It's Official. No Champion Point increase next Update. Thank you Rich for listening!

VanyelMohr · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

I think he was talking about the fact that they nerf classes and other aspect to account for cp, that is true, but i don;t agree with the fact that cp should be removed or nerfed because of it.

Afterall, what is the point, it's still nerfing at the end of the day whether you nerf cp or skills.

I already stated my opinion on this at least 2 times on this thread, but we also gotta look at things objectively, and your argument seem like a misrepresentation of his, or her.

It *might* have been an unfair representation of their most recent post in this thread, but this person has repeatedly insulted those of us who support a progression system in the game, as they do again in the post you are referencing. I believe they have stated they want to do away with vertical progression altogether, which is where my cookie cutter build comment comes from. They have repeatedly said that progression is an illusion in an effort to insult the intelligence of people who don't agree with them.

THE WHOLE GAME IS AN ILLUSION. My sorc shoots lightning from a stick. This is an illusion. Sadly, I am not really a tall, handsome, blond guy with killer tattoos. I will never actually own a mansion on a beautiful island in a world where magic is real.

The point is, I WANT illusion. I want the illusion that a bear will fight to protect me. I want the illusion that I get stronger the longer I play and complete content. I want the illusion that the monster in a newly discovered cave is bigger and badder than the last one I fought and I have to be that much stronger to defeat it. I want the illusion I have frost or lightning powers. I want the illusion that I have become powerful enough that mudcrabs are a nuisance to me now. I want the illusion, represented by the cp system, that I am improving skills which complement my character as I envision it and minimize weaknesses I might have as a player in pure skill.

I don't care that ZOS has to change the numbers on their end from time to time to provide me that illusion. Illusion is the whole reason I play this game. Do I want the game to be as fair as possible? Yes. I absolutely do not mind when ZOS re-balances skills so that races and classes roughly have the same effectiveness. Will I obsess about doing 1% less damage? No.

Part of my urgency in responding to anti-progression people is that I didn't know this debate was going on until Rich announced that cp cap was going to be paused for the "forseeable" future. I was unsettled that they didn't have a clear plan of how to move forward. When I came to the forums to try to learn more, I saw people arguing to remove vertical progression completely from the game and it seemingly being the consensus.

Progression, illusion or not, is why I enjoy RPGs. Removal of progression, to me, means that this game is no longer an RPG. It'll become a fancy choose your own adventure, a mobile game, or a basic fighting game depending on what the focus becomes without progression. So, I've been really active in the forums recently because Rich seems to have heard one side of a debate and it's not clear to me whether my side has been heard. Non-progression people have represented their side to be overwhelmingly popular. I'm not a streamer, so I don't get to broadcast my opinion to 100s or thousands of people. I don't get invitations to ZOS to have my opinion heard.

I like this game so much and was so sure of it's future that I purchased a year subscription as a gift to myself for Christmas. That future seems less sure to me now and, beyond my enjoyment in the game, I may have made a poor financial investment.

So I might be over reacting somewhat. I don't have all the facts. As they become more clear to me I'll be able to make more informed arguments and decisions about whether to play the game in the future.

JinMori · January 2019

VanyelMohr wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

I think he was talking about the fact that they nerf classes and other aspect to account for cp, that is true, but i don;t agree with the fact that cp should be removed or nerfed because of it.

Afterall, what is the point, it's still nerfing at the end of the day whether you nerf cp or skills.

I already stated my opinion on this at least 2 times on this thread, but we also gotta look at things objectively, and your argument seem like a misrepresentation of his, or her.

It *might* have been an unfair representation of their most recent post in this thread, but this person has repeatedly insulted those of us who support a progression system in the game, as they do again in the post you are referencing. I believe they have stated they want to do away with vertical progression altogether, which is where my cookie cutter build comment comes from. They have repeatedly said that progression is an illusion in an effort to insult the intelligence of people who don't agree with them.

THE WHOLE GAME IS AN ILLUSION. My sorc shoots lightning from a stick. This is an illusion. Sadly, I am not really a tall, handsome, blond guy with killer tattoos. I will never actually own a mansion on a beautiful island in a world where magic is real.

The point is, I WANT illusion. I want the illusion that a bear will fight to protect me. I want the illusion that I get stronger the longer I play and complete content. I want the illusion that the monster in a newly discovered cave is bigger and badder than the last one I fought and I have to be that much stronger to defeat it. I want the illusion I have frost or lightning powers. I want the illusion that I have become powerful enough that mudcrabs are a nuisance to me now. I want the illusion, represented by the cp system, that I am improving skills which complement my character as I envision it and minimize weaknesses I might have as a player in pure skill.

I don't care that ZOS has to change the numbers on their end from time to time to provide me that illusion. Illusion is the whole reason I play this game. Do I want the game to be as fair as possible? Yes. I absolutely do not mind when ZOS re-balances skills so that races and classes roughly have the same effectiveness. Will I obsess about doing 1% less damage? No.

Part of my urgency in responding to anti-progression people is that I didn't know this debate was going on until Rich announced that cp cap was going to be paused for the "forseeable" future. I was unsettled that they didn't have a clear plan of how to move forward. When I came to the forums to try to learn more, I saw people arguing to remove vertical progression completely from the game and it seemingly being the consensus.

Progression, illusion or not, is why I enjoy RPGs. Removal of progression, to me, means that this game is no longer an RPG. It'll become a fancy choose your own adventure, a mobile game, or a basic fighting game depending on what the focus becomes without progression. So, I've been really active in the forums recently because Rich seems to have heard one side of a debate and it's not clear to me whether my side has been heard. Non-progression people have represented their side to be overwhelmingly popular. I'm not a streamer, so I don't get to broadcast my opinion to 100s or thousands of people. I don't get invitations to ZOS to have my opinion heard.

I like this game so much and was so sure of it's future that I purchased a year subscription as a gift to myself for Christmas. That future seems less sure to me now and, beyond my enjoyment in the game, I may have made a poor financial investment.

So I might be over reacting somewhat. I don't have all the facts. As they become more clear to me I'll be able to make more informed arguments and decisions about whether to play the game in the future.

Yea i want that too, that is why i want vertical progression and horizontal, both of them, not just one.

And yes, i agree with you, afterall, games are all about how it makes you feel, you want to feel more and more powerful, not weaker, so it doesn't matter if you aren't really getting stronger compared to the content, all that matters is the feeling of being powerful, getting nerfed every patch to fix a problem that could be solved in a much better way is just annoying, and it makes me not want to play this game anymore.

