A Tank’s view of proposed race changes.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2019

Khajiit seem to be in running for tanking as well with the changed focus on equal stat distribution and recovery for those stats. Maybe not for the meta for trials but it seems like a good viable option for as tank going forward. Same with the dark elf.

IMO the update did nothing but add more races as viable tank build and slight only really left 2 builds for magika DPS and 2 builds for Stamina DPS.

As for healers it seems breton will be the clear winner.

As for the passive change I'm sure they will monitor its impact to the game and do further changes if needed.

Inig0 · January 2019

ZoS's intention going into the racial passive changes was to close the gap between the different races that are meant to do the same thing and make the decision to be one race have less of an opportunity cost for the player. While in some of the dps race there is variety in what you can build for (full damage or some damage and some sustain) the tank races are completely weighted to Nord.

Currently on live the two races i would consider to be the closest and the difference between them is purely preference is nord and imperial. With the changes they made the gap between the two races has become much larger to the point where any other choice is just grossly missing out on very strong tanking passives.

Personally i dont think things like crit chance ulti gen resources from potions or things that have weird proc conditions should be a racial passive. At least if theyre there they should be the defining feature of the race and it should be have a minimal contribution to combat.

All that being said people will certainly look at the nord passives and imperial passives and point at the ult gen for the reason why nord comes on top. While it certainly is a huge contributor to that its not completely what sets it aside.

Comparing the passives we get

imp
2k hp
2k stam
15% on direct damage to heal for 1750 and 5% reduce to block and bash

nord
1k hp
1.5k stam
3960 spell/ physical resist
5 ult every 10s. (30 ult / minute)

Setting the 1k health and 500 stam difference aside because stats are so easy to get and a non issue with a difference that small for tanking we are left with the comparing two things.

5% on direct damage to heal for 1750 and 5% reduce to block and bash
vs
3960 spell/ physical resist
5 ult every 10s. (30 ult / minute)

Are you kidding me??? There is no competition and this comparison alone covers what i think is the biggest travesty of this whole racial passive fiasco: they are contradicting themselves and are not achieving what they meant to.

Being able to not have to spec into physical or spell resist will more than compensate for the stat loss. Even without the ult gen passive nord would still be way better than imp.

From the Dev post for the racial changes
"To summarize, we decided to focus more on racial balance this update because racial choice was one of the larger outliers to our core mantra of the game - freedom. We wanted to expand the horizon for choice and present players with a self-reflecting question of “What is my playstyle or ideal build?”, providing options to help reach that individual answer. Now, instead of having a single race that focuses almost exclusively on a specific playstyle, you can pick based on a personal level."

From this statement the devs made clear what they wanted to do with this update; to me they failed and need to readjust their changes or come up with a system that allows us to select the passives we want.

Tremors · January 2019

Probably just worth seeing where it goes over the next 4 weeks. Nord is fine to be left as is, but imperial needs a little more love I think. Argonian healing probably should be reverted too.

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

I still don't understand what's great about imperial. Slightly more health? Slightly less block cost? one pierce armor more stamina? how is that comparable to ulti generation and freedom to use non-resistance helmets like bloodspawn and earthgore without losing resistance cap or great argonian sustain?
Honestly saying i'll place breton over imperial now, awesome magicka sustain allows to spam utility abilities, which is more useful to group then 1.2k extra HP which will be decisive really rare.
15% healing on using direct ability is laughable. I have knight-errant on my overland setup, even those 1.25k per hit is not that much.

Arciris · January 2019

I can also totally see pure min/max top leaderboards groups pushing for 2 Nord tanks and 2 Nord healers to reach maximum possible uptime on Major Force.
This will be more difficult to pull on healers, but really good ones may find a way (maybe Spell Symertry comeback)

I really think the Ulti gen passive needs to be replaced with something else for the sake of diversity, maybe just keep the 6% damage reduction could stay instead of this.

Inig0 · January 2019

Tremors wrote: »

Probably just worth seeing where it goes over the next 4 weeks. Nord is fine to be left as is, but imperial needs a little more love I think. Argonian healing probably should be reverted too.

