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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050

Thoughts about racechanges (17.1.19) - Possible solutions?

Schared
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To understand my perspective: Iam a pve raider, done with most of the content on healer,dd and tank (gh, ir on each, still working on my ttt). And a casual pvper - got the basics down but rarely spend more than 4 hours a week in bg´s and cyro.

While being always suspicious if zos releases mayor changes like a race-rebalance i found most of the points they made quite reasonable, yet ultimatly i believe their concept is going to flop.
While lots of their changes seem to follow the idea of pushing certain builds onto certain races they elimenate choices for proper raider. Dont get me wrong the choices have been limited before.
MagDD´s are usually High or Darkelves, StamDD´s basicly only redguards, Healers highelf, argonian or breton and tanks argonian or imperial. But i fear the rebalance is going to push certain choices even more.
I fear the darkelves will disappear as MagDD class leaving the highelves alone in that field. StamDD´s will remain as they are right now and it will probatly be the same for tanks. While for healers the highelf option will disappear.
For PvP a mayor complain was that argonians are literal gods on every imaginable build ... while their healing got reduced they gained new resistances and even though their "resourcesful" passive got nerfed i think it will still be widely regarded as the strongest pvp class.
Speaking of resistances - the dev team introduced absolute resistances to some races (dumner= burning, woodelf=poison, argonian=deseased, nord=chilled) - while that might look like a good idea on paper it will not matter in pve content.. and when it comes to pvp: While poisoned might be a huge deal, chilled and burning are no more than moderate. Argonians just got basicly another buff.

Long story short i do understand that they made lots of these choices not only based on the interest of 1 part of their community - yet they failed to adress mayor complaints, like "Woodelves are only viable for PvP" , "Redguards are the non+ultra stamina class", "Orcs passives make them incredebly mediacore".


Obviously just critizism is not constructive, so we came up with an idea - in basis: Morphable Racial Passives
In our opinion that would be perfectly lore friendly which is probatly a mayor concern of some dev´s - i get that imperials are supossed to be the rough-around-the-egdes heartland people - but i find it hard to believe that not a single one decided to live a life of knowlegde and wisdom. Similar ideas can be applied to all races.

Instead of just having ur passive u could now choose between a magika and stamina morph - similar to already existing abilities in the game.
For example: Conditioning (Imperial) : increases ur max stam by 4%, 7% and 10% - how about just the very same thing with magika.
Most races have abilities soly linked to 1 kind of build and that would enable players to run their builds in different directions.

Now this idea obviously struggles for 3 reasons:
1. Untranslateable Abilities: While the mayority of abilities has either a stam or mag component u could convert - lots of passives have very specific effects that are hard to translate: For example the argonians "Resourceful"- passive would be hard to move into something else - my ideas here so far would be a clear focus (restore more mag or more stam but not both) or an entirely new ability (for example stealth: sneaky lizards would kind of fit into the lore).

2. Balancing issues: While i regarded this idea as quite good - the most apparent issue is obviously balancing - because if we could just morph for example all redguard abilities into magika morphs we would just make redguards both the best sustaining magika and stamina class. So it would need some adjustments - if one would get paid for it one probatly would have time to balance that out ;)

3. Loss of individuality: I always loved the base difference between a argonian and an imperial tank - while having almost the same stats - my sustain on argonian was just surperior - while my overall damage on imperial was higher which was specialy apparent when i had to offtank. If you could morph all abilities it would lead to some kind of widely agreed on choice of perk for each class which would just crystalize in some new op classes in a reformed meta.

Thanks for bearing with me till here, hope you found my rambeling atleast mildly entertaining and have some ideas and opinion on your own!
Greets Schared
cleared AA once i know what iam doing
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    bosmer speed buff should be 4 seconds, not 3 seconds, so that it matches up with other speed buffs
  • zyk
    zyk
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    ZOS is really exposing themselves with these racial changes. For example, after the debacle caused by the introduction of the Swift trait which resulted in an overall mobility nerf, they give Bosmers an insane movement buff.

    How do you think that's going to play out in PVP, ZOS? Have you even considered it?

    I am very attached to my characters. I was careful to choose their races when I made them. Now I am being punished for that.

