Early thought: Racial role diversity =/= Racial balance

CleymenZero · January 2019

Hot topic lately and certainly going to be until launch of DLC but Liko's newest video had me thinking:

In changing racial passives they said they wanted to make races more flexible (in either magicka or stam DPS for example) but did they mention they wanted to balance things?

Again, it is early in PTS cycle but he demonstrates how strong Khajit magicka DPS is and I imagine it is going to look the same or similar for stam. Race choice may now be more influenced by the class (whether it has an execute or not) but it is for now pretty interesting (and disappointing) to see these changes.

I'm disapointed though. I understand ZoS is here to make money but the whole race-change token situation is very frustrating and I can't shake off the words "cash-grab" from my mind.

We have Dark Elf that seems to be leaning towards hybrid/stam builds now but when Dark Elf was chosen by players, ALL serious end-game players used this race for magicka DPS.

For magicka DPS in general, most if not all used either Dark Elf, High Elf and to a lesser degree Breton. If Khajit is to become the best magicka DPS, all min-maxers will need to race change to stay very competitive.

What I would think is more fair is to at least make current best races EQUIVALENT to the new meta races. That way, yea my next magNecro will be Khajit and my next stamNecro might be Orc, who knows? All I know is won't need to buy a crap ton of Race-change tokens.

Again, if it is taking this direction, WE NEED to voice our discontent and make them understand that this is a no-go otherwise, we will establish a trend that will make them continuously similar moves that I can't qualify in any other way than a cash-grab.

This is my opinion, feel free to share yours.

p.s. I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong (I hope I'm wrong).

TheBonesXXX · January 2019

Or they finally have a team competent enough to make racials flavourful and not game breaking.

zaria · January 2019

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Or they finally have a team competent enough to make racials flavourful and not game breaking.

This, interesting how the Dunmer and Khajiit do the same but passives are very different.
Think Khajiit and Dunmer players tend to select race first then playstyle.
Argonians too but they are very flexible already.
So yes it was an massive demand for this.

Was an test shown by some there all the magic builds was inside 1K dps with top around 51K. Argonians came in on 49K
Altmer and Breton on top.

Stamina was a bit more spread out as in 1.3K damage and weaker as in not breaking 50K
In short race dps is very balanced now.

Dunmer magDK was an one tricks pony who was not only vulnerable to race changes but also class and game mechanic changes.

And Dunmer is an good stamina build now. So yes then they nerf magic in the future, you can go stamina.
That is the real strength of the Khajiit and Dunmer passives, not 400 more on an 50K parse.

dovakiin5574 · January 2019

Why don't you calm down and look at this here post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

Races are FAR more balanced now than ever.

zaria · January 2019

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

Why don't you calm down and look at this here post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

Races are FAR more balanced now than ever.

That was the post I referred to

Oreyn_Bearclaw · January 2019

Well, I for one am glad Liko is on the case, haha. I understand what they are doing for the most part. By generally changing percent based stats to flat value stats, it makes balance easier down the road. This is consistent with their recent stance on CP, as most are percent based.

It feels like after the recent changes at ZOS, the main priority is to go back to the drawing board and figure how to set themselves up to be in a better position to balance i the future, which I can certainly get behind.

To me, the two outliers from the recent race/balance changes are Khajiit and Dunmer.

Khajiit: I like to believe the Khajiit wont go live as the BIS mag DPS race. I think they will pull back on the Spell/weapon crit buff, but who knows. It is ZOS afterall. I will point out that they do seem to have done a pretty good job balancing the other magic races with eachother, at least based on Liko's data. Also, the 2k difference that Liko Notices with Khajiit is going to be much less with players that arent pulling 60k ST. I dont think it will take a lot of tweaking to bring Khajiit in line, assuming they chose to do it.

Dunmer: This one just bugs me. Mostly because I am morrowind fanboy and have always played them in all the ES titles. When ESO launched, I felt like a dunmer DK just made so much sense, because you know, fire. I have 3 Dunmers currently, 2 NBs and a DK. While I understand that lore suggest them to be "spellswords" that just doesnt play in ESO. They have been a meta Mag DPS race forever, and I feel like it is hard to make a compelling argument for them over Altmer or Breton if mag DPS is your goal. I feel like this will perhaps be the most abandoned class when people start race changing next patch.

Somewhere · January 2019

I've always played a magicka khajiit and so I love the changes, but I'm genuinely surprised they not only gave it the 8% spell critical, but additional magicka and magicka recovery. Khajiit was a good stamina race before, but its ability to actually perform in a stamina dps role were almost exclusively carried by that 8% critical rate. Giving it magicka critical rate, and then some additional bonuses, and I'm not surprised that it out performed the other magicka races by a small margin.

Loyheta · January 2019

Am I the only one that thinks racial identity is more important than balance?

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

Loyheta wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks racial identity is more important than balance?

Khajiit main, yes?

CleymenZero · January 2019

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

Why don't you calm down and look at this here post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown#latest

Races are FAR more balanced now than ever.

Well, thanks for the reference although I will take Liko's analysis into account as well. He is one of the best players in the game therefore I take his analysis. On top of that, his analysis is made raid buffs which take into account some of the Dps scaling you can see in trials.

My point is more specifically directed towards the fact that if the meta is changed in a way that forces those who want the absolute best choices to insure that they are most optimized (perfect "rotation or not") they are in creating a shift in the meta that forces us to spend money.

I know it is at most 1.5k difference but in end game you'll consider switching. I know some prefer RP and immersion but the RP'ers don't care anyways about the numbers so they wouldn't be concerned.