Right now is the time to express to zos exactly how we feel not necessarily with the changes they made but with what we want for them and how we want to be affected by them. It already might be too late for them to make any big changes that might be a better solution to the problem theyre trying to solve.

satanio · January 2019

Arciris wrote: »

I can also totally see pure min/max top leaderboards groups pushing for 2 Nord tanks and 2 Nord healers to reach maximum possible uptime on Major Force.
This will be more difficult to pull on healers, but really good ones may find a way (maybe Spell Symertry comeback)

In that case that would be reasonable.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

how is that comparable to ulti generation and freedom to use non-resistance helmets like bloodspawn and earthgore without losing resistance cap or great argonian sustain?

I've always though that I wear bloodspawn because of ultigen, and lord warden because of group buff and not because I'm in grave need of resistances. But I get your point.

Tremors · January 2019

Inig0 wrote: »

Tremors wrote: »

Probably just worth seeing where it goes over the next 4 weeks. Nord is fine to be left as is, but imperial needs a little more love I think. Argonian healing probably should be reverted too.

Right now is the time to express to zos exactly how we feel not necessarily with the changes they made but with what we want for them and how we want to be affected by them. It already might be too late for them to make any big changes that might be a better solution to the problem theyre trying to solve.

Well yeah I get that. Which is why I mentioned my thoughts on the changes in the latter of my comment, however people losing their mind is pointless. There's a difference between feedback and being irrational (my original comment was not in relation to your previous post).

IronWooshu · January 2019

Vildebill wrote: »

No, Imperial was best, and is still good. Argonian is good because of that crutch passive, which for some strange reason wasn't nerfed as much as the healing passive. Will probably still be just as good. Nords will be interesting though, but I think it's being a little over hyped since resistance cap isn't hard to reach before the change, and it's not a huge chunk of extra ultimate. But still interesting. Guess we will see

You don't think 4k resistances is a big deal? While you have to still wear Lord Warden a Nord tank doesn't, we also dont need as much CP spent to get the cap which allows us to use more sets and variety.

satanio · January 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

No, Imperial was best, and is still good. Argonian is good because of that crutch passive, which for some strange reason wasn't nerfed as much as the healing passive. Will probably still be just as good. Nords will be interesting though, but I think it's being a little over hyped since resistance cap isn't hard to reach before the change, and it's not a huge chunk of extra ultimate. But still interesting. Guess we will see

You don't think 4k resistances is a big deal? While you have to still wear Lord Warden a Nord tank doesn't, we also dont need as much CP spent to get the cap which allows us to use more sets and variety.

How would you spend your 2 new flexible pieces of gear? Would you wear asylum snb or any other weapon set? Or would you take on some fancy healing monster set (earthgore, troll king, bogdan)?
It may open up possibilities but all the excitement fades once you stumble upon the limited choices we've got here. Maybe Vykosa is the real winner here?

The longer I think about it, the better it seems. But once your group needs Lord Warden or you're just good with Bloodspawn for ultigen, those resistences become obsolete.

On the other hand, with those resistances nord tanks can calmly go 5/1/1... hmmm

IronWooshu · January 2019

satanio wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

No, Imperial was best, and is still good. Argonian is good because of that crutch passive, which for some strange reason wasn't nerfed as much as the healing passive. Will probably still be just as good. Nords will be interesting though, but I think it's being a little over hyped since resistance cap isn't hard to reach before the change, and it's not a huge chunk of extra ultimate. But still interesting. Guess we will see

You don't think 4k resistances is a big deal? While you have to still wear Lord Warden a Nord tank doesn't, we also dont need as much CP spent to get the cap which allows us to use more sets and variety.

How would you spend your 2 new flexible pieces of gear? Would you wear asylum snb or any other weapon set? Or would you take on some fancy healing monster set (earthgore, troll king, bogdan)?
It may open up possibilities but all the excitement fades once you stumble upon the limited choices we've got here. Maybe Vykosa is the real winner here?

The longer I think about it, the better it seems. But once your group needs Lord Warden or you're just good with Bloodspawn for ultigen, those resistences become obsolete.