    These changes are too much.
  • Meesha1170
    Meesha1170
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    Where is it posted on the forums? I can’t find it.
  • KingKobra
    KingKobra
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    I'm just upset that they nerfed dunmer to the ground. No other reason to play it unless you switch to a hybrid. RIP all the dark elf mag DKs. :(
    PC-NA-AD
    Mag DK / Mag Den / Stam NB / Mag Sorc / Stam Sorc / Mag Plar (Healer) / Stam DK (Tank) / Mag NB
  • Silver_Strider
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    I was hoping that Resourceful on Argonians would be changed to be a Max Magic OR Max Stamina buff, depending on which was higher with the potion passive following suit to restore the greater resource, at the cost of the Tri-Stat effect being completely removed (or changed into a Bi-stat effect of Health+Main Resource). Instead, Argonian's are now just pure Healbot only since not only are we losing a lot of Health but also Healing Received and Poison Status Immunity, making Argonian Tanks less effective overall. I'm disappointed overall with these current suggestions since they don't exactly create any diversity at all and took a lot of options away.
    Argonian forever
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    KingKobra wrote: »
    I'm just upset that they nerfed dunmer to the ground. No other reason to play it unless you switch to a hybrid. RIP all the dark elf mag DKs. :(

    Problem is that hybrid exists only in experimental builds which do twice less damage then non-hybrid ones. To make this work they need to unify penetration and crit chance, which will never happen.
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
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    @KingKobra @MartiniDaniels

    I highly, highly suggest looking into @SkysOutThizeOut builds. I don't normally credit forum posters with props- but he's done an excellent job at creating a hybrid build. I may even start running it.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Sy1ph5
    Sy1ph5
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    But like my dunmer was a magsorc and now its "versatile" just heck off with that and give me as many race change tokens as I have characters.
  • Mayrael
    Mayrael
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    Hahahaha haha I'm laughing so hard. While era wanted nerf Argonians, but this is not how balance works lol, I was telling you how this will end:
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Pitiful whiners, you really think they will nerf Argonians leaving Altmer, Bretons or Redguards untouched? Facepalm... With a chair. The mighty nerf hammer is OTW and no one will be safe thanks to you.

    Say no to Toxic Casuals!
    I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.


    "Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge
  • oOMrSmileOo
    oOMrSmileOo
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    @Schared the immunity to diseased was there before, it just wasnt listed in the passiv. So they were at least not buffed.
    Raidlead of the german progression raiding group "Mind Control"
    Youtube Channel
    Tank, all Trials clear with HM, Immortal redeemer, Tick Tock, Gryphon Heart
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    @KingKobra @MartiniDaniels

    I highly, highly suggest looking into @SkysOutThizeOut builds. I don't normally credit forum posters with props- but he's done an excellent job at creating a hybrid build. I may even start running it.
    Ty for the video.
    I'm trying to create hybrid builds all the time.. no matter how you build you can't get over penetration and crit chance.. all the big damage in this game comes from critical strikes.. and there is no way to get at least 70% crit for both. So for PVE i closed this topic.
    For PVP i created very similar build, though from magicka weapon damage perspective (all jewelry - spell damage).. i.e. we initiate at some distance with moonhunter bar lightning HA and when it procs with poison (lightning HA deals 1.5 hits per second) so i swap to 2H bar with pelinal and use critical rush -> fossilize -> flame lashes -> execute. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't, build is under development still..
    But even from PVP look, changes to dunmer don't help at all. Hybrid is always pelinal, so no point to have both weapon damage and spell damage in racial passives. 1250 stamina and 1250 magicka is roughly the same what you get now.
    Edited by MartiniDaniels on January 17, 2019 6:28AM
  • mb10
    mb10
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    Absolutely awful.

    Legit better keeping them as they are or totally removing every single passive.

    What they’ve presented is absolute nonsense
  • max_only
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    I don’t like it. Bosmer don’t need to detect stealthed units, that is even less used in the game. give us back our radius reduction.
    Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)
    quoted from their developer comments

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Their own explanation invalidates their own logic.
    Edited by max_only on January 17, 2019 7:30AM
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Narvuntien
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    :/ well as my twin mains a Bosmer nightblade (PVP) and a DK Dumner (PVE) this really sucks.

    The changes to the tank races seem good but the DPS races just got overall worse particularly since there is still no game mechanic that actually incentivises hybrid builds.

    Will there be accompanying changes to how abilities and light attacks scale with resources?
    Edited by Narvuntien on January 17, 2019 7:01AM
  • Dracan_Fontom
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    I thing I definitely see as bad is giving races like Altmer, Dunmer... and I believe Orsimer free weapon and spell damage. Especially when it's in a large amount as they have been given.
    Edited by Dracan_Fontom on January 17, 2019 7:15AM
  • Vapirko
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    zyk wrote: »
    ZOS is really exposing themselves with these racial changes. For example, after the debacle caused by the introduction of the Swift trait which resulted in an overall mobility nerf, they give Bosmers an insane movement buff.

    How do you think that's going to play out in PVP, ZOS? Have you even considered it?

    I am very attached to my characters. I was careful to choose their races when I made them. Now I am being punished for that.

    These changes are too much.