Tabbycat · January 2019

Blizzard nerfed build choice and homogenized their races and ruined World of Warcraft in the process.

Now you lot are trying to get ZOS to destroy ESO in the same way.

Imryll · January 2019

I'm so glad they've made this change. Now perhaps they can balance content in a way that will work for both no CP players and folks at the CP maximum who want greater challenge. The every-widening power gulf between those groups was bad for both. Long term I'd like to see an actual reduction in the marginal power provided by CP and a return of power to abilities, making a greater number of those fun and effective to use.

Joy_Division · January 2019

Hopefully this is a signal that ZOS is thinking of implementing a better end-game progression system.

Anotherone773 · January 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

A majority of players like progression.

This game is growing every year precisely because it doesn't focus on vertical progression and has moved more towards a sandbox style.

The game's player base tripled after One Tamriel (the update that introduced scaling) came out and hasn't looked back since

So no, it would appear that the majority of players don't like vertical progression.

Lol no that isnt why it grew. It grew because the 1T update was a unique concept in an mmo world. It was a novelty that put ESO in the spotlight. A year later they added consoles and removed subs. Anytime you add platforms and remove a fee you are going to get a big boost.

What you have to look at is player retention. Eventually you will run out of "new players". There are not a lot of 800 plus CP people running around Tamriel. There are tons of low CP and no CP though. The average player will reach 800 CP in 6 - 18 month. That tells me that a large majority of players are relatively new to the game but the game is approaching 5 years old. This means the game has a high turnover rate and very low player retention. This is something i observed when i started playing about 18 months ago. I guessed when i was new that the end game left a lot to be desired because there was nothing to keep people logging in once they achieved cap. I was correct. End game is quite blah and people stop logging in.

If you take a game like Eve in comparison it has loads of people that have been playing 5,10, and more years. I am working on year 11 in that game. It has a lower player based but much much higher retention. That is because Eve is all about the end game. Once you get in t2 things really start to get interesting and only progress from there.

ESO, on the other hand, falls on it face as soon as you hit CP levels. You confuse the popularity of a free to play game in a very popular and established SP series that continues to keep itself in the "news" with updates with the desire of the player base to have little to no progression. If the latter was true, i would see loads of vet players running around. When i jump into random dungeons and BGs, i should see a lot of high level players. I am usually the highest level player ( upper 700s) in any random group.

People are getting bored after a bit and moving on. You need progression to retain a majority of players. Eventually ESO will run out of new players.

SugaComa · January 2019

CP needs to stay
.. but the bsyead of combat bonuses should be things like increased chance of X item from refining X

Increased chance of X from killing X

Similar to the increased chest thing

faerigirl · January 2019

VanyelMohr wrote: »

I like feeling a sense of progression. I hope they add a system that makes me feel like I have something to work towards. Your Beastmaster suggestion does nothing for me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

Totally agree.

You may see a node as iron at level 5 but as a master crafter I may see it as electrum (or whatever) so if I walk in like a boss to Bleak Rock so can every bot out there and we have enough issues with bot IMO.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · January 2019

Tabbycat wrote: »

Blizzard nerfed build choice and homogenized their races and ruined World of Warcraft in the process.

Now you lot are trying to get ZOS to destroy ESO in the same way.

Every time ZOS steals power from class skills, and now racials, they are nerfing build choice and homogenizing the races.

The champion system gives ZERO uniqueness to build choice and racial options, it just gives you raw damage, healing, mitigation, it actually lets you ignore some of the downsides of your more important choices like armor type.

That's why people call it crutch points.

I just want my character to feel powerful based on the choices I make in game. The class I choose, the race I choose, the skills I use. I don't want all my power stolen from me and locked behind a simplistic vertical system or locked behind constantly chasing new gear.

But ZOS insists on robbing my class and race of all its power and giving it to gear and progression systems for me to grind back and that really makes my not want to log in anymore.

randomkeyhits · January 2019

Some people love the vertical progression systems and chasing of more power, some love the expansion of choice and more breadth to a game. You can't really satisfy both though after many years of MMO playing I have to say that I prefer the direction ESO is heading.

Vertical progression has a few serious flaws

old content is no longer relevant
new instances only really apply to top end players
each new release restarts the grind, all new gear, all must have.
new players cannot get to the latest content without a truly serious grind or a cash shop skip to X level as your starting point.
you have only the latest, possibly the latest two DLC you can play for gear.
Leave the game for a release or two and you are now in catch up mode.

To me horizontal progression has one major flaw

Some players need the illusionary progression from the vertical system to engage them.

I was going to add with vertical progression dev teams seem to have no actual ability to balance powers but then I release ESO proves to me that system is irrelevant for that... Add anything vertical or horizontal and it seems to go wrong.

Take DCUO as an example, from their own numbers by the time they had reached tier 6 or 7 only 2 - 3% of players could actually unlock the new content, every one else was CR gated somewhere below that and sometimes by quite a long way. If you enjoyed Prime Battle Ground as challenging content then you had create a new character level it appropriately and then use it at that level. If you got better gear the game forced you away from it. Deleting and recreating characters to enjoy specific content is not progression.

Compare that with ESO, I could stop playing for six months or longer but I know that if I came back then my characters would still be relevant and capable of whatever new content has been added. Simple builds based on hundings or julianos won't be anything like BIS but they would certainly be able to do most things easily enough and the only thing stopping me from starting to get the latest BIS gear is how long it takes to put a group together.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2019

JJBoomer wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

It's a lazy fix, not impressed.

What they should have done is make new difficulties accounting for cp, but i guess it's too much to ask to actually follow up to the systems you make.

And people are glad about this, Jesus Christ, talk about low standards.

power creep is a real issues that damages combat in games like this. so looking to remedy that is a good thing. and they are allowed to rethink systems once created.

Power creep is common in all MMOs. There are ways devs try to adjust for it in content one of the biggest adds is one shot mechanics, which is never a good solution.

Instead simply lower stats across the board is one simple and very effective measure to ensure a more balanced game. Than use CP to ensure players can raise those stats above the norm but not to the level we see today.

Most builds have 10-15K minimum in non-build related stats and the primary stat for the build is 30K+. Lowering these values by 25-50% and allowing players to use CP to raise them is a great way to keep CP relative.

Another method is adding diminishing returns soft and hard caps where after you exceed a certain stat level your grains from the stat take longer to improve and the hard cap makes it so so matter how many points you exceed in that stat there is no longer a return on your investment.