On the other hand, with those resistances nord tanks can calmly go 5/1/1... hmmm

Yeah I am doing a lot of thinking and I was kinda leaning on Engine Guardian for sustain or going Blood Spawn for an ultimate gen build on my Nord Warden tank. Vykosa is also a good substitute

I could also go off the meta and use Spawn of Mephala to keep adds locked down while helping do damage.

Like you said you could go 5-1-1

Lots of opportunity is given with Nords racial passive for tanks.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

OP, you forgot about Redguards.
With new passive they will get 1K stamina every 5 seconds (as long as they deal direct dmg). So you can basiaclly like throw a caltrops on a group of mobs and watch your stamina go up. With the right setup it may be even possible to perma block.
Short comparison:
Argonians: 3.6K stamina every 45 seconds (when you drink a potion every 45 seconds).
Redguard: during 45 seconds they will get 9 ticks so a whopping 9K stamina ! ! !

Caltrops is not direct damage, it is a dot.

Vildebill · January 2019

IronWooshu wrote: »

Vildebill wrote: »

No, Imperial was best, and is still good. Argonian is good because of that crutch passive, which for some strange reason wasn't nerfed as much as the healing passive. Will probably still be just as good. Nords will be interesting though, but I think it's being a little over hyped since resistance cap isn't hard to reach before the change, and it's not a huge chunk of extra ultimate. But still interesting. Guess we will see

You don't think 4k resistances is a big deal? While you have to still wear Lord Warden a Nord tank doesn't, we also dont need as much CP spent to get the cap which allows us to use more sets and variety.

Not really, everyone's at the cap or close enough as it is now without that passive, and still skip non-contributing sets like Chudan. And I don't understand what you mean by having to wear Lord Warden, that set is used to give your group resistances mainly, not yourself.

satanio · January 2019

So, how does these tank races feel on PTS?

lokulin · January 2019

I feel like all the talk here is implicitly about DK tanks. How do these changes pan out for sorc tanks or other classes?

Dielmeanathal · January 2019

IMHO I think that these changes do affect all tanks, not only the allmighty, god-like and invincible DKs

Xarc · January 2019

Nord

+1000 stam
+1000 health
+ When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate each 10 sec
+ cold resist
+ 3960 phys and spell resist

Imperial:

+2000 stam
+2000 health
When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750
Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

Zos said "upcoming racial balance change".
Where is the balance ??
+3960 is way too much, combined to the ability to gain some ultimates, nords are better we're all aggree.

Dielmeanathal · January 2019

Breton anyone?

satanio · January 2019

@Olupajmibanan just tried the Imperial Red Diamond passive. The block cost is applied in a same way as Sturdy trait.

Formula is as follows
Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress) *(1-New Red Diamond)) * (1-Defensive Posture)

So 2 shieldplay enchants, 23% in shadow ward, 4 Sturdy items now makes your block cost = 502
With new passive it makes it to 477. So Imperial gains 100 stamina per 1 sec at best scenario.

@ZOS_Gilliam
Please, I suggest to change the Red Diamond block cost % reduction to flat value of 203 block cost instead, basically make it like Shield-Play enchantment. It would make it far significant, I mean cmon, Imperial really needs some love.

edited: typos, @Lightspeedflashb14_ESO was right, block cost is every 0,25 s.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

So Imperial gains 25 stamina per 0,5 sec at best scenario

block cost is every .25 seconds, so you save 100 stam every second.

satanio · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So Imperial gains 25 stamina per 0,5 sec at best scenario

block cost is every .25 seconds, so you save 100 stam every second.

Edited previous post.

satanio · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

So Imperial gains 25 stamina per 0,5 sec at best scenario

block cost is every .25 seconds, so you save 100 stam every second.

Anyways, I think that those 100 stam for tank player or 344 stam for non tank player, and we're talking about best case scenario, every second is underwhelming in comparison to redguard (+-215stam/s), argonian(80stam&mag/s) or even breton(+-100mag/s) resource regenerating passives.

Vancali · March 2019

BejaProphet wrote: »

They will still be good tanks, particularly for anybody who struggles with resources but the new balance will encourage talented tanks to look Elsweyr.

I just came here to say that this pun will never get old. 😁