[Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for U21] Gilliam, THIS IS MY FEEDBACK!

joaaocaampos · January 2019

@ZOS_Gilliam

Changes are good after all. But it doesn't satisfy everyone. Some minor fixes need to be made:

High Elf

Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Magicka Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an Magicka ability with a cast or channel time.

Wood Elf

Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% 10% Movement Speed for 3 4 seconds.

Breton

Spell Resistance: Gain 2310 2640 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.

Dark Elf

Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250 2000.
Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Burning status effect.
Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Khajiit

Robustness: Increases your Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Nord

Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.

Orc

Craftsman: Increases experience gain with the Heavy Armor Skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting Inspiration gained and reduces your gathering time by 10%.
Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500 1000.

High Elves gaining Stamina? WHAT? Class Ability? No, Magicka Ability!
Wood Elves mobility is too high.
Why 2640 Resistance? 2640 = 4%, while 2310 = 3,5. Accurate numbers, please!
Dark Elves lose Weapon Damage, but gain Stamina. Much better!

Any feedback on this is welcome.

Vermethys · January 2019

While I agree with your point of view on many of the races, I think Wood Elf is particularly not okay -- what do they have for PvE other than 2000 stamina and 258 stamina recovery? Everything else is completely useless in PvE and very situationally useful in PvP. Class ability cost reduction would be a fair change to make them compete with other races (mostly Redguard) in PvE. They could drop the movement speed and detection passives for all I care.

Dark Elf is another story -- I personally like that they added weapon damage to them, since in previous games they made excellent mages and warriors (unlike High Elves, for example). But I think they should drop max health for something more unique, like 129 spell damage to fire and poison abilities. Something that would make them a better choice than Altmer or Orcs in certain scenarios.

susmitds · January 2019

vermillion2077 wrote: »

While I agree with your point of view on many of the races, I think Wood Elf is particularly not okay -- what do they have for PvE other than 2000 stamina and 258 stamina recovery? Everything else is completely useless in PvE and very situationally useful in PvP. Class ability cost reduction would be a fair change to make them compete with other races (mostly Redguard) in PvE. They could drop the movement speed and detection passives for all I care.

Dark Elf is another story -- I personally like that they added weapon damage to them, since in previous games they made excellent mages and warriors (unlike High Elves, for example). But I think they should drop max health for something more unique, like 129 spell damage to fire and poison abilities. Something that would make them a better choice than Altmer or Orcs in certain scenarios.

@vermillion2077
Bosmer actually has equal regen as Redguard this time. With multipliers, that 254 regen becomes more like 425 regen, something that takes over 2.1k base regen on live. On PvE DPS builds, this is huge(the only reason Redguard beats Khajiit).

idk · January 2019

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Changes are good after all. But it doesn't satisfy everyone. Some minor fixes need to be made.

And it never will satisfy everyone. Also, it is probably a good idea to actually justify your suggestions. Otherwise it just falls off into the noise of everyone else complaining because it does not make them happy.

Rake · January 2019

Dunmer need bit more damage.
Altmer have both solid sustain and good damage
Breton have great sustain.
By logic, Dunmer should have best damage since worst sustain.

SodanTok · January 2019

vermillion2077 wrote: »

While I agree with your point of view on many of the races, I think Wood Elf is particularly not okay -- what do they have for PvE other than 2000 stamina and 258 stamina recovery? Everything else is completely useless in PvE and very situationally useful in PvP. Class ability cost reduction would be a fair change to make them compete with other races (mostly Redguard) in PvE. They could drop the movement speed and detection passives for all I care.

Dark Elf is another story -- I personally like that they added weapon damage to them, since in previous games they made excellent mages and warriors (unlike High Elves, for example). But I think they should drop max health for something more unique, like 129 spell damage to fire and poison abilities. Something that would make them a better choice than Altmer or Orcs in certain scenarios.

You havent played vCR, vAS, vMA, vMoL, vBRB or hell, any dungeon, if you think movement speed is useless in pve.current version of bosmer is already on par in sustain with redguard if you arent using weapon spammables so not like they need much more incombat advantages.

susmitds · January 2019

Rake wrote: »

Dunmer need bit more damage.
Altmer have both solid sustain and good damage
Breton have great sustain.
By logic, Dunmer should have best damage since worst sustain.

Dunmer already got highest raw damage on stamina side. Further increasing dunmer magicka damage will make them the highest raw damage on both sides as they have mirror bonusses.

Yamenstein · January 2019

vermillion2077 wrote: »

While I agree with your point of view on many of the races, I think Wood Elf is particularly not okay -- what do they have for PvE other than 2000 stamina and 258 stamina recovery? Everything else is completely useless in PvE and very situationally useful in PvP. Class ability cost reduction would be a fair change to make them compete with other races (mostly Redguard) in PvE. They could drop the movement speed and detection passives for all I care.

Dark Elf is another story -- I personally like that they added weapon damage to them, since in previous games they made excellent mages and warriors (unlike High Elves, for example). But I think they should drop max health for something more unique, like 129 spell damage to fire and poison abilities. Something that would make them a better choice than Altmer or Orcs in certain scenarios.