I would do both of these to the game it may help unique builds out such as players that run combo stamina and magika DPS builds. It would add value to other stats and make CP in other areas more useful.

These are just thoughts on two simple ways to fix the issue.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · January 2019

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

Blizzard nerfed build choice and homogenized their races and ruined World of Warcraft in the process.

Now you lot are trying to get ZOS to destroy ESO in the same way.

Every time ZOS steals power from class skills, and now racials, they are nerfing build choice and homogenizing the races.

The champion system gives ZERO uniqueness to build choice and racial options, it just gives you raw damage, healing, mitigation, it actually lets you ignore some of the downsides of your more important choices like armor type.

That's why people call it crutch points.

I just want my character to feel powerful based on the choices I make in game. The class I choose, the race I choose, the skills I use. I don't want all my power stolen from me and locked behind a simplistic vertical system or locked behind constantly chasing new gear.

But ZOS insists on robbing my class and race of all its power and giving it to gear and progression systems for me to grind back and that really makes my not want to log in anymore.

I want to stress the part about feeling powerful based on choices you make. I want that too, I really do. But I want both the feeling of power based on my choices as a player, and the feeling of power based on the concept of getting stronger over time. I want to be proud of doing 30K dps, but I don't want to do 30K dps forever. It all goes back to the power fantasy, but my power fantasy involves me growing (probably because I watched a lot of DBZ as a kid, and that series revolves around dudes continuously getting stronger for hundreds of episodes).

Is it artificial? Yes, but as some are pointing out, everything's artificial anyway. Is it clumsily handled in this game? Oh god yes, but at least it's something. I'm not opposed to a different form of character progression, but I think we need something that results in bigger numbers, be it gear or champion points or even new morphs for skills that unlock for completing certain milestones.

And to your credit, you are right about ZOS robbing players of their own power via nerfing abilities. It's frustrating for me too. But what most people seem to be glossing over is that power creep is a problem entirely in their own minds. This includes the devs.

Unless there is some actual system strain reason we can't keep getting bigger numbers, I don't see why letting power continue to creep is a bad thing. The devs are fighting something they and many of their players perceive as a problem. But why is it a problem? Overland mobs already die in 2 shots, who cares if it goes down to 1 in the future? That certainly doesn't de-value my gameplay experience, I don't do overland expecting engaging combat anyway. It's something for casuals to worry about, I'm there for skillpoints or gear farming, and occasionally to experience the story, which isn't contingent on combat anyway.

Trials getting harder / being designed around max CP at the time of release is enough for me. Dungeons I see as casual-leaning content and so I disagree with the progressive difficulty increase from a design standpoint, but I could accept it if they were in a different queue. In most MMOs, raids and PvP are the only real endgame anyway.

As long as endgame viable gear keeps dropping from mid and low-tier dungeons and trials, they will maintain a healthy population, even if the meta moves on. Look at the craglorn trials, I see AA and HRC groups forming all the time, and those are super old.

TL; DR there are certainly ways to improve it, but the CP system provides a means of progression and the 1 tamriel scaling makes overland super easy for vets but still relevant to everyone and engaging to casuals, which is the key. Right now, the game's fundamental idea of mixing horizontal and vertical progression is the right call that draws in the most players possible, and it would be a poor decision to let it end over some perception that power creep needs to be nerfed into submission.

Nebthet78 · January 2019

[

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Another method is adding diminishing returns soft and hard caps where after you exceed a certain stat level your grains from the stat take longer to improve and the hard cap makes it so so matter how many points you exceed in that stat there is no longer a return on your investment.

I would do both of these to the game it may help unique builds out such as players that run combo stamina and magika DPS builds. It would add value to other stats and make CP in other areas more useful.

These are just thoughts on two simple ways to fix the issue.

This is what I've been saying they need to do.. I've just been incorrectly calling them all soft caps..

CP is fine.... Vertical Progression is fine.... but they do need to put in Hard Caps on all of our Stats AND on MAX DPS!

This will then cause players to make different choices within the CP system based on what we need for our character choices and our play style.

Max DPS should be set 10k over what they designed the HM Trials bosses to be achievable at. Ie: 35k DPS.

This would actually work to mitigate the issue A LOT of players have with Animation Cancelling allowing the more skilled or elite end game players being able to pull waaaaaaaaay ahead of everyone else. And yes, Animation Cancelling is a huge part of the DPS issue, especially with all the lag in this game.

Then, once players meet Hard Caps within certain stats, they can concentrate on spending points in other areas, or if they don't want anything from there, not spend them at all.
This will also open up Build Diversity. Make Hybrids great again. Especially seeing how some of the new racial changes are better geared towards Hybrid builds. This will allow players to put points in both Stamina and Magicka Regen and allow them to be competative for more end game content. In time, everyone will meet all end game caps, and will be on even playing ground.

The mistake ZOS made when they introduced CP and One Tamriel was the removal of Hard Caps. That is what caused the huge power creep in this game to continue. And there is nothing that says they can't adjust where the Hard Cap Bar needs to be in the future. It will make it a lot easier for them to change that bar, than it will be to go through and change individual skills continuously, and hopefully it will finally give them time to bring us new systems of combat and abilities to work with.

TL;DR

Bring back Hard Caps
- Makes Hybrid builds viable
- Makes Armour choices more diverse
- Makes CP choice work with what you need based on your play style and not just BiS stats.
- Continues to provide a sense of progression, but with an end cap.
- Mitigates some of the DPS discrepancy caused due to Animation Cancelling (A bug that became a feature due to ZOS being unable to fix it), thus, lowering the ceiling without destroying the middle tier players dps.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I do hope this is something you guys are actually considering while you figure out what you are doing with the CP.

Lumsdenml · January 2019

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of end game progression line added with some interesting, even non-combat skills we can earn that give us something to do if they want to get rid of CP totally.

It's nice earning stuff like harvesting, or a little rez bonus, etc. more than just flat buffs and bonuses to entire swaths of damage.

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

Imagine farming crafting nodes with no pesky critters attacking you. Because they fear you based on your champion level.

This is an awesome idea!

rexagamemnon · January 2019

so I watched the after show on youtube this afternoon. Sounds like they are leaning more in the direction of possibly in the future removing the CP System. what I for see is PVP in the future will make a lot of people upset. In many cases CP is what saves a lot of "good" PVP'rs, if they remove it, a lot of the "elite" players will start crying and the forums will be a toxic wasteland for months probably for years to come. we all saw how bad it was when they did the much needed nerf towards the sort recently... there was not enough cheese to go around with all the wine.