I didn't care when I had to spend transmutes when dual wield meta switched from nirn/infused to inf/inf (although nirn/infused has been very good/better on some classes), it was transmutes and didn't affect all my characters but when money is involved, it's a more sensitive matter to me.

Actually, with the changes to enchants, the dual wield meta will probably shift back to nirn/inf and I don't care I'll transmute.

Also my point is that they can make them practically equivalent so instead of making the current best race a little bit weaker than the new best, why not make them actually equal. Those that want to switch to be more lore-friendly will switch and the ones interested in numbers would not need to spend anything.

CleymenZero · January 2019

Loyheta wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks racial identity is more important than balance?

What I wrote to answer another user:
Also my point is that they can make them practically equivalent so instead of making the current best race a little bit weaker than the new best, why not make them actually equal. Those that want to switch to be more lore-friendly will switch and the ones interested in numbers would not need to spend anything.

mxxo · January 2019

zaria · January 2019

Somewhere wrote: »

I've always played a magicka khajiit and so I love the changes, but I'm genuinely surprised they not only gave it the 8% spell critical, but additional magicka and magicka recovery. Khajiit was a good stamina race before, but its ability to actually perform in a stamina dps role were almost exclusively carried by that 8% critical rate. Giving it magicka critical rate, and then some additional bonuses, and I'm not surprised that it out performed the other magicka races by a small margin.

All other magic races got buffed outside the Dunmer magdk one shot pony.
so we ended up on an sweet spot. just below meta but can go both ways.

CleymenZero · January 2019

Also important to consider, the difference in Dps would be even greater in raid.

Warhorn for example will further increase Dps on khajit that it would on High Elf because of major force. A 1-1.5k difference on the dummy could turn into 3-5k on the raid boss.

Meta chasers (people who chose to play in an optimized way based on developer rulesets, mechanics or whatever influences the game) WILL race change and that in itself is messed up. You're selling me another chapter and now you're telling me I'll have to pay to race-change? If it was 1k crown, I would mind but not as much but at 3k a pop, that's insane. I have 14 toons and chose their race based on the meta. Changing the meta would require me to pay more to play the game in an optimized way and I have to say that this discourages me from committing more in this game. I would spend those crowns elsewhere, but this is an expense created by the developer.

shaielzafine · January 2019

CleymenZero wrote: »

Also important to consider, the difference in Dps would be even greater in raid.

Warhorn for example will further increase Dps on khajit that it would on High Elf because of major force. A 1-1.5k difference on the dummy could turn into 3-5k on the raid boss.

Meta chasers (people who chose to play in an optimized way based on developer rulesets, mechanics or whatever influences the game) WILL race change and that in itself is messed up. You're selling me another chapter and now you're telling me I'll have to pay to race-change? If it was 1k crown, I would mind but not as much but at 3k a pop, that's insane. I have 14 toons and chose their race based on the meta. Changing the meta would require me to pay more to play the game in an optimized way and I have to say that this discourages me from committing more in this game. I would spend those crowns elsewhere, but this is an expense created by the developer.

Yop, I still have thousands of crowns but do not intend to spend any of them on an "expense created by the developer" like you said. They aren't fixing a problem, they're shuffling things around and buffing Khajiits right before the Elsweyr expansion. I can get the marketing with the lower priced khajiit outfits and all that but lol when I saw the race change tokens marked down on the store as I logged on. We already have subs, we already have eso plus exclusive deals, we have "limited time" offers, we have RNG lootbox crates, we already pay for expansions & dlcs & addons like warden class & extra stuff like banker and merchant. But really, putting the race change tokens up on a sale as they themselves create the need for it by changing racial passives? Lol.

CleymenZero · January 2019

shaielzafine wrote: »

CleymenZero wrote: »

Also important to consider, the difference in Dps would be even greater in raid.

Warhorn for example will further increase Dps on khajit that it would on High Elf because of major force. A 1-1.5k difference on the dummy could turn into 3-5k on the raid boss.

Meta chasers (people who chose to play in an optimized way based on developer rulesets, mechanics or whatever influences the game) WILL race change and that in itself is messed up. You're selling me another chapter and now you're telling me I'll have to pay to race-change? If it was 1k crown, I would mind but not as much but at 3k a pop, that's insane. I have 14 toons and chose their race based on the meta. Changing the meta would require me to pay more to play the game in an optimized way and I have to say that this discourages me from committing more in this game. I would spend those crowns elsewhere, but this is an expense created by the developer.

Yop, I still have thousands of crowns but do not intend to spend any of them on an "expense created by the developer" like you said. They aren't fixing a problem, they're shuffling things around and buffing Khajiits right before the Elsweyr expansion. I can get the marketing with the lower priced khajiit outfits and all that but lol when I saw the race change tokens marked down on the store as I logged on. We already have subs, we already have eso plus exclusive deals, we have "limited time" offers, we have RNG lootbox crates, we already pay for expansions & dlcs & addons like warden class & extra stuff like banker and merchant. But really, putting the race change tokens up on a sale as they themselves create the need for it by changing racial passives? Lol.

That's the issue I'm trying to raise. At least make them EQUIVALENT. 4k DPS in raid (presumed yes but not too far-fetched based on what we know) is a reason to switch a race. It's an expense created by the developer. If there was a way to grind a token or a truly reduced price (16%? They were 50% off last year!) I would have less of an issue.

It is a bad move. I wish we could do something about it and I don't know what could turn the tide but it has to be the nth time I question why I play this game... I for one haven't purchased Elsweyr yet....

Silver_Strider · January 2019

Loyheta wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks racial identity is more important than balance?

No because even if Racials got completely removed, their Lore would remain and their identities would be built from that rather than some meager buffs.