From what I've read bosmer are actually doing well based on the proposed changes. So can you please show your analysis, or whatever analysis, on how it is actually bad ?

To OP - I like most of the changes. I actually like the stamina additions to the high elves and the dunmer. Makes it so more races can play more builds.

Morgul667 · January 2019

I like the new polyvalence

Vermethys · January 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

vermillion2077 wrote: »

While I agree with your point of view on many of the races, I think Wood Elf is particularly not okay -- what do they have for PvE other than 2000 stamina and 258 stamina recovery? Everything else is completely useless in PvE and very situationally useful in PvP. Class ability cost reduction would be a fair change to make them compete with other races (mostly Redguard) in PvE. They could drop the movement speed and detection passives for all I care.

Dark Elf is another story -- I personally like that they added weapon damage to them, since in previous games they made excellent mages and warriors (unlike High Elves, for example). But I think they should drop max health for something more unique, like 129 spell damage to fire and poison abilities. Something that would make them a better choice than Altmer or Orcs in certain scenarios.

You havent played vCR, vAS, vMA, vMoL, vBRB or hell, any dungeon, if you think movement speed is useless in pve.current version of bosmer is already on par in sustain with redguard if you arent using weapon spammables so not like they need much more incombat advantages.

@SodanTok I have completed all except vAS -- most of which as a Wood Elf NB. I'm not pessimistic about the changes, just seemed like a curious set of alterations. You are right though, I can now see Wood Elf being superior on classes with high recovery modifiers and class spammable like NB.

@Yamenstein Well, it was only the first impression I got upon reading the proposed changes. I didn't take into consideration that the extra recovery is affected by % modifiers and that they now have the same stamina pool as Redguard (previously 6% vs 10%). I can see how the movement speed is useful as well, but I don't think it needs a nerf like OP suggests.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2019

Argonian:

Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
Restore 4060 Health, 3800 Magicka, and 3800 Stamina when you drink a potion.

Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% Healing done and received by 4%.

Or:

Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% Healing done and received by 3%.

ChunkyCat · January 2019

Definitely needed you to make your own thread about it. Thank you for the hard work.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

susmitds wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Dunmer need bit more damage.
Altmer have both solid sustain and good damage
Breton have great sustain.
By logic, Dunmer should have best damage since worst sustain.

Dunmer already got highest raw damage on stamina side. Further increasing dunmer magicka damage will make them the highest raw damage on both sides as they have mirror bonusses.

on paper they have the highest dmg, if you go from the spreadsheet thats passed arround yes.

but there are so many variables that this is just on paper, it cannot be applied to fights so easily.

Furthermore, jeah highest dmg, but no sustain. You simply cannot sustain a Staminabuild on Dunmer, unless you scrifice DMG in terms of Jewelyrenchants or food, or sets.
The DMG you sacrifice will cost you the Nr1. Spot as DMG dealing class, because its not sustainable.

BlueRaven · January 2019

Bosmer needs to have stealth put back. The detect is useless in PvE and the roll is very PvP orientated.
Having only one race that is good in stealth is poor design. And the race fantasy of Bosmer is that they are good at stealth. There was no need to remove it.

zemhox · January 2019

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JobooAGS · January 2019

zemhox wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

@vermillion2077
Bosmer actually has equal regen as Redguard this time. With multipliers, that 254 regen becomes more like 425 regen, something that takes over 2.1k base regen on live. On PvE DPS builds, this is huge(the only reason Redguard beats Khajiit).

@susmitds
could you elaborate on that?
what mutlipliers are you talking about that are race specific? they removed all percentage mutlipliers did they not, meaning bosmer are left with 258 stam recovery whereas redguards get an 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities and restore 950 stam on direct damage every 5 seconds.
my knowledge of this might be too shallow but i would think redguard has better sustain than bosmer

That 258 regen gets boosted by % multipliers such as med armor, cp and endurance. Redguard sustain passives no longer get boosted by this

SodanTok · January 2019

zemhox wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

vermillion2077
Bosmer actually has equal regen as Redguard this time. With multipliers, that 254 regen becomes more like 425 regen, something that takes over 2.1k base regen on live. On PvE DPS builds, this is huge(the only reason Redguard beats Khajiit).

susmitds
could you elaborate on that?
what mutlipliers are you talking about that are race specific? they removed all percentage mutlipliers did they not, meaning bosmer are left with 258 stam recovery whereas redguards get an 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities and restore 950 stam on direct damage every 5 seconds.
my knowledge of this might be too shallow but i would think redguard has better sustain than bosmer

@zemhox
If your rotation consists of just endless hail, poison injection and one cast of rending slashes redguard saves/gains 244 stam/sec. To match that with 258 regen, bosmer needs 89% multiplier. With 7medium, 100 in mooncalf and potion you need just 26% from other sources (other passives). On top of it regen works no matter what, redguard sustain works only in combat where abilities are casted properly and constantly. Redguard will come slightly ahead (more so if you use ballista which gets reduced by 8% too) but the difference is basically insignificant (in this scenario) and the amount of sustain you get when you arent fighting (moving position etc) imo even outweighs it.

zemhox · January 2019

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Morgul667 · January 2019

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Definitely needed you to make your own thread about it. Thank you for the hard work.