Universe · January 2019

This is a wise move in the right direction.
Announcing it a couple of years ago would have been better, though.
Game combat balance should always come first.

There were more than a few good announcements lately

I'm currently downloading ESO after 3+ months break

It may be too soon to celebrate, but I'm optimistic.
Q1 Wrathstone may provide some improvements.
Though I will not be surprised if most of the balance changes will be implemented in Q2 Elsweyr and its incremental patches.

roflcopter · January 2019

I am a little surprised that they decided to do this before fixing the animation canceling bug which is holding more players back content wise and getting into progression groups more than CP. To me Animation Canceling was never intended to begin with and the devs just kind of rolled with as it did create some unintended separation and progression. At least give other players the option to turn off animations in settings. This would open up worlds of content for those not "elite" enough to use a broken mechanic.

In PVP CP to me isn't the issue, or how you can tell with server lag item lag, obvious response issues if CP cap is actually a problem, I always thought those issues needed to be cleaned up before you could tell what the actual issues are in pvp. Half the time i hear my potion and ulti go off but nothing happens. Then Insta dying from the response times and looking at the recap at all the avoidable things that you obviously didn't see.

Removing CP altogether is fine really. It just feels other parts are at play that causes lack of progression than CP.

Either way GLTYA

LiquidPony · January 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

[

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Another method is adding diminishing returns soft and hard caps where after you exceed a certain stat level your grains from the stat take longer to improve and the hard cap makes it so so matter how many points you exceed in that stat there is no longer a return on your investment.

I would do both of these to the game it may help unique builds out such as players that run combo stamina and magika DPS builds. It would add value to other stats and make CP in other areas more useful.

These are just thoughts on two simple ways to fix the issue.

This is what I've been saying they need to do.. I've just been incorrectly calling them all soft caps..

CP is fine.... Vertical Progression is fine.... but they do need to put in Hard Caps on all of our Stats AND on MAX DPS!

This will then cause players to make different choices within the CP system based on what we need for our character choices and our play style.

Max DPS should be set 10k over what they designed the HM Trials bosses to be achievable at. Ie: 35k DPS.

This would actually work to mitigate the issue A LOT of players have with Animation Cancelling allowing the more skilled or elite end game players being able to pull waaaaaaaaay ahead of everyone else. And yes, Animation Cancelling is a huge part of the DPS issue, especially with all the lag in this game.

Then, once players meet Hard Caps within certain stats, they can concentrate on spending points in other areas, or if they don't want anything from there, not spend them at all.
This will also open up Build Diversity. Make Hybrids great again. Especially seeing how some of the new racial changes are better geared towards Hybrid builds. This will allow players to put points in both Stamina and Magicka Regen and allow them to be competative for more end game content. In time, everyone will meet all end game caps, and will be on even playing ground.

The mistake ZOS made when they introduced CP and One Tamriel was the removal of Hard Caps. That is what caused the huge power creep in this game to continue. And there is nothing that says they can't adjust where the Hard Cap Bar needs to be in the future. It will make it a lot easier for them to change that bar, than it will be to go through and change individual skills continuously, and hopefully it will finally give them time to bring us new systems of combat and abilities to work with.

TL;DR

Bring back Hard Caps
- Makes Hybrid builds viable
- Makes Armour choices more diverse
- Makes CP choice work with what you need based on your play style and not just BiS stats.
- Continues to provide a sense of progression, but with an end cap.
- Mitigates some of the DPS discrepancy caused due to Animation Cancelling (A bug that became a feature due to ZOS being unable to fix it), thus, lowering the ceiling without destroying the middle tier players dps.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I do hope this is something you guys are actually considering while you figure out what you are doing with the CP.

Hard capping DPS is quite literally the most awful idea I've ever seen on these forums.

I disagree with hard capping stats in general, but hard capping DPS is ridiculous. You're completely throwing skill out the window at that point. People do more DPS because they practice more and they have better group support. We're already all on a level playing field. Everyone can get the same gear and the same CP without any extraordinary effort. The only differentiating factor is the stuff that does take effort: combat skill (a function of research and practice) and group synergy (a function of research and the hard work of team-building).

And you've got your ESO history and facts all wrong. CP was introduced in Update 6, in March of 2015, long before One Tamriel. The same update removed the "Overcharge" mechanic, which was the soft-capping system that had been in place since beta. There were never hard caps on stats like max magicka, crit, weapon damage, etc., unless they were there in very early alpha/beta before I started playing.

Oy vey.

Nebthet78 · January 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

[

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Another method is adding diminishing returns soft and hard caps where after you exceed a certain stat level your grains from the stat take longer to improve and the hard cap makes it so so matter how many points you exceed in that stat there is no longer a return on your investment.

I would do both of these to the game it may help unique builds out such as players that run combo stamina and magika DPS builds. It would add value to other stats and make CP in other areas more useful.

These are just thoughts on two simple ways to fix the issue.

This is what I've been saying they need to do.. I've just been incorrectly calling them all soft caps..

CP is fine.... Vertical Progression is fine.... but they do need to put in Hard Caps on all of our Stats AND on MAX DPS!

This will then cause players to make different choices within the CP system based on what we need for our character choices and our play style.

Max DPS should be set 10k over what they designed the HM Trials bosses to be achievable at. Ie: 35k DPS.

This would actually work to mitigate the issue A LOT of players have with Animation Cancelling allowing the more skilled or elite end game players being able to pull waaaaaaaaay ahead of everyone else. And yes, Animation Cancelling is a huge part of the DPS issue, especially with all the lag in this game.

Then, once players meet Hard Caps within certain stats, they can concentrate on spending points in other areas, or if they don't want anything from there, not spend them at all.
This will also open up Build Diversity. Make Hybrids great again. Especially seeing how some of the new racial changes are better geared towards Hybrid builds. This will allow players to put points in both Stamina and Magicka Regen and allow them to be competative for more end game content. In time, everyone will meet all end game caps, and will be on even playing ground.

The mistake ZOS made when they introduced CP and One Tamriel was the removal of Hard Caps. That is what caused the huge power creep in this game to continue. And there is nothing that says they can't adjust where the Hard Cap Bar needs to be in the future. It will make it a lot easier for them to change that bar, than it will be to go through and change individual skills continuously, and hopefully it will finally give them time to bring us new systems of combat and abilities to work with.

