Silver_Strider wrote: »Yay Nords
RIP Orcs
Whatever Imperial/Argonain
/Thread
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
lol in the time it took me to write up my post you went into way more detail than I did on what the Nord's resistance bonuses actually mean: more flexibility in getting to the cap.BejaProphet wrote: »It is worth noting that we are being given this ultimate generation hand in hand with the best tank passives of any race. If they simply removed the passive entirely and gave us nothing at all in return Nords would arguably still be the best tanks.
Why would I say that? Imperials get 2000 health verses the nords 1000. And they get 500 more stamina, how can Nord compete with that? After all, a tank can already hit resistance cap without the nords armor.
Yes they can and I do. But now I can do something else instead, here’s my plan.
1. I now get to shift CP out of physical resistance and boost both my hardy and ele defender from 9% to 12%. After running the math that makes me tankier than the 1k extra health would. Nord wins in hardest to kill.
2. I ran 6 sturdy 2 reinforced to hit resistance caps. Now I can run 8 sturdy. Imperials get 5% reduced block cost? I just got 8%. Nord wins again.
With the extra ease in getting to mitigation cap, Nords can use that to buy things better than imperial passives. So they get 500 more stamina than Nords, Nord wins in every other way.....and then the extra ultimate generation is factored in.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
BejaProphet wrote: »Just considering the four most traditional race choices.
Orc Did you just decide this isn’t a tank race? Because it’s not anymore.
Argonian. Got a nerf. Potion nerf probably fair but nobody likes a nerf. Biggest hit was with the healing changes. An argonian tank’s self heals we’re just nerfed from a 10% boost to a 4% boost. Combined with the other nerf this just ended the era of argonian tank meta. They will still be good tanks, particularly for anybody who struggles with resources but the new balance will encourage talented tanks to look Elsweyr.
Imperial About the same, second best before changes and second best after. Will be a strong tank. Block passive is trash though, please change.
Nord Welcome to the new Meta. If you thought there was pressure to be an argonian then you haven’t seen anything yet. Any serious raid guild will 100% insist their tanks be nords. You just gave a solid tank race the extra the ability to boost the parse of a 12 man team. Game over, Nord will be the trial tank meta like nothing we have ever seen if this goes live. But I look forward to not being a lizard so I’m ok with it.
BejaProphet wrote: »3. Imagine this scenario: tank A plays an argonian and never runs out of resources. He rocks it. Good job. Tank B plays a Nord never runs out of resources; he rocks, and in addition to that he is able to throw out war horns a little more quickly, a little more continuously than tank A.
Who wins?
It doesn’t matter which of these two races are more powerful at actually tanking. It doesn’t matter if argonian or imperials or whatever is equipped better for tanking or not. In a trial score run (meta) setting, a tank will be expected to overcome any other deficiency with the skill and deliver the increased group buffs. That’s how the trial meta works. That’s why tanks wear Alkosh.
It’s not about which race is the better rank. If this goes live then Nords have something that is simply in another category than any other race in the game. It’s no longer stat verses stat. It’s Nord ultimate gen verses every other race bringing NOTHING in that category.
100% Warhorn uptime is not the real goal - as it is relatively easy to achieve in a coordinated group.
The real goal is Major Force uptime.
And one warhorn 9 secs sooner means 9 secs more Major Force uptime for each Warhorn, and that is why the new Nord passive will boosts DPS by quite a lot during a trial fight, thus making Nord tanks absolutely meta, with no other competition.
They could even not have any other real tanking passive (but they do), they would still be Meta because of that particular passive.
It would be up to player skill to make up for the lack of other useful passives for tanking, just like they do with Alkosh, a trash set for tanking except for the 5 piece bonus.
100% Warhorn uptime is not the real goal - as it is relatively easy to achieve in a coordinated group.
The real goal is Major Force uptime.
And one warhorn 9 secs sooner means 9 secs more Major Force uptime for each Warhorn, and that is why the new Nord passive will boosts DPS by quite a lot during a trial fight, thus making Nord tanks absolutely meta, with no other competition.
They could even not have any other real tanking passive (but they do), they would still be Meta because of that particular passive.
It would be up to player skill to make up for the lack of other useful passives for tanking, just like they do with Alkosh, a trash set for tanking except for the 5 piece bonus.
usmcjdking wrote: »They all seem fine and within reason to me.