This

Arciris · January 2019

The idea behind the changes is to allow all races to be more flexible in terms of roles.

The Altmer Spell Recharge passive is actually really good for people who chose High Elf to be a Tank or even a Stamina character.
Example: I have on an Alt account a High Elf who is a Stamplar - because I don't plan on having the best choices on an alt account, just fun. That passive will help with both her sustain and survival, while right now she has no useful racial passive whatsoever.
Of course Altmer is still not the best choice for Tank or Stamina DD but with these changes they are not completely gimped when playing outside of the box/meta.
And that is a good thing.

Dunmer is now a Stamina/Hybrid oriented race (top Stam DD along with Khajiit). Personally, I like it. I understand however how some people feel differently.

All races, with the exception of Altmer (only buffs) and Argonian (only nerfs) got nerfed in some aspects and buffed in others.
Overall, if we look at the whole picture - rather to a "one by one" approach, races are more balanced and interesting now that they have ever been.
Minor tweaks might be needed, but we will need to test stuff first.

Aliyavana · January 2019

if they nerf wood elf speed to 10 percent, then they need to up the duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds

Kadoin · January 2019

Here's my feedback to your proposed changes: no.

joaaocaampos · January 2019

Aliyavana wrote: »

if they nerf wood elf speed to 10 percent, then they need to up the duration from 3 seconds to 4 seconds

@Aliyavana Indeed! Hasty Retreat (Bow passive) also lasts 4 seconds. Edited with your suggestion!

joaaocaampos · January 2019

I've made some minor edits.

sneakymitchell · January 2019

@joaaocaampos
Did you not read the full post of @ZOS_Gilliam then?
He mentioned that the races could fill out on the opposite for it. If your high elf is supposed to be magic only then kiss all the other players who want to make a stam high elf.
So is the dark elf players.
Who want to play stam.
But hey if you want to the game to die down cause meta reasons be my guess.

sneakymitchell · January 2019

Rake wrote: »

Dunmer need bit more damage.
Altmer have both solid sustain and good damage
Breton have great sustain.
By logic, Dunmer should have best damage since worst sustain.

But dunmer got better resource stat compare to the two. But hey we talking elves with staff right?

sneakymitchell · January 2019

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Argonian:

Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina
Restore 4060 Health, 3800 Magicka, and 3800 Stamina when you drink a potion.

Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% Healing done and received by 4%.
Or:
Quick to Mend (Life Mender): Increases your Healing Done by 4% Healing done and received by 3%.

Back to square one with argonian issues. Still powerful on tanks with the coming patch just needed adjustment cause the resource gain is too powerful at the moment with combo of self healing by 10%.

Elusiin · January 2019

I don't agree. I wanna be able to choose my race without it impacting my ability to play different roles. So magicka OR STAMINA on High Elf should be a thing.

idk · January 2019

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Rake wrote: »

Dunmer need bit more damage.
Altmer have both solid sustain and good damage
Breton have great sustain.
By logic, Dunmer should have best damage since worst sustain.

But dunmer got better resource stat compare to the two. But hey we talking elves with staff right?

For top dps builds it is pretty irrelevant if it has slightly more resrouce stat when it is split between stam/mag and WD/SD.

And obviously they are talking magicka builds if discussing high elfs, brettons and Dunmers. That is a no brainer.

Dunmer is going from top damage for magicka classes to the trash heap. Useful for hybrids but that is not top damage.

Vapirko · January 2019

While I do agree with some of your suggestions, they’re definitely not going to make any changes before PTS. So, do feel free to jump on PTS and let us know how stats are affected and then make improvement threads. I will definitely be doing so for my Orc Stamplar as I know max Stam is going to be hit really hard likely making sets like hulking draugr a necessecity rather than more specialty.

joaaocaampos · January 2019

sneakymitchell wrote: »

@joaaocaampos
Did you not read the full post of @ZOS_Gilliam then?
He mentioned that the races could fill out on the opposite for it. If your high elf is supposed to be magic only then kiss all the other players who want to make a stam high elf.
So is the dark elf players.
Who want to play stam.
But hey if you want to the game to die down cause meta reasons be my guess.

DanteMR1995 wrote: »

I don't agree. I wanna be able to choose my race without it impacting my ability to play different roles. So magicka OR STAMINA on High Elf should be a thing.

It's all right!

If there are no changes with Spell Recharge (High Elf) or Dynamic/Ruination (Dark Elf), I understand. Hybrid thing!

But,

There are still other passives:

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Wood Elf
Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% 10% Movement Speed for 3 4 seconds.

Breton
Spell Resistance: Gain 2310 2640 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.

Dark Elf
Dynamic: Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250 1500.

Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Khajiit
Robustness: Increases your Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Nord
Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.

Orc
Craftsman: Increases experience gain with the Heavy Armor Skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting Inspiration gained and reduces your gathering time by 10%.

Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500 1000.