TL;DR

Bring back Hard Caps
- Makes Hybrid builds viable
- Makes Armour choices more diverse
- Makes CP choice work with what you need based on your play style and not just BiS stats.
- Continues to provide a sense of progression, but with an end cap.
- Mitigates some of the DPS discrepancy caused due to Animation Cancelling (A bug that became a feature due to ZOS being unable to fix it), thus, lowering the ceiling without destroying the middle tier players dps.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I do hope this is something you guys are actually considering while you figure out what you are doing with the CP.

Hard capping DPS is quite literally the most awful idea I've ever seen on these forums.

I disagree with hard capping stats in general, but hard capping DPS is ridiculous. You're completely throwing skill out the window at that point. People do more DPS because they practice more and they have better group support. We're already all on a level playing field. Everyone can get the same gear and the same CP without any extraordinary effort. The only differentiating factor is the stuff that does take effort: combat skill (a function of research and practice) and group synergy (a function of research and the hard work of team-building).

And you've got your ESO history and facts all wrong. CP was introduced in Update 6, in March of 2015, long before One Tamriel. The same update removed the "Overcharge" mechanic, which was the soft-capping system that had been in place since beta. There were never hard caps on stats like max magicka, crit, weapon damage, etc., unless they were there in very early alpha/beta before I started playing.

Oy vey.

Now... see here... I called them soft caps before.. then you tell me they are hard caps... the hell man... They are Caps I don't give a flying frack if they are hard or soft.

And sadly.... Animation Cancelling in this game is one of the biggest contributors to the dps differential for Moderate players and the Elite end game. I can a rotation and everything else that matches, but because I can't animation cancel because of lag, or because of back end programs that cause lag, my dps is much much lower than those players that use macros or have no lag issues. There has to be something in this game to mitigate a mechanic that was never intented to be in this game and is unfixable. There must be a way to mitigate the dps difference this mechanic causes.

Capping DPS is going to be the only way to stop the Creep!! It will stop the nerfs and put everyone on a level playing field. It mitigates the dps difference caused by Animation Cancelling.

The problem is the fact that people don't care if other players are nerfed or other players are affected as long as they aren't.

Hard Capping DPS will not prevent players from being able to complete the HM Trials. It will make paying attention to Mechanics actually necessary for faster complete times, rather than bypassing mechanics due to a super high DPS. Which is the reason why we've been nerfed into the ground several times before. And those type of nerfs need to stop happening, as they do nothing but hurt the middle tiered players. It does nothing to hurt the end game elite players and does very little to raise the floor tiered players up.

A 35-40k DPS CAP won't hurt overland content completion. It won't hurt HM Vet Dungeon completion. It won't hurt any PVP dps. The ONLY thing a DPS Cap hurts is End Game Raiding!!! It forces these players to play with the mechanics instead of stack and burn!! There is absolutely no need to have more than 45k DPS is this game at this point. NONE whatsoever!!! Only the Epeen measurers want DPS to keep going up.
And it doesn't mean that ZOS can't raise that cap at any time when they release new content, if they go back to making it harder.

You want CP gone; I don't.

I want a DPS Cap to keep CP; you don't.

You're not going to convince me otherwise.

I'd rather see the top 1% of this game leave, than the middle 30% (or whatever number there are) who keep getting nerfed because of that 1%. Looking at you Hodor.

If the Power Creep due to CP is the issue, then a DPS Cap will do that. Outright. There is a finish line. Then the rest of the CP can be used to flesh out your character build to play the way you want, instead of being forced into a cookie cutter build while remaining somewhat viable.
It's a solution to taking care of said power creep while also keeping the CP system, vertical and horizontal progression and completely opening up diversity to the game.

So I'm done going back and forth with you now Liquid Pony.... You won't change my mind... I won't change yours.

All I see from your arguments now is... take their power away, but don't take my power away. Find a different system that does the same thing, but doesn't resolve the issue.. Don't lower my ceiling and put me in the same group with everyone else!

I'd rather have a solution that actually benefits the 98% of the players in this game, rather than benefiting only the best 2% who can take advantage of mechanics that were unfixable bugs! and later called features.

IonicKai · January 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VanyelMohr wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

A majority of players like progression.

This game is growing every year precisely because it doesn't focus on vertical progression and has moved more towards a sandbox style.

The game's player base tripled after One Tamriel (the update that introduced scaling) came out and hasn't looked back since

So no, it would appear that the majority of players don't like vertical progression.

Vertical progression still exists. Base game content gets easier as your level, gear, and cp points grow. Dungeons get easier as levels, gear, and cp points grow. I can solo world bosses at my current cp level. I couldn't do that at level 1. I can solo some normal dungeons. I couldn't do that at level 1. That is progression.

If they come up with a new system of vertical character progression, I may quibble with some changes but I'll likely come around. If they remove progression completely or cap it permanently, I'm probably out.

Power creep isn't a positive outcome (hence why ZOS is scrapping the CP system). It reduces how much content is available to the player in a game. Content isn't supposed to get easier in a sandbox. If there are 7 trials but only one of them is challenging, then players will only have 1 trial to play, instead of 7. Endgame players were among the most vocal opponents of the CP system.

I don't think most players view it this way. Sure your very top end players are running out of things to do but an overwhelming majority can still struggle with all 7 of those trials on vet.

The power creep by CP is a lot less than many people in this game think due to the diminishing returns. I won't say that it hasn't made the game easier because it certainly is at high CP but the difference isn't that massive. Plenty of CP 600-700 players are better than max CP players because there is a need to be skillful at game mechanics that out weighs the CP system and truthfully people at 500+ CP can complete anything in the game if they truly learn all the mechanics.

A lot of elite players at the top are causing ZOS to put out comprehensive nerfs such as the changes to MagBlades ability cost or shields in general during Murkmire as an answer to adjust this. The problem with that approach is that they just hurt average players who struggle with things like attack weaving, resource management, and dynamic rotations. This leads to an even bigger Gap in player capability and is largely what is making group finder PUG groups so difficult.

Capping CP for now is at best a bandage on the problem as that they really have to deal with is the divide in clarity of how progression is supposed to work on this game and how players can get better.

pieratsos · January 2019

JinMori wrote: »

VanyelMohr wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I hope all you progression people saw ZOS's new post on Racial Changes;

They went and did exactly what I predicted they would do: They removed ALL max stat % Racial Passives and replaced them with static values.

@VanyelMohr @Diminish

Perhaps I'm being too flippant and hyperbolic in this thread. Here is a concrete example of why I say Vertical Progression is essentially a "Treadmill" or Meaningless

So lets say you have an endgame "progression" PvE magicka DPS character (breton or high elf) with 35 -40K max magicka.
I will use one of Alcasts builds as an example because they are pretty uniform across the board for magicka. (Siroria/spell strat)

That build has about 39,600 magicka. Your breton or High elf had a 10% max magicka perk from racial passives.

