so very frustrating.

Not to mention in group play when your 6man is chased by 40 and all you can see ahead of you is a field of 8 time stops and have no where to go to.

When you see a spammable ability being used so commonly and realize you have 0 counterplay to it, you can tell that ability needs to change.

DKsUnite · January 2019

@zyk even the odds sets and abilities? Are you kidding? Outnumbering people 5 to 1 isn't enough evening of the odds?

zyk · January 2019

DKsUnite wrote: »

even the odds sets and abilities? Are you kidding? Outnumbering people 5 to 1 isn't enough evening of the odds?

Fighting outnumbered is overrated. Casuals are significantly outclassed by competitive-minded gamers in every game. I'm not impressed when the top tier of any game stomps on casuals -- especially as relentlessly as they do in this one.

Muskrap · January 2019

zyk wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

even the odds sets and abilities? Are you kidding? Outnumbering people 5 to 1 isn't enough evening of the odds?

Fighting outnumbered is overrated. Casuals are significantly outclassed by competitive-minded gamers in every game. I'm not impressed when the top tier of any game stomps on casuals -- especially as relentlessly as they do in this one.

If fighting outnumbered is overrated then you must be top tier and have evolved past it.

Rohaus · January 2019

Time stop is my number 1 hated skill in ESO. I like the idea of making it crazy expensive but I almost would prefer they fix the 1 second delay before you can actually break the CC.

LeifErickson · January 2019

When the only counter to this skill is mist form on a lot of specs, that means there is something wrong. I totally agree with op and would like to see at the very least the cost reduction but would also like to be able to break the cc right away instead of waiting like you have to do with this skill.

@zyk Did you get farmed at a resource or something?

NBrookus · January 2019

But stun on templar shards was OP!

Another option is to make time stop self-cast. Works for PVE, works for tanks (who likely can't sustain a super high cost skill)... doesn't work for chronomancers casting the skill over and over at no risk from range from behind a pack of friendlies.

Curragraigue · January 2019

Yep agree an over performing skill at too low a cost. My preference would be for the removal of the snare altogether.

Quantum_V · January 2019

This is a skill that we've talked about before in meetings. If you purely put it into perspective and think about the skill's effectiveness/cost ratio, this skill is pretty insane:

It's an AOE stun that has a stun radius larger than ultimates like leap, it technically has the strongest snare in the game - considering how the skill works; and moreover, it's one of those stuns that falls under the category of glitchy/impossible to CC break, like scatter shot. Plus we're not even talking about morphed versions yet, that negates all healing to whoever was unfortunate to be stunned.

This skill is unhealthy to PvP, it slows down the pace of fights beyond anything reasonable, making the combat reflect some of the most dull and frustrating facets of its nature.

DeadlyRecluse · January 2019

Honestly, at this point I'm not even sure I care whether or not it's overpowered--it's super annoying. Real annoying. That's enough reason, imo, to adjust it.

Remove the snare and it's probably fine, but it's visually garish, too. I hate the big blue bubbles everywhere during big fights--giant visual effects like that should be reserved for ults, imo.

iCaliban · January 2019

I dont use this in pvp, I personally think its fine. Its one nice tool that allows you to drop really tough teams in bgs

Sandman929 · January 2019

Quantum_V wrote: »

This is a skill that we've talked about before in meetings. If you purely put it into perspective and think about the skill's effectiveness/cost ratio, this skill is pretty insane:

It's an AOE stun that has a stun radius larger than ultimates like leap, it technically has the strongest snare in the game - considering how the skill works; and moreover, it's one of those stuns that falls under the category of glitchy/impossible to CC break, like scatter shot. Plus we're not even talking about morphed versions yet, that negates all healing to whoever was unfortunate to be stunned.

This skill is unhealthy to PvP, it slows down the pace of fights beyond anything reasonable, making the combat reflect some of the most dull and frustrating facets of its nature.

Is it possible we could expect a change to time stop in the next year to a year and a half then?