    Im okay with most. But yeah the speed boost for Bosmer is just a huge buff to Stamblades as no they can roll dodge into cloak and off they go.
  • Lab3360
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    Mayrael wrote: »
    Hahahaha haha I'm laughing so hard. While era wanted nerf Argonians, but this is not how balance works lol, I was telling you how this will end:
    Mayrael wrote: »
    Pitiful whiners, you really think they will nerf Argonians leaving Altmer, Bretons or Redguards untouched? Facepalm... With a chair. The mighty nerf hammer is OTW and no one will be safe thanks to you.

    Yep. Cry babies win again. All racials are mediocre now at best. Nothing oustanding anymore.

    At some point we have to ask ourselves,

    "why pay for a game that make our hard work and fruits of the labor result in weaker or less value"
    Edited by Lab3360 on January 17, 2019 8:23AM
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    If you had a race with 10% max stamina or magicka, and your final build was around 40k magicka or stamina, then these changes are nerfing you by HALF. You will lose effectively 2000 of the 4000 resources in your max pool (39600/1.1) = 36,000 + 2000 = 38,000
    • If you ran a Breton or High Elf Magicka build with 40k magicka, you now have 38k magicka. I guess Magnus took his gift back.
    • If you ran a Redguard Stamina damage build with 40k stamina, you now have lost effectively 200 weapon damage.
    • If you ran a 50k health imperial tank, you now have 46.6k Health

    This isn't "Balance" this is nerfing the top damage dealing builds in the game. This is the price of power creep. This is why the sources of power creep (champion system and gear grind) need to be put in check.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on January 17, 2019 7:59AM
  • Seraphayel
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    Very happy with the Khajiit changes, I like their approach.

    And as a new Khajiit Magicka player I am very much looking forward to it.

    Btw none of the changes made to any race forces you to change races.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • MartiniDaniels
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    mb10 wrote: »
    Absolutely awful.

    Legit better keeping them as they are or totally removing every single passive.

    What they’ve presented is absolute nonsense

    I got a feeling that person responsible spent all time on writing all those beautiful text intro and then his clever boss called him that changes should be out in 30 minutes, so he just made random adjustments to passives and then it was flushed to the forum to frustrate all of us with exception of magkittens and altmers.
    After everybody will burn out, ZOS will roll out other, more reasonable changes, but still forcing to race change some of the toons and so in comparison to today's "hogwash" (c) we will happily run to the crown store relieved that everything is not so bad like it seemed today.
    Or probably this is plan to leave current toons in reserve and start developing necromancers.. i don't think ZOS is stupid, there are no stupidity where is the money. It's classical psychological skill -> frustrate/infuriate -> provide agreeable solution in the shop -> $$$.
    Edited by MartiniDaniels on January 17, 2019 8:01AM
  • gepe87
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    Cancel Racials update. They did an awful work. Still bis races.
    Edited by gepe87 on January 17, 2019 8:05AM
    Gepe, Dunmer MagSorc Pact Grand Overlord | Gaepe, Bosmer MagSorc Dominion General

    If you see edits on my replies: typos. English isn't my main language
  • mairwen85
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    Very happy with the Khajiit changes, I like their approach.

    And as a new Khajiit Magicka player I am very much looking forward to it.

    Btw none of the changes made to any race forces you to change races.

    Apart from Dunmer? Gimped with no compensation. What about Orcs... I get that Kajiit wannabe mages got what they wanted (or the illusion thereof), but everyone else (bar Redguard) got gutted.
    Edited by mairwen85 on January 17, 2019 8:10AM
  • SkysOutThizeOut
    SkysOutThizeOut
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    @Savos_Saren thanks man!
  • Schared
    Schared
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    @Schared the immunity to diseased was there before, it just wasnt listed in the passiv. So they were at least not buffed.

    Are you sure about that @oOMrSmileOo ß First i hear about it :open_mouth:
    cleared AA once i know what iam doing
  • Skwor
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    No changes needed, the race changes are very good.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    I will miss disease immunity but bosmer in active combat will be better. Sustain will be lover for us who stacked, but my bosmer sorc healer was based on movement so it works well.

    Orc has not only speed but adrenaline like passive. Definitely a choice for stamina DPS and tanks... maybe healers to if you account for all kiting needing in larger arenas.

    Dummer though that's a real issue.
  • Vaerth
    Vaerth
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    I personally like the changes, my Stamina Dunmer is now better and I can be any race I like really with less negative impacts.
    Pact Bloodwraith
  • oOMrSmileOo
    oOMrSmileOo
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    @Schared yeah ofc, it was in the game before
    Raidlead of the german progression raiding group "Mind Control"
    Youtube Channel
    Tank, all Trials clear with HM, Immortal redeemer, Tick Tock, Gryphon Heart
  • PapaWeeb
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    bosmer speed buff should be 4 seconds, not 3 seconds, so that it matches up with other speed buffs

    Definitely at least 4 seconds, could be toned down to 10% and still be good
    PC EU
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