Without this magicka perk (39600/1.1) you would have 36,000 magicka. That's a 4000 magicka loss. If you add ZOS's flat rate value back in, you will end up with 38,000 magicak. Your racial passive was nerfed in half. You lost 2000 magicka, which is about 200 spell damage.

This is what happens every time. ZOS buffs you with one hand, then nerfs you with the other. On a long enough timeline you don't progress because another sweeping nerf comes in and takes away the power you gained.

Make cookie cutter builds. All have the same stats and abilities. No one can claim someone else's class race is broken. Everything is based on raw skill instead of progression. The only thing one has to differentiate themselves from one another is their costumes. Wonderful fun.

The treadmill you describe does not exist. I am not as weak at CP719 as I was at level 1. A game where there is no progression and you just repeat content ad nauseum is a treadmill.

I think he was talking about the fact that they nerf classes and other aspect to account for cp, that is true, but i don;t agree with the fact that cp should be removed or nerfed because of it.

Afterall, what is the point, it's still nerfing at the end of the day whether you nerf cp or skills.

I already stated my opinion on this at least 2 times on this thread, but we also gotta look at things objectively, and your argument seem like a misrepresentation of his, or her.

The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

VanyelMohr · January 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Nebthet78 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

[

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Another method is adding diminishing returns soft and hard caps where after you exceed a certain stat level your grains from the stat take longer to improve and the hard cap makes it so so matter how many points you exceed in that stat there is no longer a return on your investment.

I would do both of these to the game it may help unique builds out such as players that run combo stamina and magika DPS builds. It would add value to other stats and make CP in other areas more useful.

These are just thoughts on two simple ways to fix the issue.

This is what I've been saying they need to do.. I've just been incorrectly calling them all soft caps..

CP is fine.... Vertical Progression is fine.... but they do need to put in Hard Caps on all of our Stats AND on MAX DPS!

This will then cause players to make different choices within the CP system based on what we need for our character choices and our play style.

Max DPS should be set 10k over what they designed the HM Trials bosses to be achievable at. Ie: 35k DPS.

This would actually work to mitigate the issue A LOT of players have with Animation Cancelling allowing the more skilled or elite end game players being able to pull waaaaaaaaay ahead of everyone else. And yes, Animation Cancelling is a huge part of the DPS issue, especially with all the lag in this game.

Then, once players meet Hard Caps within certain stats, they can concentrate on spending points in other areas, or if they don't want anything from there, not spend them at all.
This will also open up Build Diversity. Make Hybrids great again. Especially seeing how some of the new racial changes are better geared towards Hybrid builds. This will allow players to put points in both Stamina and Magicka Regen and allow them to be competative for more end game content. In time, everyone will meet all end game caps, and will be on even playing ground.

The mistake ZOS made when they introduced CP and One Tamriel was the removal of Hard Caps. That is what caused the huge power creep in this game to continue. And there is nothing that says they can't adjust where the Hard Cap Bar needs to be in the future. It will make it a lot easier for them to change that bar, than it will be to go through and change individual skills continuously, and hopefully it will finally give them time to bring us new systems of combat and abilities to work with.

TL;DR

Bring back Hard Caps
- Makes Hybrid builds viable
- Makes Armour choices more diverse
- Makes CP choice work with what you need based on your play style and not just BiS stats.
- Continues to provide a sense of progression, but with an end cap.
- Mitigates some of the DPS discrepancy caused due to Animation Cancelling (A bug that became a feature due to ZOS being unable to fix it), thus, lowering the ceiling without destroying the middle tier players dps.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I do hope this is something you guys are actually considering while you figure out what you are doing with the CP.

Hard capping DPS is quite literally the most awful idea I've ever seen on these forums.

I disagree with hard capping stats in general, but hard capping DPS is ridiculous. You're completely throwing skill out the window at that point. People do more DPS because they practice more and they have better group support. We're already all on a level playing field. Everyone can get the same gear and the same CP without any extraordinary effort. The only differentiating factor is the stuff that does take effort: combat skill (a function of research and practice) and group synergy (a function of research and the hard work of team-building).

And you've got your ESO history and facts all wrong. CP was introduced in Update 6, in March of 2015, long before One Tamriel. The same update removed the "Overcharge" mechanic, which was the soft-capping system that had been in place since beta. There were never hard caps on stats like max magicka, crit, weapon damage, etc., unless they were there in very early alpha/beta before I started playing.

Oy vey.

Now... see here... I called them soft caps before.. then you tell me they are hard caps... the hell man... They are Caps I don't give a flying frack if they are hard or soft.

And sadly.... Animation Cancelling in this game is one of the biggest contributors to the dps differential for Moderate players and the Elite end game. I can a rotation and everything else that matches, but because I can't animation cancel because of lag, or because of back end programs that cause lag, my dps is much much lower than those players that use macros or have no lag issues. There has to be something in this game to mitigate a mechanic that was never intented to be in this game and is unfixable. There must be a way to mitigate the dps difference this mechanic causes.

Capping DPS is going to be the only way to stop the Creep!! It will stop the nerfs and put everyone on a level playing field. It mitigates the dps difference caused by Animation Cancelling.

The problem is the fact that people don't care if other players are nerfed or other players are affected as long as they aren't.

Hard Capping DPS will not prevent players from being able to complete the HM Trials. It will make paying attention to Mechanics actually necessary for faster complete times, rather than bypassing mechanics due to a super high DPS. Which is the reason why we've been nerfed into the ground several times before. And those type of nerfs need to stop happening, as they do nothing but hurt the middle tiered players. It does nothing to hurt the end game elite players and does very little to raise the floor tiered players up.

A 35-40k DPS CAP won't hurt overland content completion. It won't hurt HM Vet Dungeon completion. It won't hurt any PVP dps. The ONLY thing a DPS Cap hurts is End Game Raiding!!! It forces these players to play with the mechanics instead of stack and burn!! There is absolutely no need to have more than 45k DPS is this game at this point. NONE whatsoever!!! Only the Epeen measurers want DPS to keep going up.
And it doesn't mean that ZOS can't raise that cap at any time when they release new content, if they go back to making it harder.

You want CP gone; I don't.

I want a DPS Cap to keep CP; you don't.

You're not going to convince me otherwise.

I'd rather see the top 1% of this game leave, than the middle 30% (or whatever number there are) who keep getting nerfed because of that 1%. Looking at you Hodor.