Gralor · January 2019

Quantum_V wrote: »

This is a skill that we've talked about before in meetings. If you purely put it into perspective and think about the skill's effectiveness/cost ratio, this skill is pretty insane:

It's an AOE stun that has a stun radius larger than ultimates like leap, it technically has the strongest snare in the game - considering how the skill works; and moreover, it's one of those stuns that falls under the category of glitchy/impossible to CC break, like scatter shot. Plus we're not even talking about morphed versions yet, that negates all healing to whoever was unfortunate to be stunned.

This skill is unhealthy to PvP, it slows down the pace of fights beyond anything reasonable, making the combat reflect some of the most dull and frustrating facets of its nature.

For a skill that is hardly an issue in PVP, I can see why Time Stop is bothering a MagDK enthusiast the most though.

One might say, combat already is a “dull and frustrating” experience when faced with a DK spamming Talons and Petrify – which are both instantly applicable by the way. But I guess you’re right and Time Stop is “insane”. The good thing is, now that every class can be insane, where all on the same level at least.

One might also think that some players are biased towards their own favorite class. But for a Class Representative that wouldn’t be appropriate, so that can’t be the case here either.

Xvorg · January 2019

I have never slotted it becausue of that, but on the other hand, as @zyk pointed out, PvP is full of kids who want to win at any cost using the least skill possible.

I mean, is there any skill in using blood craze + spin to win? Take away both skills and half the population in Cyro has no idea on how to kill an enemy.

Time stop is similar to that, skills done for lazy people.

Playnice · January 2019

Time Stop is expensive to cast, one of the morphs is a cast time, and you can dodge roll out of it easily if you spend one iota of energy to spec some kind of stamina into your build. Stop crying that you keep getting stuck in Time Stop and put a freaking stam recovery enchant on your jewelry.

LeifErickson · January 2019

Playnice wrote: »

Time Stop is expensive to cast, one of the morphs is a cast time, and you can dodge roll out of it easily if you spend one iota of energy to spec some kind of stamina into your build. Stop crying that you keep getting stuck in Time Stop and put a freaking stam recovery enchant on your jewelry.

Wanna know what happens when you roll out of it? They cast it on you again. Wanna know which one has a stacking cost? Roll dodge. If people just roll out of it it will be recast and the rollers will run out of stam before the casters run out of mag.

Quantum_V · January 2019

ESO_Blash wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

This is a skill that we've talked about before in meetings. If you purely put it into perspective and think about the skill's effectiveness/cost ratio, this skill is pretty insane:

It's an AOE stun that has a stun radius larger than ultimates like leap, it technically has the strongest snare in the game - considering how the skill works; and moreover, it's one of those stuns that falls under the category of glitchy/impossible to CC break, like scatter shot. Plus we're not even talking about morphed versions yet, that negates all healing to whoever was unfortunate to be stunned.

This skill is unhealthy to PvP, it slows down the pace of fights beyond anything reasonable, making the combat reflect some of the most dull and frustrating facets of its nature.

For a skill that is hardly an issue in PVP, I can see why Time Stop is bothering a MagDK enthusiast the most though.

One might say, combat already is a “dull and frustrating” experience when faced with a DK spamming Talons and Petrify – which are both instantly applicable by the way. But I guess you’re right and Time Stop is “insane”. The good thing is, now that every class can be insane, where all on the same level at least.

One might also think that some players are biased towards their own favorite class. But for a Class Representative that wouldn’t be appropriate, so that can’t be the case here either.

I must be missing something here.

Establishing a correlation between me being a mDK main and finding Time Stop to be a disease to this game's PvP scenario out of this post is just argumenatively flawed. I tried to be as clear as possible on my explanation and argumentation behind my main points, and somehow, out of that, you deduced it has all to do with mDKs, while non of the points previously mentioned even establish relationship with my main class?

Moreover, as you can see in this forum post, the issue that Time Stop spawns is WAY beyond any class - if you observe and pay enough attention, there are people from different background and that main different classes orbiting the same conclusion, thus - as proven in this discussion - it is an issue that extends mDK, and any other class for that matter, as shown by the several arguments provided along this thread.

So honestly, if you're in this thread spitting out argumentum ad hominem, polluting an important discussion with lack of objectivism and lack of proper argumentation that attacks points that were proviously established or new lines of thought, you might as well just stop it here or find a way to increment to the debate without attacking pre-established ideas that make no sense whatsoever and are poorly foundated.