I had no issues playing my Argonians in Thieves Guild, and I will have no problem playing them this following patch.100% Warhorn uptime is not the real goal - as it is relatively easy to achieve in a coordinated group.
The real goal is Major Force uptime.
And one warhorn 9 secs sooner means 9 secs more Major Force uptime for each Warhorn, and that is why the new Nord passive will boosts DPS by quite a lot during a trial fight, thus making Nord tanks absolutely meta, with no other competition.
They could even not have any other real tanking passive (but they do), they would still be Meta because of that particular passive.
It would be up to player skill to make up for the lack of other useful passives for tanking, just like they do with Alkosh, a trash set for tanking except for the 5 piece bonus.
9 seconds sooner =/= 9 seconds more on Major Force uptime. Nord passive is about a 15% increase on standard tank ultgen, which translates to 15% faster horns which translates to roughly 15% greater WH uptime provided by that specific player which isn't negligible by itself, is fairly negligible amongst a 4 horn rotation where you're looking at about a 37 second uptime on major force in any given 4 man horn rotation vice a 36 second one.
This is also a zero-sum problem as well. In order for the passive to be beneficial, it needs to provide nearly an entire Warhorn worth of value else total warhorn usage and total maj. force uptime remains the same. Any instance where you would hold your ult until optimal usage further devalues the passive. It's useful but it's not that amazing in PVE.
This is totally true.BejaProphet wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »They all seem fine and within reason to me.
I had no issues playing my Argonians in Thieves Guild, and I will have no problem playing them this following patch.100% Warhorn uptime is not the real goal - as it is relatively easy to achieve in a coordinated group.
The real goal is Major Force uptime.
And one warhorn 9 secs sooner means 9 secs more Major Force uptime for each Warhorn, and that is why the new Nord passive will boosts DPS by quite a lot during a trial fight, thus making Nord tanks absolutely meta, with no other competition.
They could even not have any other real tanking passive (but they do), they would still be Meta because of that particular passive.
It would be up to player skill to make up for the lack of other useful passives for tanking, just like they do with Alkosh, a trash set for tanking except for the 5 piece bonus.
9 seconds sooner =/= 9 seconds more on Major Force uptime. Nord passive is about a 15% increase on standard tank ultgen, which translates to 15% faster horns which translates to roughly 15% greater WH uptime provided by that specific player which isn't negligible by itself, is fairly negligible amongst a 4 horn rotation where you're looking at about a 37 second uptime on major force in any given 4 man horn rotation vice a 36 second one.
This is also a zero-sum problem as well. In order for the passive to be beneficial, it needs to provide nearly an entire Warhorn worth of value else total warhorn usage and total maj. force uptime remains the same. Any instance where you would hold your ult until optimal usage further devalues the passive. It's useful but it's not that amazing in PVE.
Correct. It’s not that powerful. It’s just without any competition in the other races.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
BejaProphet wrote: »Just considering the four most traditional race choices.
Orc Did you just decide this isn’t a tank race? Because it’s not anymore.
Argonian. Got a nerf. Potion nerf probably fair but nobody likes a nerf. Biggest hit was with the healing changes. An argonian tank’s self heals we’re just nerfed from a 10% boost to a 4% boost. Combined with the other nerf this just ended the era of argonian tank meta. They will still be good tanks, particularly for anybody who struggles with resources but the new balance will encourage talented tanks to look Elsweyr.
Imperial About the same, second best before changes and second best after. Will be a strong tank. Block passive is trash though, please change.
Nord Welcome to the new Meta. If you thought there was pressure to be an argonian then you haven’t seen anything yet. Any serious raid guild will 100% insist their tanks be nords. You just gave a solid tank race the extra the ability to boost the parse of a 12 man team. Game over, Nord will be the trial tank meta like nothing we have ever seen if this goes live. But I look forward to not being a lizard so I’m ok with it.
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »OP, you forgot about Redguards.
With new passive they will get 1K stamina every 5 seconds (as long as they deal direct dmg). So you can basiaclly like throw a caltrops on a group of mobs and watch your stamina go up. With the right setup it may be even possible to perma block.
Short comparison:
Argonians: 3.6K stamina every 45 seconds (when you drink a potion every 45 seconds).
Redguard: during 45 seconds they will get 9 ticks so a whopping 9K stamina ! ! !