If the Power Creep due to CP is the issue, then a DPS Cap will do that. Outright. There is a finish line. Then the rest of the CP can be used to flesh out your character build to play the way you want, instead of being forced into a cookie cutter build while remaining somewhat viable.
It's a solution to taking care of said power creep while also keeping the CP system, vertical and horizontal progression and completely opening up diversity to the game.

So I'm done going back and forth with you now Liquid Pony.... You won't change my mind... I won't change yours.

All I see from your arguments now is... take their power away, but don't take my power away. Find a different system that does the same thing, but doesn't resolve the issue.. Don't lower my ceiling and put me in the same group with everyone else!

I'd rather have a solution that actually benefits the 98% of the players in this game, rather than benefiting only the best 2% who can take advantage of mechanics that were unfixable bugs! and later called features.

Let me succinctly demonstrate to you why our "35-40k" hard DPS cap is a horrible, no-good, terrible, stupid, asinine idea.

And at the same time, I will also demonstrate that your totally fallacious notion that the "middle 30% keep getting nerfed" is absolutely, 100%, unquestionably wrong.

Take a stamblade. Put on Relequen, Velidreth, and some other DPS set (Advancing Yokeda, Hunding's Rage, Veiled Heritance, whatever). Do the following rotation:

Relentless Focus, Rearming Trap, Light Attack x 5, Bow proc, Light Attack x 5, Bow Proc, Light Attack x 5, Bow Proc, repeat

In execute, do nothing but spam Killer's Blade.

Use whatever ultimate you want. Incap, Ballista, Dawnbreaker, Rend, whatever. Just pop it when it's up. Ballista is probably the best.

No DoTs other than Trap. No bar swapping unless you're using a back bar ultimate. No "animation cancelling" except maybe a couple of incidental Light Attack weaves. What kind of DPS do you think you'll do?

I am 100% not joking ... that's what it takes to do 40k DPS in the current state of the game. That's where you legitimately think we should be hard capped. And to prove I'm not yanking your chain, I actually tested it:

OK, so maybe Relequen is just ridiculous and stamblades are just OP.

So take a magblade. Equip Siroria, Spell Strategist or Elegance or BSW or whatever, a Maelstrom Inferno and Zaan. Do the following rotation:

Channeled Acceleration, Merciless Resolve

Blockade of Fire, swap, Light Attack x 5, Bow proc, Light Attack x 5, Bow proc, swap, Blockade of Fire, swap, Light Attack x 5, Bow Proc, Merciless Resolve, repeat.

In execute, spam Impale.

Use whatever ultimate you want. Destro ulti, Meteor, Soul Harvest, whatever. Just pop it when it's up. I used Destro but I only got one off so Meteor would've probably been better.

Again, not joking, that's what it takes to do 40k+ DPS on a magblade in the current state of the game. You're literally using one DoT, light attack spamming, casting your proc when it's up, and then executing:

Do you have any idea what it took to do 40k+ DPS on a stamblade or a magblade a couple of years ago? I guarantee you it wasn't 1 skill and light attack spam.

You don't understand the difference between hard caps and soft caps.

You don't know what caps existed in the game in the past or what caps currently exist.

You claim that I "want CP gone" when I certainly never said anything of the sort.

You blame your L2P issue on the "animation canceling" bogeyman.

But whatever. You're right, I'm not going to convince you of anything. But it doesn't matter. Do you know why?

Because ZOS will absolutely, 100%, unequivocally never put am arbitrary hard cap on DPS. It's a terrible idea, it makes no sense, and it'll never happen. If it does, I will give you all of my stuff and delete my account. Maybe on the same day all schools in the world will just start automatically giving everyone C's regardless of their actual performance, all jobs in the world will start paying everyone $20 an hour regardless of their responsibility, and monkeys will fly out of my butthole.

pieratsos · January 2019

VanyelMohr wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

You got a pretty shallow definition of what unique and powerfull means. No they are not unique. All classes got repeatedly nerfed to compensate for the power u gain through cp and gear. They are shadows of theirselves at this point.

Tigerseye · January 2019

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd like to see some sort of end game progression line added with some interesting, even non-combat skills we can earn that give us something to do if they want to get rid of CP totally.

It's nice earning stuff like harvesting, or a little rez bonus, etc. more than just flat buffs and bonuses to entire swaths of damage.

There are plenty of really cool endgame perks you could add instead of just more damage, more healing, etc. Here's an example.

Beastmaster perk. Prevents low level enemies in base game zones from attacking or aggroing on you when you walk by. Would be nice to not have a low level wolf or bandit always decide to pick a fight with me that they will always lose. Plus it would make you feel like a boss going into low zones where they know not to mess with you. Immersive, useful, respectful of your progression, and fun. that is what the champ system should be.

Imagine farming crafting nodes with no pesky critters attacking you. Because they fear you based on your champion level.

I like that idea, as I don't like attacking critters.

On the other hand, aside from the rewards from daily writs, where would leather come from, then?

Tigerseye · January 2019

It is a long grind to max CP, for new players.

It took me a while, especially as I saved my scrolls and stuff for future chars.

Wonder what they will replace it with (if anything)?

GW2, for example, doesn't really have much character, or gear, progression after max level.

You get to max level, you gear once in Exotic, then again in Ascended/Legendary (which have the same stats as each other) and that is it.

Ascended being from drops and Legendary being crafted (via a nightmare crafting system, imo), or bought for far too much gold.

Advantage of Legendary over Ascended being looks and the ability to switch its stats for PVE/PVP etc..

As for skills and stuff, they are relatively straight-forward, you can change them whenever and wherever you like (for free) and they don't change/progress after you have learned everything in that skill line.

Every now and then they introduce a new skill line, which you can switch to, or ignore and that is pretty much it.

Skwor wrote: »

The CP will be raised for the next chaper, just not for this DLC.

Also they will not be taking CP away, to many players have to much time vested in it, it would be one of the few things that really would kill this game.

This same BS line of complianing was around when we had Veteran Ranks. When they announced it was going away those short sighted cheered believing that was the end of vertical prograssion. I warned them then that it would never happen and that what will happen will just be another system of vertical progression, well sure enough we got CP.

It seems I get to say this again, mark my words we will either see another CP increase OR just another vertical progression system, either way you will always have some sort of leveling system to chase after.

No MMORPG can survive without some sort of vertical progression, wether you like this or not it is just a fact, the nature of the beast so to speak.

You can bet on this.

GW2 doesn't do it like that.

It was one of the things I liked about it.