Playnice · January 2019

LeifErickson wrote: »

Playnice wrote: »

Time Stop is expensive to cast, one of the morphs is a cast time, and you can dodge roll out of it easily if you spend one iota of energy to spec some kind of stamina into your build. Stop crying that you keep getting stuck in Time Stop and put a freaking stam recovery enchant on your jewelry.

Wanna know what happens when you roll out of it? They cast it on you again. Wanna know which one has a stacking cost? Roll dodge. If people just roll out of it it will be recast and the rollers will run out of stam before the casters run out of mag.

Then they just spent 1/5th of their total magicka to get off a stun. Tell me how that was a good decision?

FrankonPC · January 2019

I can spam the non channeled morph on my stam nb with tripots. Not permanently, but enough to stop people from entering a choke in a keep. Any sort of mag class with decent recovery can spam it at no real cost. increasing the cost or putting a cost increase on the ability makes sense to me.

NBrookus · January 2019

ESO_Blash wrote: »

For a skill that is hardly an issue in PVP, I can see why Time Stop is bothering a MagDK enthusiast the most though.

Do they not use this on EU? Because it's *everywhere* on NA. I'm not just talking breach defense and chokes, but carpetbombing of entire areas open field.

Let's not pretend this isn't very close to sorc negate without the downside of having to 1) be a sorc and 2) build up ultimate

Syhae · January 2019

Playnice wrote: »

Time Stop is expensive to cast, one of the morphs is a cast time, and you can dodge roll out of it easily if you spend one iota of energy to spec some kind of stamina into your build. Stop crying that you keep getting stuck in Time Stop and put a freaking stam recovery enchant on your jewelry.

It isn't expensive to cast at all. It's the same cost of fear (3.7k magicka) while doing much more than fear can do.
The skill is too dense in effects for it's cost. Need's to be rebalanced so it is either much more expensive than it is or does not do as much as it does.

GallantGuardian · January 2019

I dont pvp.... this is my only “talons/ ice shards” style move for my templar tank... until templar tanks get something comparable i dont want to lose my only ability to stop adds from moving while i gather more adds.. so no i dont want this ability touched...

Again i dont pvp... and literally all the changes that have been made to my character have been directly pvp oriented ... and im tired of it “spear shard is over performing lets ner” “blinding flashes is over performing lets remove it from the game entirely”

You can roll out of it... I believe you can even interrupt it while they are casting it... figure out how to do that... dont nerf ..

Youre suggestions make this ability useless... especially for a tank who doesnt have access to similar abilities...

Champion points isnt the cancer to class skills.... pvp is

Solariken · January 2019

I think the best place to start with this skill specifically is to make the snare not affect targets who already have CC immunity.

Syhae · January 2019

GallantGuardian wrote: »

I dont pvp.... this is my only “talons/ ice shards” style move for my templar tank... until templar tanks get something comparable i dont want to lose my only ability to stop adds from moving while i gather more adds.. so no i dont want this ability touched...

Again i dont pvp... and literally all the changes that have been made to my character have been directly pvp oriented ... and im tired of it “spear shard is over performing lets ner” “blinding flashes is over performing lets remove it from the game entirely”

You can roll out of it... I believe you can even interrupt it while they are casting it... figure out how to do that... dont nerf ..

Youre suggestions make this ability useless... especially for a tank who doesnt have access to similar abilities...

Champion points isnt the cancer to class skills.... pvp is

Game balance should not be designed around a small minority who are purposefully hurting themselves in their class/build choice.

A lot of the changes happen with PvP balance in mind because PvP /has/ to be balanced in order for it to perform enjoyably.

While I understand that this skill being changed can hurt "non-meta" PvE tanks that chose to tank outside of the traditional (and most effective) DK/Warden tanks, the skill should not be allowed to remain in its current state with those players in mind because of how stat dense and detrimental the skill can be in PvP. The skills application must be viewed respectively with PvE and PvP in mind, the fact that the best in slot tanking classes that are present in every score push in PvE content do not need this ability is a tell-tale sign that this skill being nerfed would not be detrimental to PvE.