Ended up leaving as I wasn't really enjoying the direction the PVE side of the game was going in, dungeons (especially in random groups) were a nightmare, there was no housing as such, and they killed off EOTM and, to an extent, WvW in general.

Also, kept lagging really badly and crashing in WvW, which made it increasingly unplayable.

But, in terms of character progression, it was nice to not have to worry about it.

You could still progress in WvW ranks (and various other things) and continue to get Ascended and/or Legendary gear and you could level up new skill lines as they appeared; but, your char itself was more-or-less free from required grind, after a certain point.

The lack of character progression didn't seem to harm its popularity, either - other things did (including some of the things I've mentioned here), but not that.

Morgul667 wrote: »

Quite sad about this

They remove cp power creep but keep gear induced power creep

So what reason do we have playing? No progression ? No pvp due to bad performance?

That does not look fun

Should only play a game if you're enjoying it.

Not much point logging in, hating every minute of it, but congratulating yourself on another CP level, or new piece of gear, is there?

Either you enjoy the game (or certain aspects of it), or you don't.

If you don't, what exactly are you levelling CP and/or grinding gear for?

You have every right to complain about poor PVP performance, though, as that affects your potential enjoyment of the game.

VanyelMohr · January 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

VanyelMohr wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The whole freaking point of completely reworking CP is so they can actually give the power back to the classes and make them feel unique again. That is the point.

I don't understand how they're not unique now. My sorc seems different than my warden to me.

You got a pretty shallow definition of what unique and powerfull means. No they are not unique. All classes got repeatedly nerfed to compensate for the power u gain through cp and gear. They are shadows of theirselves at this point.

Please describe to me a non-shallow definition of what unique and powerful mean. How, specifically, does nerfing classes/races make them less unique? Are they less unique because they no longer have an advantage over another class? If so, what's the difference between "uniqueness" and class imbalance? How did nerfing classes make them less unique if all the classes were nerfed? If all the classes were nerfed, how does that make them less powerful relative to the other classes? Were they nerfed unequally? Do you equate power to seeing bigger numbers on your screen, or is power related to your effectiveness against other classes? Do you define uniqueness as differences in numbers on your screen or a difference in class skills?

Thank you in advance for your answers. I'm looking forward to being informed so I can understand uniqueness and power in a less shallow way.

Tigerseye · January 2019

generalmyrick wrote: »

people worked hard for those points...i like not having to have a group of friends to solo things like IC world bosses....

We all like being able to solo things, sometimes.

I don't see why that should change.

Neoicelord wrote: »

Then what is the point in even playing the game? i play mmorpgs to get STRONGER as i do more content, if this entire "expansion" is just for lore/story and not for increasing my toon's power, i am done. Sick of mmorpgs being dumbed down for the mainstream/casual people.

This MMO was never supposed to be for the exclusively hardcore.

If you wanted that, you should have played Wildstar.

Maybe if you had, it would still exist.

Sendrik · January 2019

I dont like this new trend,where apparantly,every mmoRPG has to be a moba without real character progression,please dont make this become a second guild wars 2
Having next to no character progression was one of the reasons i left,it was simply a online dress up game.
Even wow adjusted stats for pvp,up to the point where they dont give a huge stat boost anymore.

There are already non-cp bg,s and campaigns,i hope they are not making the game too casual friendly by removing the whole cp system and replacing it with,,non combat perks''.
Its a mmorpg afterall,and a important core aspect of those,is to become stronger over time and it wasnt a issue in the past.
But over the last few years it suddenly became a bad thing for some reason,it looks like people forgot what it means to put time and effort into a mmo,or they got spoiled by the latest moba wave and gw2.
What comes next?
Giving everyone the same gear sets for pvp?
Handing out the same kind of potions to everyone who joins a bg and not allow him to use others so its,,balanced''?
This is absolute nonsense,the grind for power is a important part of mmorpg tradition and there are already less and less games who have it.
Seems,people like me are running out of games to play because today,the majority of people who play mmo,s consist of casuals who dont want to invest time into their hobby and think everything should be handed to them on a silver plate,they dont know the joy of FINALLY getting a very rare item you worked very hard for,or finally unlocking that amazing skill that motivated you to lvl up for a long time or whatever the game in question has to offer for the playerbase to unlock.
Looking forward to the negative,,critic''of triggered casuals....
Really,i dont have a problem with them under normal circumstances,but they ruin gaming for the people who are really passionate about it,ive seen it happen in too many games already and thats also why im allergic to threads like this.

Tigerseye · January 2019

Sendrik wrote: »

I dont like this new trend,where apparantly,every mmoRPG has to be a moba without real character progression,please dont make this become a second guild wars 2
Having next to no character progression was one of the reasons i left,it was simply a online dress up game.
Even wow adjusted stats for pvp,up to the point where they dont give a huge stat boost anymore.

There are already non-cp bg,s and campaigns,i hope they are not making the game too casual friendly by removing the whole cp system and replacing it with,,non combat perks''.
Its a mmorpg afterall,and a important core aspect of those,is to become stronger over time and it wasnt a issue in the past.
But over the last few years it suddenly became a bad thing for some reason,it looks like people forgot what it means to put time and effort into a mmo,or they got spoiled by the latest moba wave and gw2.
What comes next?
Giving everyone the same gear sets for pvp?
Handing out the same kind of potions to everyone who joins a bg and not allow him to use others so its,,balanced''?
This is absolute nonsense,the grind for power is a important part of mmorpg tradition and there are already less and less games who have it.
Seems,people like me are running out of games to play because today,the majority of people who play mmo,s consist of casuals who dont want to invest time into their hobby and think everything should be handed to them on a silver plate,they dont know the joy of FINALLY getting a very rare item you worked very hard for,or finally unlocking that amazing skill that motivated you to lvl up for a long time or whatever the game in question has to offer for the playerbase to unlock.
Looking forward to the negative,,critic''of triggered casuals....
Really,i dont have a problem with them under normal circumstances,but they ruin gaming for the people who are really passionate about it,ive seen it happen in too many games already and thats also why im allergic to threads like this.

They tried making a game, exclusively, for people like you.

That game (predictably) died.

Clearly, that is just not what most people want.

zyk wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

There goes the end game progression. What seperates the hardcore from the casuals. Lazy fix is right.

CP doesn't separate the casuals from the hardcore. It just separates the ultra-casuals from the casuals. It is already trivially easy to hit max CP.

Well, actually, it mainly separates the new (and returning, from long ago) players from the longer term players, but I get what you mean.